Onion Sword III Worth It?

it is an odd 180 from the mentality that spreadsheets, sims etc. provide meaningful data and help guide strategies to this current fear of math and disbelief in proven data. when did this happen?

Theory needs to be validated in real life. Math doesn't exist to disprove reality. You use math, you see that your calculations are sound, then you go and apply it in a real scenario to confirm it.

If you come up with some calculations that, according to you, is much better than the current method, it's on you to prove its practicality. You don't submit a scientific paper and put the burden of proof on the reviewers doubting the practicality of your approach.

Note that the claim being made is so absurd - Haste Samba and Boxstep > War. Simonsess claims that DNC doesn't even need to damage. You can simply bring a DNC instead of a WAR.

He has not tried this method and people that have, have reported that DNC underperformed.

You know what people haven't reported? That WAR underperformed. In fact people have reported that WAR performs so well that he runs into hate-cap issues - thus, swapping Geo for BLU to have better damage distribution.

Come on Simon, you know better than this. You and I both play warrior so I'm sure we've both been in the same situation firsthand. You know just as well as I do that warrior has no trouble getting tp extremely fast on Kalunga even without that last few percentages of JA haste. I'm well aware how significant capping haste is. The difference between 67% and 80% haste is extremely big. But Warrior has capped or damn near capped double attack, while dancer has no native multi attack trait. Sakpatas is also vastly superior to malignance in terms of flat up defensive prowess. If you're wearing malignance on dancer then you get no multi attack from that either, and if you're wearing nyame you're taking too big a hit to your store tp for my comfort. Further, we both know how much extra power fencer adds to a weaponskill. Warrior axe and shield is nearly equivalent to offhanding centovente. Sure it's a little less, but calamity deals so much more damage it more than makes up for it.

I'm not bashing dancer here either. I play and love dancer. I think it's extremely strong and I think onion sword II gives it another layer of versatility and fun factor. I'm all for the sword and I think fast blade II is a fantastic weaponskill and that dancer is an amazing job. But I also know what warrior is capable of. And arguing that "But it needs R30 ikenga's axe" isn't actually an argument. If you need a piece of gear to do V25 content you farm that piece of gear. Warrior should be required to have R30 ikenga's for V25 kalunga. This should be mandatory and they will have it.

The difference between dancer's fast blade II's on kalunga versus warrior's calamity is close to twice the damage increase. Possibly more. And when mighty strikes is up you're looking at calamity dealing quadruple damage more than fast blade. Its true that Kalunga is not a DPS race with the current strategy. But that's because the final 40% is handled properly with a powerful zerg. If you do not zerg him from 40 to zero you WILL run into problems with double dd regen and lahar crippling you with weakness. Dead DDs do no damage, and weakened DDs swing with the speed of horrific slow... so that haste samba doesn't do much of anything when the dino's ultimate goes off.

I think it might be viable to swap dancer for one of the other support if the group does it right. I think on lower vengences the difficulty is low enough that with current gear creep we can push through it with many different sub optimal setups. But V25 is not a joke and needs to be respected. I don't see any world where dancer can outright replace the primary DD and have as good of a chance of closing out the fight. I get what it will do for the bard and corsair. I still don't think it's as good an option.

Dexprozius, would you be willing to tell us how the fight went for them? For what its worth, I'd like to hear some first hand tales from people who have actually tried Kalunga with Onion sword dancer. I assume they didn't win, but did they come close? How much would you say fast blade II actually did. Do you think they could have done anything different to significantly improve their odds of winning? Did they just have some bad luck?

We can argue back and forth for days on this topic, and I think at this point most of us are fairly decided on one camp of thought versus the other. But I'd like some real input from live fights. Doesn't have to be fights that went well. I just want more input so we can get a better grasp of what actually is going on rather than just citing numbers from the maths.

Um...who is doing Savage Blade on WAR in Kalunga?

I'd also like to point out for the 65th time that nobody is suggesting the DNC's WS average, frequency, or total damage would outdo a WAR one-for-one, so it seems really strange to harp on the difference in their personal damage.

I meant Calamity. Sorry, I'll fix that. However



Does it though? Are we not discussing the pros versus cons of swapping out the warrior to bring a dancer instead?. If so, then weighting the pros and cons, both of the support dancer brings as well as the loss of personal DPS it loses seems very relevant to the conversation to me. You get the full package when you make the swap. You have to look at the big picture, and the personal dps is part of that.

If we are not suggesting swapping out the warrior to get the dancer in, what job ARE we suggesting the dancer replace? You guys haven’t exactly agreed upon what composition the dancer included party would have.

