SAM 70+ Gear

This is without a doubt some of the absolute worst SAM advice I have ever heard/read. Its like telling a monk to use staff instead of h2h or for a blm to sub sam and melee. PLEASE no one else do any of this and embarass the sams who actually try anymore than this guy has.

Everybody knows all the hardcore SAMs use a Tachi +1 and Koki onry at 75..

You want to be hardcore, dont you?

Say what you must, but in my experience, ever since that two-handed weapon update and the following Yukikaze, Gekko, and Kasha TP mod update, Hagun is just not worth the price at all. My WSs hit just over 200 more damage with Hagun as opposed to Soboro. Not worth the added ~15-20 seconds for TPing with Hagun. Hell, Hagun only WSs about 50 damage more than Ushikirimaru, and for what more Hagun does on WS, Ushikirimaru far more than makes up for through normal melee hits (Where SAM gets about 40% of its damage over time). I have not used an Onimaru or Shinsoku on my SAM, but from my experience, Soboro > Ushikirimaru > Hagun. Soboro and Ushikirimaru are also easier to get.

I'll make my gearsets public so you can check them later, but I need to check and make sure they are current, since I recently got a few new goodies.

/rant

For endgame stuff:

You frequently have 300 TP to open a fight
You frequently are /THF and waiting on both SATA Recast and your Skillchain partner's TP

If you can only get 100 TP in one minute, then your SAM either misses so much, or is so slow, than your SAM needs a lot more gear adjustment than just getting a new weapon.

/endrant

As far as the 100 TP Tachi: Gekko for 1300-1500 on Kirin, I can only imagine this being remotely possible in a TP-Burn setup with SAM/WAR, Berserk, Hasso, Warcry, etc. I don't care if you have a Hagun or some magical GK that fell from the sky, this type of damage just wouldn't be normal on Kirin without some massive boosting via Bard, Corsair, etc.

My LS has burned some Kirin, but mostly we fight the way just about everyone does. Usually that involves Light skillchains (Kasha), but sometimes also Fragmentation depending on what DD are there. However, fighting it in that style, BLM are by far a larger part of the damage than anyone else.

@ Tanith

As someone who loves to Merit on SAM/DNC using Soboro, I can attest to how sweet it can be. It definitely starts to grow more and more in power if you have GK merits and Critical Hit merits. I tend to pull enough hate to let me know I'm doing my fair share of the damage, but I also am not a massive MP sink for the healers.

Anyone who plans to do this, one of the key things about maximizing damage output of your Soboro is to know your skillchain options with all of the other WS that you would be likely to see out there. You get TP so fast that you can literally close SC for most of the party, netting the extra SC damage (or if you have people who also like to skillchain, you can get in a rhythm where you are opening for them, so they can close for bigger damage). I would say that I get at least twice as many Weaponskills as a standard GK wielding SAM in merits. For posterity and because it's a pet peeve of mine:

Skillchains! Yes, people still do them!

I was hesitant to merit with Soboro because of the low base damage, but honestly, it didn't affect WS damage anywhere nearly as much as I thought it would. Two weaponskills at 600 are better than one at 1000, especially if you can stack SC damage on it.

If you have a Soboro and you are with people you don't know, be smart about it. It is amazing fun, but if you realize that you are being a massive MP Black Hole... that slows down the party for everyone. Always bring another option, which probably also means an alternate grip, too.

The TP Feed is definitely an issue on fights that last longer than merit party fights, so otherwise, I will use it more sparingly on other stuff. Thinking about farming up some Peiste and trying to get myself a Peiste +1 for soloing purposes to this effect.

@ Shindo

re: Third Eye merits. It's -2 seconds per merit, so 5/5 is 20 Second recast with Seigan. I have 3/5 right now and Tier one capped, and as much as I solo and lowman, I am seriously considering pushing that to 5/5. However, sacrificing Store TP wasn't an option for me, so I sacrificed Meditate Recast. Third Eye has saved my butt a lot more times than having a faster Meditate cycle.

