Summong Skill Or MP?
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Summong Skill or MP?
sez teh lv.38 WHM
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Leviathan.Solare said: Quote: During party setups, there is NO excuse for a SMN to not melee. Thats right, I said it. SMN melee Avatar melee = win, because you have 2 high damage people instead of one, and you can also keep MP up thanks to Spirit Taker. Dynamis and Limbus, if a SMN is not meleeing, that SMN isn't doing their job right (unless they are puller). Wow. Thats the most HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE thing. WHM has high club skill. Heck, my GF can do a fair amount with Hexa strike. Does that mean WHM should be DD'ing as well? Or RDM has high sword skill, can get some nice numbers with Mythic Boon. Should they melee as well? PLD! They have MP. We should stand back and just cure. If we pull hate, its ok. We have high DEF, we can take it. SMN wont be able to do much DMG, or even hit anything in the HNM scene, or end game scene. What kinda SMN would be running around in ACC/STR what not gear to even hit anything, over SMN skill, or perp-? Troll. Protips: -Mystic Boon is WHM's WS, and completely justifies DD WHM if your setup is good and the target isn't much harder than, say, a merit mob. Alternate between it and Hexa as necessary, never run out of MP. ***'s intense in merits. -RDM does melee... situationally. You don't seem to understand that word though. -Melee builds can include -perp gear! Unbelievable, I know. I don't know about meleeing everything, but not meleeing at all is at least as foolish if you have the setup for it. Everything else was just you taking ***out of context and isn't worth replying to. -I meant Death Blossom. Was a mistake, get over it. -How don't I understand melee? What is it and assumptions on this forum. You'd rather have a RDM melee'ing, and hasting/refreshing/enfeebling/curing...? -also. How is it out of context? Its the same arguement the OP was using, just with different jobs. Carbuncle.Sterling said: sez teh lv.38 WHM And, that has to do with what exactly? Ohh, wait Sez teh lv.11 SMN. My quote option is being stupid, as usual but anyways..
There is nothing wrong with starting in MP then switching over to more skill once the MP has been exhausted. I use errant for this purpose but Blue Cape would also. I also pet DD in Fidelity Mantle also, have been trying for astute but so far no go.. but would use that for the appropriate JA/BP's. Anyways, continuing on, "During party setups, there is NO excuse for a SMN to not melee. Thats right, I said it. SMN melee + Avatar melee = win, because you have 2 high damage people instead of one, and you can also keep MP up thanks to Spirit Taker. Dynamis and Limbus, if a SMN is not meleeing, that SMN isn't doing their job right (unless they are puller)." Wait what? Can't tell if you're trolling or not sorry. That's no different to saying a WHM should be meleeing in dynamis. Before people bash me I'm not saying we can't, obviously we can, pick a mob and click engage lol. There ya go. But in order to be doing more than feeding the mobs TP you need to switch in a decent amount of acc gear, making us less efficient in the jobs that we are actually there for. Again, I'm not saying you can't do your job while happily clubbing away at some stats, you'll just be doing it less efficiently be it from weaker debuffs, lower hp cures or whatever you want to chuck in there. But back to the topic at hand, the same applies for summoner. Why sacrifice the damage/efficiency of the job you were actually there to do just to swing your staff at some mobs? Yea I get it spirit taker, more mp yadda yadda. But in order to actually connect your WS you need to swap out the gear that would boost the damage of your pet for ACC and so on. In that case you may as well just go as an actual melee job... Carbuncle.Sterling said: As a advocate of Whinja's rights, I'm always supportive of an opportunity for WHM to contribute to helping with damage dealing or closing some rad-to-the-power-of-sick skillchains, but I will say that in a party situation I think its best for the WHMs to stick to curing. Sometimes it can be a huge buttpain to main heal and try to concentrate on WSing and keeping hastes and buffs up, especially if you really should be resting MP. Plus, a lot of the hardcore WHMs I know set their cures and other buffs/enhancing spells to <t> and not <st> to not waste time throwing out spells, so changing all of your macros to <st> and also throwing out some crucial last-minute curebombs can be tricky. As for situations such as campaign, solo/duoing and many lv.75 functions, I absolutely approve of it. Leviathan.Solare said: -How don't I understand melee? What is it