It's definitely important to include all factors, but I think it's a bit strange if the exchange goes:

"WAR does more damage than DNC"

"I think DNC damage is lower, but they make up for it with their group utility"

"But WAR damage is much higher"

Not strange at all.

If WAR does 10k dps, and rest of the party does 30k dps combined, then thats 40k dps total

If the DNC does only 6k dps, then they must be confident that they can boost the party's dps from 30k to 34k at minimum to compensate and get at least back to the 40k mark

Thus, yes, the "delta" dps between War <-> Dnc is arguably the *most* important number to examine, alongside the delta dps of the rest of the party

And its literally a question of "Does A > B or A < B?" and thats... thats it, thats all there really is to it lol

Well yes...but again I think it's a very strange way to talk about it. Nobody said "WAR does 200k more damage, I don't think BRD COR BLU will be improved by 200k if you add Haste Samba and Box Step" it was just a comparison of the WAR and DNC WS damage, which is in my opinion just repeating the same point back without actually doing any of the comparisons or discussion.

I agree with the other posters, it would be nice if we had some more real-life attempts at this. Barring that though, we should be considering all the factors.

As to whether or not Simon, Thorny, & I can all agree on what the setup with DNC would be...that's not necessary. We're three different people, we can have three different opinions on that topic. You can debate or disagree with any of them individually, or all three at once if you want. We're not a monolith, holding cult meetings together to support our special snowflakes. I don't even own an Onion Sword.

Maletaru, with the dishonest fake quote to make a point. When it's hard for him to make sense he resorts to partial quotes or uses "" to pretend he is actually replying to an argument that was never made.

Unless you are an absolute idiot, you would have understood very well what Mell was saying. She put the benefits of DNC and the drawbacks of not having a strong push bellow 40%, which is what warriors bring to the table.

Waiting for your next Deflectaga VI.

Probably not in the same ballpark as MS, but dnc does get access to climactic grand pas.

So the math says that 10% JA Haste and Box Steps from DNC are greater party utility than WAR's Warcry and Tomahawk? Because if we ignore the damage aspect (which I don't know how you could), that's what we're comparing.

I trust Thorny, Maletaru and Simon above the majority of this forum posters, However there seems others that like to clash with them to prove them wrong, and that is ok, and they don't realize that they waste majority of readers time with their post.

So is it worh it or not to get Onion Sword?

YES, Worth it!

I actually completely agree... this is kind of the perspective I had on the matter. You can nitpick if you want to take a different job out, but this discussion at its core is shoehorning in DNC to an existing tried and true comp due to a new option becoming available. It's absolutely fair to compare the 2.


They did DNC BLU BRD PLD RUN COR. PLD holds Matamata, RUN tanks. No Proc strategy. This is pretty typical how we've cleared it multiple times for people in the shell in the past, just WAR instead of DNC, and the DNC who's in my sortie static picked it up and was eager to test it.

Problems that they had:
-Incidental fusion skillchains heal Kalunga for a ***ton, you need to be extremely ontop of each others WS's in order to avoid it. They had a few heals unintentionally.
-Damage was quite low. I'm told that the DNC was getting 11-15k's WITH Climactic flourish, and a bit less without. Expiacion's were 25-30ks, so a significant increase.
-Box step was kept on throughout, between PLD and BLU, Waltzes didnt seem necessary at all. I.E... from a utility standpoint, there wasn't much benefit

After seeing the #'s they were getting, it seemed like a waste of time. The hope had been that, sure, it'd be less than a WAR. However, they were hoping to see an overall similar DPS for the team w/ the box step and added safety the DNC would bring, but it seemed to be a significant DPS loss enough so that they timed out at 40%. (Yes the heals from skillchains didnt help)

I dont have a logger of the fight as I wasnt there and this is all 2nd hand information (from people I trust and respect), but I can ask someone who does if you want EXACT #'s

EDIT: Forgot to answer the last part of your question. MAYBE if they chose to do the skillchain + proc method instead of opting to not proc. and avoid Lahar? Then a set skillchain could be implemented to avoid Fusions occurring and slowing the fight down unnecessarily.
Kunel told me that in order to maximize your FB2 damage, Saber dance needs to be kept up, and ideally popped before your WS to diminish your DA decay. Doing so removes dancer from healing completely... so if DNC needs to panic heal because the PLD or BLU are unable for whatever reason, they had better be quick with some macro to cancel the dance... I guess that's not saying much but its a minor thing to point out.
A very stong multi hit build seems to be the ticket for getting higher #'s on FB2 due to the FTP transfer, which makes it inherently variable in it's swings of damage.
I have no doubt it can be done. But you need to work much harder and be alot more careful to get the clear with a DNC on OS3, and that simply seems impractical.