This whole thread: tl;dr

But here's my 2 cents. Hagun is JUNK. Yeah, you heard me. I use Shinsoku, and I EASILY outdamage Hagun SAMs. Every once in a while I'll even store my TP to 200%, just to see the difference in damage it would be, and it's minimal. On average I'll do about 50-100 more damage at 200% TP. Now factor in the fact that Shinsoku adds +5 STR.... and has 5 damage over Hagun... which means my 100% WS's probably do more than your 100% WS'. Don't buy a Hagun, don't even waste the time getting it unless you're planning on selling it. Every end-game GK is 100x better than it. Onimaru, Shinsoku, Soboro Sukehiro, Ushikirimaru, Amanokurayimo, Futsuno Mitama... dedicate your time and money to that bunch, not to an overrated piece of junk like Hagun.

P.S. Any SAM that swears by a Hagun are the same idiots that claim Tachi: Gekko does more damage than Kasha or Yukikaze.

I sadly stopped leveling SAM at 68 because of the people that say you're gimp at 72~75 w/o it ; ;

@Tigris: I seriously hope this whole thing was a "whoosh".



Parse it, don't eyeball it. Unless the SAM sucks, you won't win.



No.

Let's use some figures.

D: 75 Hagun, 80 Shinsoku
STR: Let's say 110 for a Hagun user and 115 for a Shinsoku user.
fSTR: 11 for Hagun, 13 for Shinsoku
WSC: 68 for Hagun, 71 for Shinsoku
Pdif: Take both as 2.7 (reasonable if not supremely high).
fTP: 1.975 (Hagun + Gorget), 1.6625 (Shinsoku + Gorget)

Hagun: [(D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * Pdif] * Overwhelm
Hagun: [(75 + 11 + 68) * 1.975 * 2.7] * 1.19
Hagun: ~975.

Shinsoku: [(D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * Pdif] * Overwhelm
Shinsoku: [(80 + 13 + 71) * 1.6625 * 2.7] * 1.19
Shinsoku: ~873.

So nope. Hagun in those situations adds ~102 damage at 100% TP compared to Shinsoku, or ~11.7% more weaponskill damage.



It does. The attack bonus (or level correction "ignore factor" -- not entirely sure yet) is stronger on Gekko than the other two. You should read up on these things before presuming them to be right.

It's always the diehard Shinsoku fans who say that Hagun is bad. Here are the facts:

1. Hagun is your BEST AH Great Katana.
2. At the same time, you are NOT gimp without it.
3. If you are a serious SAM, you should be working on getting one.
4. If you are not using a Hagun yet, Onimaru is a strong choice. Ignore Shinsoku.
5. Pole Grip > Axe Grip.

Read Tanith's post on the last page, it is very informative and very good advice. I would add however that since y/g/k have large acc/atk bonuses, Haubergeon +1 may not be the best weaponskill body for them (but it is far from gimp); Osode on weaker stuff (merits) and Byrnie+1 works very well on higher-end stuff. Haubergeon +1 is very strong still though.

You need to stop eye-balling stuff.

SPOILERS

also raen is god

We always seem to run into each other on forums and stuff when talking about SAM, and I don't even play SAM as of yet :(

On the cost issue though, mostly this game is based around small changes. An endgame item you work hard for could add 3-4% performance at best. If there was an item which enhanced the main component of my job's damage (eg sam's weaponskill damage in the case of Hagun) by a margin as great as 10%+, you bet I would be working hard towards affording that item, high price tag or not.

Oh well I'm so glad you have the money and space to get a 2nd set of gear. It must be murder on you knowing someone out there plays the job differently from what you envision its ideals to be. Since I've offended you so, as a SAM I guess I'll have to do the honorable thing. Will you serve as my second?

I work hard for what I have, and I'm certainly not about to let you or anyone else detract from that. My advice for you, as hard as I'm sure it is for you, is to get over it.



Since Seigan reduces the recast time of Third Eye by half, it also reduces the merit effect the same way, so you're only going to get 25 secs with a 5/5 merit. I wish SE'd missed that detail, but oh well. It'll still save your ***.