and assumptions on this forum. You'd rather have a RDM melee'ing, and hasting/refreshing/enfeebling/curing...? I'll repeat myself: s-i-t-u-a-t-i-o-n-a-l. Never said you don't understand meleeing, I said it's situational and you still aren't getting that. Go look it up, maybe we can get somewhere after that. EDIT: Marzanna: Perhaps the damage gained by pulling out your staff exceeds that lost by sacrificing avatar gear? Situational etc... Fenrir.Nightfyre said: I'll repeat myself: s-i-t-u-a-t-i-o-n-a-l. Never said you don't understand meleeing, I said it's situational and you still aren't getting that. Very situational. Some things you can't melee with, and some things you need to melee to keep MP up. On a side note: I have gained a total of 9 SMN magic skill since my last run-in with Brazen Bones. I have noticed that my avatars kill a lot faster (used to be ~10-12% every sublimation, now its ~15-17% every sublimation) and got it down to 19% before it started to rage (compared to ~30% with the 9 less skill). So whoever said SMN magic skill only affects BPs, is wrong. Because in order to kill Brazen Bones, you have to "Carby" kite it for at least 1 and a half hours. I still believe that SMN magic skill affects Att/Acc/Magic Attack/Magic Def/Def of the avatar. Cause Fenrir started to resist ice damage too.... Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Carbuncle.Sterling said: As a advocate of Whinja's rights, I'm always supportive of an opportunity for WHM to contribute to helping with damage dealing or closing some rad-to-the-power-of-sick skillchains, but I will say that in a party situation I think its best for the WHMs to stick to curing. Sometimes it can be a huge buttpain to main heal and try to concentrate on WSing and keeping hastes and buffs up, especially if you really should be resting MP. Plus, a lot of the hardcore WHMs I know set their cures and other buffs/enhancing spells to <t> and not <st> to not waste time throwing out spells, so changing all of your macros to <st> and also throwing out some crucial last-minute curebombs can be tricky. As for situations such as campaign, solo/duoing and many lv.75 functions, I absolutely approve of it. Leviathan.Solare said: -How don't I understand melee? What is it and assumptions on this forum. You'd rather have a RDM melee'ing, and hasting/refreshing/enfeebling/curing...? I'll repeat myself: s-i-t-u-a-t-i-o-n-a-l. Never said you don't understand meleeing, I said it's situational and you still aren't getting that. Go look it up, maybe we can get somewhere after that. EDIT: Marzanna: Perhaps the damage gained by pulling out your staff exceeds that lost by sacrificing avatar gear? Situational etc... Please tell me what situation you'd have a RDM melee'ing over his/her normal duties. Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Carbuncle.Sterling said: As a advocate of Whinja's rights, I'm always supportive of an opportunity for WHM to contribute to helping with damage dealing or closing some rad-to-the-power-of-sick skillchains, but I will say that in a party situation I think its best for the WHMs to stick to curing. Sometimes it can be a huge buttpain to main heal and try to concentrate on WSing and keeping hastes and buffs up, especially if you really should be resting MP. Plus, a lot of the hardcore WHMs I know set their cures and other buffs/enhancing spells to <t> and not <st> to not waste time throwing out spells, so changing all of your macros to <st> and also throwing out some crucial last-minute curebombs can be tricky. As for situations such as campaign, solo/duoing and many lv.75 functions, I absolutely approve of it. I can agree with that. Although, WHM really shouldn't be tabbing to a pt member as the F1-6 buttons are pretty much a requirement. But I can agree with that :} Fenrir.Nightfyre said: EDIT: Marzanna: Perhaps the damage gained by pulling out your staff exceeds that lost by sacrificing avatar gear? Situational etc... Not necessarily imo, it depends on the level of the mob. And what I am questioning is wether it's worth it on high lvl mobs. Look at how much accuracy melee jobs have to stick on to hits mobs in said areas, Sky, Dynamis etc, while it's not in every slot there is a decent amount there, SMN would need even more since they're starting off 26 skill levels lower (unless of course you want to merit staff...). Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Leviathan.Solare said: -How don't I understand melee? What is it and assumptions on this forum. You'd rather have a RDM melee'ing, and hasting/refreshing/enfeebling/curing...? I'll repeat myself: s-i-t-u-a-t-i-o-n-a-l. Never said you don't understand meleeing, I said it's situational and you still aren't getting that. Go look it up, maybe we can get somewhere after that. As I said above, it's not at all that they cant cure or w/e while DDing, its obvious they can. It's just not going to be as effective as it would be if they were not. You can't really argue with that. While I get that they add extra damage and blah blah, if you've then got to get another mage player to come on that same job because the DDing mage can't land debuffs etc in the gear they're meleeing in, doesn't it make it all a bit pointless. I mean I'm all for melee mages, but there are some places it just isn't appropriate, seriously, for those, get on a DD job if you want too DD. Quote: -Melee builds can include -perp gear! Unbelievable, I know. I don't know about meleeing everything, but not meleeing at all is at least as foolish if you have the setup for it. Please tell me, what gear you could use over decent SMN gear for -perp, pet atk, pet acc, smn skill. My WAR has something like 36ACC from gear to hit mobs in Dyna well, not including my G-Axe merits, and G-Axe skill+. Where on earth can I put that much ACC on a mage job, that isn't going to gimp my pets atk/acc/-perp? Do you even have SMN lvl'ed to comment here? Do you understand how SMN works? How skill/-perp/pet atk/pet acc? Leviathan.Solare said: Please tell me what situation you'd have a RDM melee'ing over his/her normal duties. Leviathan.Solare said: Quote: -Melee builds can include -perp gear! Unbelievable, I know. I don't know about meleeing everything, but not meleeing at all is at least as foolish if you have the setup for it. Please tell me, what gear you could use over decent SMN gear for -perp, pet atk, pet acc, smn skill. My WAR has something like 36ACC from gear to hit mobs in Dyna well, not including my G-Axe merits, and G-Axe skill . Where on earth can I put that much ACC on a mage job, that isn't going to gimp my pets atk/acc/-perp? Do you even have SMN lvl'ed to comment here? Do you understand how SMN works? How skill/-perp/pet atk/pet acc? Nah... Though again, situational. In the situations it's viable, I doubt you'd honestly need too much acc/haste gear to at least have positive returns. PCC, Nashira Gages (which you'd use anyway), Rajas or an accuracy ring... Walahra Turban, Nash feets vs Evoker's +1? Skill and Haste vs perp cost, might be worthwhile... I'll admit, it's been a damn long time since I played SMN, but I did use some basic melee gear when appropriate (I mostly just messed around on it, so this was fairly often) and it was definitely useful. I'm not saying melee everywhere by any stretch, but I do think it has a place. As Korpg said, a very niche place... EDIT: Stolen from Nitsuj. Yeah yeah Nirvana... He's working on one, of course it's gonna be in the set. He was asking for suggestions on improvements at the time, don't know but there may be more effective items in some slots. Chiv Chain I believe was used to maintain x-hit. I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you on that. However there is nowhere near enough ACC in that set to melee where it was suggested, one example was dynamis. That's my point.
You want to melee, that's all well and good, I do it solo on my SMN (Spirit Taker + Sublim = nearly never ending MP pool), in campaign and when messing about with friends. I don't even care if you do it in an exp party, so long as your staff is capped and you have spirit taker. My point is it's just not feasible on higher levels mobs, as has been said its situational, and thats just not one of the situations imo. That was and is still my only gripe with their whole post. The amount of accuracy you'd have to wear to hit mobs of that level would by then start to take away from doing your job properly. This was my only problem with the entire argument all along, disagree if you will, but as I said, the amount of ACC required to melee sufficiently to WS and to do decent damage on said WS on anything higher than EXP mobs isn't worth the sacrifice to other more useful stats. Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Leviathan.Solare said: Please tell me what situation you'd have a RDM melee'ing over his/her normal duties. Leviathan.Solare said: Quote: -Melee builds can include -perp gear! Unbelievable, I know. I don't know about meleeing everything, but not meleeing at all is at least as foolish if you have the setup for it. Please tell me, what gear you could use over decent SMN gear for -perp, pet atk, pet acc, smn skill. My WAR has something like 36ACC from gear to hit mobs in Dyna well, not including my G-Axe merits, and G-Axe skill . Where on earth can I put that much ACC on a mage job, that isn't going to gimp my pets atk/acc/-perp? Do you even have SMN lvl'ed to comment here? Do you understand how SMN works? How skill/-perp/pet atk/pet acc? Nah... Though again, situational. In