I dont clash with Simon or Maletaru often, although most of the time the stuff Thorny says is nonsense just meant to incite arguments.

That being said, I was WANTING to get the sword, and someone in my circle picked it up before me, so I waited to see what kind of #'s it'd get. I was happy for a small loss in DPS for a weapon that provided unique opportunities for DNC, unique skillchains for existing jobs/comps, and similar Team DPS due to less WS walling... but the #'s were really unimpressive.

The DNC who was testing it on Kalunga in my prior post is my Sortie static's COR, and he was getting very very low numbers on basement bosses and Aminon with the same max buffs we had. He had spent the time the night prior testing w/ buffs on Apex mobs and adjusting his sets to tailor it for the WS mind you. We're talking like 15k when Savage is doing 40k, or on aminon 25k~ish when Savage is doing 60k~ish. I'd rather both the BRD and COR savage at that point

02:32:31[Notail] Chant du Cygne ¨ Demisang?Deleterious
02:32:31[Notail] 15977 Chant du Cygne ¨ Demisang?Deleterious
---
02:32:32[Kunel] Fast Blade II ¨ Demisang?Deleterious
02:32:32[Kunel] 19689 Fast Blade II ¨ Demisang?Deleterious
---
02:32:33[Busterscrugs] Ruthless Stroke ¨ Demisang?Deleterious
02:32:33[Busterscrugs] 49866 Ruthless Stroke ¨ Demisang?Deleterious
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
02:35:57[Kunel] 26763 Fast Blade II ¨ Degei
02:54:56[Kunel] 30087 Fast Blade II ¨ Ghatjot
02:56:19[Kunel] 29367 Fast Blade II ¨ Abject?Obdella
---
03:14:53[Dexprozius] 42765 Savage Blade ¨ Dhartok
03:15:07[Dexprozius] 62602 Savage Blade ¨ Dhartok
03:15:07[Milkinabag] 77365 Black Halo ¨ Dhartok
03:15:08[Miochael] 48767 Judgment ¨ Dhartok
03:15:12[Kunel] 38824 Fast Blade II ¨ Dhartok (Admittedly a decent #)
03:15:13[Dexprozius] 55726 Savage Blade ¨ Dhartok
03:15:14[Milkinabag] 60454 Black Halo ¨ Dhartok
03:15:20[Kunel] 28920 Fast Blade II ¨ Dhartok
03:15:20[Miochael] 28803 Judgment ¨ Dhartok
03:15:28[Kunel] 22082 Fast Blade II ¨ Dhartok
03:15:31[Notail] 47135 Savage Blade ¨ Dhartok
---
03:18:52[Kunel] 23543 Fast Blade II ¨ Aminon
03:19:01[Miochael] 61167 Judgment ¨ Aminon
03:19:05[Dexprozius] 84263 Savage Blade ¨ Aminon
03:19:12[Kunel] 27420 Fast Blade II ¨ Aminon
03:19:12Light: 2124 ¨ Aminon
03:20:57[Dexprozius] 56883 Savage Blade ¨ Aminon
03:21:02[Kunel] 67591 Savage Blade ¨ Aminon (After switching to Naegling, SAME buffs)
03:21:19[Kunel] 47889 Savage Blade ¨ Aminon

- Obviously these are small sample sizes. But we compared it to what we know and do on the regular, and were not impressed

Of course... More testing can be done. But this is not only the experience I've had, but many other players I've spoken to. The #'s just arn't there in the high level end game content.
In more casual content, like Seg farms or Ambu? It might be completely fine.
As a DANCER specifically, is it 'nice to have' as a slashing option? Sure I Guess... But dont expect it to do anything crazy

The point I've made over and over is; Early testing showed it to be MARGINALLY weaker than savage, and had exciting prospects. With many people on it now, the #'s are simply much worse than marginal. I personally don't deem that worthy of picking up UNLESS you're a career dancer with no other jobs. The Horn, Club, Shield are all exceptional... hell even Yagyu which I PooPoo on often is more exciting than what this is offering.