You can use all your formulas you want, and sure on paper it seems better. But you can't deny what's seen in reality... my WS's plain old out-damage Hagun SAMs, despite what your calculations suggest. A mathematician will always swear by what's on paper, but an engineer knows application is what counts, not formulas.

By the way, get your formulas right before you try to use them... 100% is 1.525%, 200% is 1.875%.

I would have to agree with Tigris. I use a Onimaru and my dmg is almost the same as a Hagun. Spending about 3m more to do ~50 more dmg for a WS is not worth my money. Just did V2 TP burn and my dmg avg was about the same as the Sams that were using the hagun.

So the question you need to ask your self is... is spending 3m worth an extra 50 dmg to ws?

This thread is fail, or at least most of it is.

The thing about SAM is that it is a versatile job. And you can use a variety of different great katanas. See that some of you are cheap, you see the cost/benefit for a Hagun not worth it. So be bashing the actually results from a Hagun you feel better.

But don't kid yourself. If you parse a Hagun in a bird party, it will simply out parse. Given the assumption the SAMs that are playing are:

1. Not NOOBS
2. Know how to macro in and out gear for TP and WS
3. Playing in a semi-controlled environment (Bird Camp - one mob over and over again)

Now I have a bunch of different great katanas on me at any given time because you have to adapt to the situation. Take a Kirin burn, obviously because most of the time you kite Kirin and go sub THF you have to wait for the timers. This situation would benefit a higher damage katana (Ushikimaru or Onimaru).

And you guys that are backing a Shinsoku, need to start parsing your damage against a real SAM.

Anyways, back to Triet's question (hopefully you can sort through all this crap and find my post here), Ive found this guide here is very useful to figuring out what you should merit in first.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Samurai:_Ultimate_Guide_by_Gregedor

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Samurai_Merits

But remember take everything with a grain of salt, most things you read on these forums are all opinion. I at least parse out damage so I know my numbers.

Someone said something about formulas and theoretical stuff. But all that matters are the true numbers that show up. Look Triet, if you want to be a decent or even the best Samurai, then you will need to parse out the numbers for yourself. You'll find the Hagun is worth it, albeit the extremely high cost. But remember the ENM from where it drops from is incredibly easy to beat.

Good luck on your SAM, I hope this helps.

Oh I forgot one thing, person with the SAM/DNC + Soboro in the meripo, WTF?

And realizing how old this thread is... Looks like Triet is on the right track.

http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=703117

Good Job Dood!

Is this parsed? yes/no. Don't simply say "I see my WSs do more"... have you parsed a situation vs a Hagun SAM over an extended period of time, not just one weaponskill where you do it at 300% and they do it at 100%, and found your weaponskill average to be HIGHER? Furthermore, is said Hagun SAM on par with you in terms of WS gear (it would take a LOT for Shinsoku to put ahead but <_<)?





Gorgets:



100% TP (Shinsoku) = 1.5625 + 0.1 = 1.6625
100% TP (Hagun) = 1.875 + 0.1 = 1.975



Negative.

@ Mahorasama

Listen to your own advice and trust what you can see with your eyes. From what I can tell, you have great gear and a lot of experience, so why not try it.

SAM/DNC with Soboro in a Merit Pt is not as bad as you might think, so don't bash it unless you've seen it done, and done well. It saves the mage a lot of MP, and also functionally boosts the damage of everyone in the party. With Drain Samba II, I can get up to 100 HP drain on a triple attack. Meanwhile, WS damage is usually somewhere in the 500-650 range without a Double Attack (not from Soboro, but from Gear). With Double Attack it's usually 800-1000.

If someone had crappy gear, or wasn't a skilled player, then maybe it would suck. However, I do not have crappy gear, and I don't play like a dumbass.