the situations it's viable, I doubt you'd honestly need too much acc/haste gear to at least have positive returns. PCC, Nashira Gages (which you'd use anyway), Rajas or an accuracy ring... Walahra Turban, Nash feets vs Evoker's 1? Skill and Haste vs perp cost, might be worthwhile... I'll admit, it's been a damn long time since I played SMN, but I did use some basic melee gear when appropriate (I mostly just messed around on it, so this was fairly often) and it was definitely useful. I'm not saying melee everywhere by any stretch, but I do think it has a place. As Korpg said, a very niche place... EDIT: Stolen from Nitsuj. Yeah yeah Nirvana... He's working on one, of course it's gonna be in the set. He was asking for suggestions on improvements at the time, don't know but there may be more effective items in some slots. Chiv Chain I believe was used to maintain x-hit. You said RDM is good to DD in situational. What situation could possibly be better then his ACTUALL job of haste/refresh/enfeeble etc. Did ignore it now, cause I've called you on it. You cant include Narvana. What NORMAL player would have that. If you wanna play that game, I'll go include every god/sea/sky/hnm gear for SMN for perp-/pet atk/acc/skill that would make that stuff stupid to equip over. feet: Why would you want haste 1%/skill 5 over BP-2 and pet ATK. legs: haste 2% over Pet ACC? Riiight belt: Why would you want that over 5 skill? So, you can hit a little better and a little faster, over you PET doing alot more? hands: Yeah I suppose. But, I'll take the Summoner's Bracers over it. body: Riight: You're gonna lose refresh, and -BP for a little haste? This again, interfers with the actual job of having an avatar out. head: Ewww, wtf. Why would you have that at all over Marduks. You've pretty much made your avatar useless, with no -bp gear for a little ACC and haste. Thus, the little dmg you can contribute, better then the dmg your avatar better.. how? If you wanna DD. Be a bloody DD. If you wanna play a mage. Equip the bloody thing right, with gear that suits it. Anyone who puts haste/acc gear over that gear. Shouldn't be called a SMN. IMO, anyone who thinks thats a better trade off, to do DMG and kill stuff with a staff, over your avatar doing MORE DMG, and faster.. Shouldn't be a SMN at all. The slots I left open, are debatable, and people put whatever they want in. edit: Marduks is a little harder to get, so put Evoker's/Summoner's horn or Austere hat. Garuda.Kyree said: Cerberus.Mindi said: Hmm question: would be Aega's Doublet (Pet acc 3 Body) good for smn with carby kiting? While leveling i mean. Pet stuff work for smn aswell right? Edit: Then you can switch to Vermillion Cloak at 59 for a free carby if you have Carby mitts/staff Just lv 52 and Carby is free anyways. So there wont be a point to wear Austere's while carby is just hitting the mob, right? Cerberus.Mindi said: Just lv 52 and Carby is free anyways. So there wont be a point to wear Austere's while carby is just hitting the mob, right? Fenrir.Nightfyre said: A) Nirvana is nice, and by itself makes a melee summoner. Thats ALL the accuracy any SMN needs. Having anymore accuracy would although be better for bigger stuff, its really not needed on the stuff you would actually, you know, melee on. B) Any gear that takes away Perp cost down (lets see here...no YYR, no Royal Redingote, no Evoker's Pigaches +1) will increase your perp cost up alot. While Nirvana is -4 perp, you need -8 perp cost down in order to get free Garuda/Fenrir/Carbuncle/Diabolos (free carby without Avatar's Favor). You got to remember that its not the Summoner who is the damage dealer, its the Avatar. Summoners are there to control the Avatars, and to help migate damage (1k needles anyone? Hell, take hate away from the tank and you will have a happy WHM cause the tank isn't taking too much damage). C) Again, any melee gear is useless for the summoner because they are NOT there for big things to melee. Any SMN who melees Tiamet/Cerby/hell, anything that needs SMNs there, shouldn't actually do damage themselves. They are there only to kill their avatars. This set is what SMNs should look for. It gives perp down to minimum, while keeping SMN skill at max, and gives MP as much as possible, while keeping Enmity away from the summoner itself. Fay staff: Perp-3, Pet:Att+5, Pet:MAB+3 RR: Perp-2, Pet:Acc+15 Don't Forget that Pants = Pet:Acc+10 and Feet = Pet:Eva+10 This set gives you SMN skill 317, keep perp down to lowest possible, and MP+278, with Enmity-16 AKA: This  Korpg, do you have max summon skill merits? Because otherwise (most people) won't be able to have max perp- IE can't take out SMN bracers for Nash because they'd lose 317. I'm jealous of your damn belt, btw. :s That frog hates me.