TP-Haste Gear

Granted, for /DNC, I would have Soboro/Platinum +1 in the weapon/grip slots, whereas for /WAR/NIN/THF would be Oni/Pole

The first time I asked to try this out, I wasn't sure how well it would work, but I went out to a Linkshell merit party. Even I was surprised at both how well it worked as far as damage, but also in how much the assistance I gave, whether actively (Waltz) or passively (Samba), helped the RDM. The next time I was going out to a LS merit, I asked what sub they wanted me as. They all know that I HATE SAM/NIN, and while I'll use it for times when you really need it, I'll /DNC, /WAR, /THF, or /RNG ahead of it 95% of the time. Their answer? "Come /DNC please"

SAM/DNC is not a job for the selfish SAM that only cares about their E-peen. It's a job that is great solo, and more well-rounded in other settings. Little things like ending a fight with 149 TP, so you drop a Divine Waltz on everyone, or Curing Waltz your BRD you just ate a reflected Lullaby, or Healing Waltz a status-affected party member in Nyzul. If you are on top of your game, and see outside the shadow of your blade, there is SO much more that you can do with /DNC than I think many people realize. You can do certainly respectable damage with it as well.

Yes, I don't have a Hagun. Yes, I can afford it. No, I don't plan to buy one soon. I had one on long-term loan, and while I did really like it, I just didn't think it was THAT much better.

Hmmm, all this advice varies greatly. When I asked a SAM75 buddy of mine he said screw attk, just pile on STR, but a bit of the gear you guys are recommending has attk in it. I know you can't really avoid it because attk is good. But how does Askar Korazin out rank Haubergeon? I think the ACC+ would be better than the double attk. And my gkt is capped @ 292(8/8 GKT merits) and I still have issues with acc. (Yeah there is food, but I am beginning to feel that is a waste of money><)

As for the Onimaru vs. Hagun. How would I "parse" it? Is there a program I could use? Damn, but that'd be considered third party program wouldn't it? The hagun too a big chunk out of my wallet and I have Ushikirimaru as back up(it also looks like a hagun, so I could easily fool a couple people). . .xD

I want to start working on Sea Gorgets (Snow and Shadow, for SAM I think right?) But not many people seem to be after them these days. And i was also wondering would Sea Gorget make a greater dmg difference vs. Chivalrous chain? I wish I had all this gear so I could test all this out so I wouldn't have to bug you guys but >_> I don't.

Out of curiousity what race do you play? It seems that everyone I talk to has bad acc problems on SAM and have to use more acc gear AND food just to hit, whereas I only get +16 acc and +5 dex from my setup and I'm hitting just fine without food. The only explanation I can come up with is that I'm Hume and all the other SAMs I know are Elvaan. Does it really make that much of a difference?

Askar Korazin is FAR inferior to accuracy for a TP build; for any serious situation where you are eating meat, the optimal non-usu feet way to maintain a 6hit is the Hachiman Kote/Fuma Sune-Ate route; Dusk Gloves/Fume Sune-Ate/Askar Korazin is INFERIOR to that, despite the 3% haste.

For WS, you want STR over attack unless there is a huge chunk of attack in most cases. It's hard to describe it without going into detail.

Sea Gorget is about 5x as strong as Chivalrous Chain.

Unless you are parsing your parties you aren't hitting fine. It takes around ~410 total acc to have capped hit rate on birds, and ~450 on Mamools (not thieves) so unless you have some how defied game mechanics your acc is pretty horrible.

i.e. :
With 297 GKT skill, 75 dex~ and +16acc you would have 71% hit rate on birds which is 24% under the 95% hit rate cap.

That same setup should net you around 25% hit rate on Mamool Lurkers.

Bottom line is you need to seriously rethink your gear Shindo.

Well I hit fine on birds except for maybe that 5%, and on mobs with that astronomical evasion I usually just switch in my Hauby and do fine.

I don't really know anything about those analytical numbers, I just know what works for me.

The build I posted is my max Haste Build. It certainly sacrifices both attack and accuracy over other gear setups that I use, but that's not its purpose. When you're chaining things that are VT, or in a setting like Nyzul, where the stuff you're killing is mostly DC-T, it's more than enough accuracy.

I have an Accuracy build also, which I always carry with me, in addition to Haste, Evasion, and WS builds, so that I can readily switch if I find myself missing to an unacceptable degree. Typically for me, I'd swap out Fuma for Hachiman and Hauby for Askar as a primary component of that. Used to use Ecphoria/Woodsman before I got Ulthalam's/Rajas. I sold the Ecphoria, but still have the Woodsman. However, it's not that much better than a Rajas for accuracy, and a Rajas adds so much more. I haven't bothered with a PCC yet, although I plan to, but I do carry Spectacles, just in case (I use them /RNG for Barrage anyway). I would prefer Ancient Torque, but I'll likely have Justice before I get one of those... lol

I would hope that most SAM at 75 who use the job regularly do something similar. I know that for Sky gods, I typically would use Meat on all by Byakko, but on Byakko, I definitely go with Sushi. If you have a good Bard at Mamool camps, they know to give you Madrigal for THF and NIN mobs, and will build it into their song rotation, since they should be tracking which mob will spawn next. Even so, you definitely want to use whatever Accuracy and DEX you can muster. I had started leveling SAM about the same time the SE initially did the 2H update (Before they went back and nerfed STR/DEX mods to 3/4), and because of that, it was easier to stack on piles of DEX than Accuracy, especially at lower levels. Imagine Byakko's giving 15 Accuracy in addition to the Haste. Heck, they still give 11+, which is pretty nice.

As far as "does race matter" issue, yes, it definitely does. Sometimes in my LS, when people are bored, you'll hear chatter about comparing base stats (the taru BLM love to poke fun at one of our Elvaan BLM for his low INT) and by level 75, the differences can be quite large.

Hume SAM/WAR at 75 = 70 Base STR
Elvaan SAM/WAR at 75 = 75 Base STR

That's like a free Flame Ring. However, it doesn't come without a cost, and Elvaan do tend to have crappier accuracy. However, they could build more accuracy into their gear where a Hume uses STR, and it will somewhat balance out. There is gear out there that will correct for most racial imbalances for a job, but some races are simply better suited to certain jobs. It doesn't mean that other jobs can't play them well.

So, race does matter. But, you can use gear to counterbalance it.

If you don't have a parser, chances are that you know someone who does that can go party with you and parse. I had an eye opening parse in Kuftal Tunnel around 51/52. If you are on SAM at that level there, use Meat, and suck up all the misses. At that camp in those mobs, with Mithkabobs I was like 70-75% accuracy, while leading the party in damage solidly. With Sushi, I was over 90% accuracy, and was 3rd in damage. There are those magic thresholds that once you cross, you notice a dramatic change. In that case, because it was a high defense mob, the extra push from the meat made such a large difference in damage that even with lower accuracy, it was WAY better damage.

I could pretty much eyeball that, but the guy parsing gave me the actual numbers and it was more dramatic than I'd imagined. However, by 75 and merits, you should be gunning for the 95% mark. It's the same with a 6-hit build. It's better to have a 7-hit build where you can hit all 7 hits almost all the time, than a 6-hit build where you miss one, and it takes you 7 hits anyway.

I play on Hume. With my tp set I have (69 +25 DEX and +28ACC) With my WS set up I have (69 +10 DEX and +20ACC). . .

No, your acc is terrible. It is actually impossible to use the gear you say that you do and have good acc. So like the other guy said, unless your hax the game your acc sucks and you need to revamp that build totally. Also, we know your not hacking the game, b/c anyone smart enough to do that, would have just done it correctly in the first place.

I don't particularly care what an elitist has to say about anything.

As for the rest that are at least halfway constructive, I'm open to suggestions, but keep in mind I haven't the gil for anything fancy. Nor the space, either in inventory or macro capacity. 6 lines just isn't enough, and I'm not about to adopt a windower.

First of all, I'm no where near an elitest, but I do get annoyed when people spread false info. I've worked along time and spent alot of time reading about sam on every ffxi board I could find, just so I could do my job the best I could.

As, far as inventory and lack of macro's I understand it completely as I face those same issues, but you just have to find a way to make it work. Sam has to have 2 builds to be effictive. A tp build and a ws build.