Remora.Ninian said: Korpg, do you have max summon skill merits? Because otherwise (most people) won't be able to have max perp- IE can't take out SMN bracers for Nash because they'd lose 317. I'm jealous of your damn belt, btw. :s That frog hates me. Which loses something important for my BLM, which is enfeebling. But then again, you can always replace enfeebling magic skill with MAcc. But seriously, my itemset is the best possible combination of perp-/skill/mp ok i my not be the most "INSANE GEARED" smn out there but i have decent merits and due to the fact that i aint a freaking AF burned smn helps i soloed my SMN from 45-75 YES SOLOED!!!! i also am the smn that you see that will DD in dynamis just because i can parse almost better then most MNKs so dont give me that crap about SMN DDs are garbage and the max BP delay is 40 seconds thank you not 45 cuz mine is at 42seconds after i BP ok and ppl that show off their gear for smn here is nice but if you ganna show it off have something nice my fay crozier has a -4BP -3prep and a +6att/ratt the ACP body is nice for SMN for prep and dmg but i personal dont use it cuz my merits make up for it.....and the AF feet+1 yes has a nice -1prep cost but it also has a -4 enmity on avatars and i dont need my avatar losing hate off the damn mob and yes i have lost hate off of mobs because of avatars have an Enmity decrease over time...... The last time i checked if we get hit we are ganna be hurtin
now that i have gotten that off my chest SKILL>MP>-BPdelay>acc/att>Hmp>everything else smning skill is by far the most important thing you have as a smn sense it makes ur avatars stronger and makes them survive longer!
Carbuncle.Babyj said: SKILL>MP>-BPdelay>acc/att>Hmp>everything else smning skill is by far the most important thing you have as a smn sense it makes ur avatars stronger and makes them survive longer! Whats the point in having SMN skill when you have to rest half the run from lack of MP? Whats the point in having BP- gear if you have to also rest half the run? I'm hoping you aren't full time BP gear though, because it is useless during the time when you aren't BPing. Perp- gear keeps the Avatar out. Free Garuda/Fenrir = more Damage over Time because you don't have to rest as much as you would if you had to pay 4~6 MP per tick keeping them out. Nash gloves and Evk Pigaches +1 are both prime examples of that. Royal Redingote also, if you put -2 perp on it. RR is much better than Summoner Doublet because it gives out -2 perp full time than -3 perp 1/8 of the time. You need to find the balance between everything in order to make a great SMN. You can take care of Acc issues by...eating sushi! You don't need attack because you won't hit ***for 0 damage, and Spirit Taker doesn't use Att in it (it uses INT/MND(I think MND also, somebody check that lol) as basis of its damage) and it won't crit on it, unless you come SMN/THF and SATA it. Att to the SMN doesn't do squat. Att for the Avatar though does. So does Acc. Because the AVATARS are your main DD dealer, you are there just to get MP back from every BP you use. Carbuncle.Babyj said: ok i my not be the most "INSANE GEARED" smn out there but i have decent merits and due to the fact that i aint a freaking AF burned smn helps i soloed my SMN from 45-75 YES SOLOED!!!! i also am the smn that you see that will DD in dynamis just because i can parse almost better then most MNKs so dont give me that crap about SMN DDs are garbage and the max BP delay is 40 seconds thank you not 45 cuz mine is at 42seconds after i BP ok and ppl that show off their gear for smn here is nice but if you ganna show it off have something nice my fay crozier has a -4BP -3prep and a 6att/ratt the ACP body is nice for SMN for prep and dmg but i personal dont use it cuz my merits make up for it.....and the AF feet 1 yes has a nice -1prep cost but it also has a -4 enmity on avatars and i dont need my avatar losing hate off the damn mob and yes i have lost hate off of mobs because of avatars have an Enmity decrease over time...... The last time i checked if we get hit we are ganna be hurtin Liar. How did you think people would believe this? That MNK must have had no haste/acc/str at all. Was he nekid? Point to where anyone has said they are garbage. People have just said there is no point, as to do it well enough to make it matter, you've gotta trade off most of the good gear to do it. Read the thread properly, before making assumptions, and REALLY HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE arguements. Quote: I used B.Staff because Fay Croizer isn't on the list yet. So, in essence, I would still have 317 skill with the gear I have. And Pet:Att+5 and MAB+3. Which are my auguments. I use Fire grip because I'm also an endgame BLM, and I need to conserve space. Staff strap is just as good, but more expensive. When you are soloing, enmity will do nothing for you, regardless of + or -. Nash hands full time. Relic (and relic +1) would increase the perp cost to the point that the extra attack and summoning skill that you get from relic would not be justified by having an expensive avatar. Redingote has Perp-2 and Pet:Acc +15. Its possible with this setup to have a 95% accurate avatar, which makes this as good as any good DD out there (and avatars tank better than most PLDs anyway). During party setups, there is NO excuse for a SMN to not melee. Thats right, I said it. SMN melee + Avatar melee = win, because you have 2 high damage people instead of one, and you can also keep MP up thanks to Spirit Taker. Dynamis and Limbus, if a SMN is not meleeing, that SMN isn't doing their job right (unless they are puller). Thanks to Carby's Favor, with this setup you can keep a constant +15 Regen, which would save a LOT of WHMs trouble of keeping /random DDs healed. And you don't need Carby Mitts to get free Carby either (without Favor your perp cost would still be 0). If you are going to want to use BP- gear, only switch them out when you BP. Keep this gear on the other 95% of the time. lol this made my day. So how does your acc and attack fair against demons in xarc? The only thing fire grip would be used for is what? Burn? When your soloing the -enmity will actually help you and the fact that your gaining 20 hp when using staff strap over any elemental grip. Quote: While some people would say -BP time would be included, its not needed most of the time since -BP gear affects one or more of the above. And if you really stack up on -BP gear, your MP would suffer cause of the much higher perp cost. /equip -bp gear /ja bp /equip XXX gear you can view -bp as haste for your avatars. The more you have more dmg you will be able to put out(w/ the appropriate equipment) and the perp cost on the avatar wouldnt be THAT much higher. Carbuncle.Babyj said: i can parse almost better then most MNKs so dont give me that crap about SMN DDs are garbage lolwut? Pics or it didn't happen. I'm sorry nobody is going to believe that :/ Also don't think anybody here is saying SMN DD is garbage, I'm saying that to DD anywhere near well in that situation, you need to sacrifice a lot of gear, which takes away from doing the job well that you were there to do. I don't care how much you wish to argue otherwise, jobs with A skill, still go into dynamis wearing ACC gear, SMN has naturally 26 skill lower, so they would need much more not to wiff and make it anything more than handing the mob some free TP. I'm all for it in campaign, on lower level mobs, whack away till your hearts content, but as I've said many times now, there are some situations where it really isn't appropriate, this being one of them. couple smn macro tips if you use windower / scripts you make, and dont want to mess with spellcast (which i personally dont/wouldnt)
line 1- /console exec "smn-hpdown.txt" (has enough convert to take me a lil below trigger level for conjurer ring (for being /whm the lil extra is ideal on account of regen) along with pumps/loq for the +4% spell casting time)) line 2- /ma "whoever" <me> line 3- /wait 1 line 4- /console exec "smn-idle.txt" (would be basically just my idle set, full -perpetuation and everything else i consider idle gear) magic rage macro will have magic rage stuff, and physical rage physical needless to say (skill > acc > -bp for me) merit rages example: line 1- /console exec "smn-75s.txt" (which will have all the gear change for magic rage, along with with 6 /pet "merit move" <t> commands following it all) line 2 /wait 4 (i keep it on for the full animation (might not have to, i just always have)) line 3 /console exec "smn-idle.txt" using macros like these, you can pretty much do anything/everything on smn with a lot of ease. im sure there are better ideas floating around, and even better ideas yet to be thought, but. more food for thought ::shrugs::.. |
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