I will now advise you on a setup that you should try to use, that is very budget friendly. I'll list tp/ws gear in that order

Weapon - Hagun (you have this already) GJ!
Sub - Pole Grip (get this, its by far better than any other for sam)
Range/Ammo - If inventory is an issue and you pull often try using a trollbane from ISP, its free and you don't need 2 items. If your not pulling get a smart gernade, also free.
Head - Turban / Wyrven helm - Walmart is free and 5%haste is godly / you have wyvern already
Neck - If you don't have PCC or torque stick with the CC you already have, work to get gorgets for ws, they are for the most part free, just require a bit of time
Ear1 - Bushi full time always since u have it
Ear2 - Brutal this is a must have for any DD and the low price of ABC make it affordable
Body - Hauby You would be perfectely fine full timing this always and selling domaru back for some gil towards other gear. You can keep domaru and ws in it if you like but its really not needed.
Hands - Dusk / AF+1 or Giga brac Dusk is still ~somewhat~ pricey but has dropped a ton since bonanza flooded the market, if you don't have a limbush shell to get AF+1 you can use alky's (best) or only slightly less good Pallas brac. which are very cheap
Ring1 - Woods or Blood or Toau / STR ring Woods is very cheap, Blood is T1 znm drop for free or toau ring is free You already have ruby for ws which is fine till you get a +5 later
Ring2 - Rajas Never take it off
Back - Amemet +1 which you have is fine, also never take it off
Waist - Swift / Warwolf Swift can suck to get but its worth it, you can farm the codex yourself and set up a run. Until then TP in potent or life and WS in warwolf which is dirt cheap
Legs - Since i dont think you have byakko or shura legs, you can use lvl 50 RSE to complete a 6 hit build. Until you have one of the other legs , I would suggest you use this so you don't have to sacrifice haste on the other slots. WS in AF
Feet - Fuma / Hachiman Fuma have also come down in price and are in most everyone's price range, you already have hachiman so WS in those to maintain 6 hit

Merits - 5/5 Med - 5/5 Stp - 5/5 Overwhelm - some combination of shik / bash
I know you like ur 3rd eye merits but going 5/5 Stp for a 6 hit build is just so much more effective. This will increase your overall damage output dramaticly as you will be able to ws much more often.

Really I could flame you more for posts earlier, but, I hate to see a Sam used poorly. Idk how you got your hagun, but if you spent 3mil on it, its being wasted combined with the other gear. Hagun shines more and more with better gear around it. You should strongly consider trying Sam in a different way than you have been, I think that you will like what you see.

Well, the fact of the matter is, SAM has the second best melee ACC in the game. A+ Combat skill + two-handed weapon + high base DEX. SAM is tied with DRK, and only loses to DRG by about 22 ACC, which is really nothing at this level. A SAM with capped GK merits and skill, and using a Bushinomimi will only need to use about ~20 ACC to cap on Greater Colibri without food. That's with Hasso up.

The only real jobs with terrible ACC are PUP and COR, and those are the only two jobs that make ACC+ gear really worthwhile.

66DEX, 297 Combat Skill, 20 ACC, Hasso up, against 341 EVA (Lv.82 Greater Colibri),

73.8% hit rate.

lol

Hell, even the perfect setup (Amanomurakumo and Mars' Ring aside) comes up to 94.6% without Hasso. Full Usukane caps it of course, though (due to having a minor, but slight more number of accuracy points on it compared to the standard "Ace's" mix), so yay.

BUT THIS IS ALL BESIDE THE FACT THAT YOU SHOULD BE USING A POLEARM ON THAT KIND OF MONSTER. :(

Edit: hi5 @ Raen' again.

Acc gear is always worthwhile. If you are not at 95%, adding more increases melee DoT and WS frequency by a great deal.

410~ (I know the number is around here, too lazy to do the calc right now) accuracy caps Greater Colibri level 82, 304 skill will give you roughly 293 accuracy, DEX will give you another ... 50? or so... Hasso will give you 10, so that's about 353/410. Need a little more than ~20.

You say 22 acc is nothing at 75, but that's a difference in 11% hitrate :( 11% less hits, 11% less WS... (yes I know the numbers aren't 100% accurate here and rely on the accuracy before, but it's to illustrate a point)

EDIT: Ironguy again :O joint offensives ftw!