EDIT:
In short, I stand by my statement: Is it worth? NO.
BUT; at the same time, they're all extremely niche, mostly useless, and weaker than a REMA. If you dont care about other options then fly be free and live your life man. Have fun.
The reason I put out my opinions is to better inform others to make their own decision. If they happen to see the #'s I post, or arguments I make, and still think "Hey that's good enough for me to get it", then I hope they're happy.
To me, these revelations were enough to dissuade me and make me pick something else that I'll find more utility in for my day to day play. And you know what? I like many others here am well ahead of an average player, and that's no flex. It's simply true that what I deem weak may be a great stepping stone for a new or middle range player.

I dont really plan to talk more on the matter. This whole "Question" has blown out of proportion anyway and everyone's just eager to argue about it. It's bad enough that each weapon is starting to get their own dedicated thread.

>>Posts no actual math, just dubious theorycrafting
>>"OMG YOU ARE ALL MATH DENIERS!! YOU'RE TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND THE BASIC MATHS"

Try again Thorny, you haven't actually posted ***. Where in this thread are any actual mathematical models? This is just snide insults because you know dumb posters will +1 your posts.

I'm happy to see any math whatsoever, so the false variables can be evaluated, but all you have posted is worthless theorycrafting.

Cite the post where any maths or simulation are presented in this thread. Are you really this easy to delude and dupe? Good job thorny, claim there are transparent maths being denied even though nothing has been shown and people like this will not even read the thread and believe you.

Why would you choose a COR as example for a Weapon that don't work well with Cor? Like the point is to break the wall.

I parsed Against a Japanese War and I was a War too with Onion Sword and I was lower by 2% in parse, and keep in mind that FB2 Don't have Overkill damage same as SB.

Hmmm I see a familiar name in your team ;) Nostalgia!

COR generally suffers from attack problems and Naeg solves half the problem. So Naeg SB can avg much higher if pdif is low.

FB II's biggest pro for COR is that when you solo engaged a mob that needs madrigal to cap accuracy in lowest acc TP/WS set, you can FBII in onion sword, swap to Naeg right after WS and close light with SB. Light should mirror SB damage which equal to 2.5 SB dmg with 2 WS.

Previously fusion>Frag=Light is only doable with marksmanship WS, which can be a problem in high accuracy requirement situations due to melee/ranged buff split, having fusion sword WS can solve this problem.

I had melee/ranged acc buff split problem for years, and I wanted a fusion melee WS for years. And now it is finally available. And I think it created a bit more flexibility overall.

For DNC, I see same kind of flexibility personally. DNC doesn't have Mandalic Stab, so previously light SC option was aeonic Exenterator x2. If FBII avg higher than exenterator (It should with TP bonus offhand I think), then that could be a better light closer utilize weapon swapping.

Overall, I don't think those who only chase the meta and the hardest endgame could understand why some people will want as much flexibility in every situation as possible on their favorite job.

It has nothing to do with how many jobs that you've played, nor wanting to be a snowflake. You just naturally want to prepare for every situation possible for a job you really love because it hurts to see it underperform when the niche situation comes, that's all there is.

I assume in the Kalunga attempt above, the PLD was applying Shell Crusher the same way WAR would have applied armor break at the start? The fight was with Haste Samba up the entire time? And is Ternary Flourish better for Fast Blade II than Climactic? Should not DNC also be stacking Building Flourish with Ternary for WS?

Keeping it short here, but just want to note that it was only a single run (sample size of 1) and should not be taken as definitive or concrete. There are a lot of variables and more testing is definitely warranted. With that said though, I do not believe the sword will be ground breaking to all of a sudden warrant dropping a WAR for a DNC in that content, but it would be fun to experiment a bit more and see what is possible.

Replacing WAR with DNC is obviously dumb and not feasible for a face-smash approach (not removing aura). This bs is so dead in the water Thorny checked out already, pretending there was mathematical proof while providing none, and Simon has provided no maths or sims either.

PLD WAR BLU COR BRD +DNC might be better than GEO if the PLD and BLU can really cover all healing. Would this make it optimal for a no-proc set up? I'm not sure still. Could you not add a DRK in this set up if BLU PLD cover all healing and the aim is a fast as possible kill? The argument would then need to be that haste samba+def down would increase the WAR and BLU damage by more than adding DRK damage with SV songs and rolls. That also sounds like bs.

So... your arguing the BRD should have used it instead? They'd both be attack starved jobs... atleast COR gets the TP bonus gun. In the Aminon example, where the hope is that it does a bit less than the other players Savage, but you make up for it with the wall being lowered more... it doesnt really friggen matter who's doing it. It's not like i'm gonna make my DNC stop doing damage capped Rudra's and Ruthless's. That's simply a nonsense thought.

Cool, you tested it in a parse vs another warrior. I have no idea what content you were doing or referring to. Theres alot of variables at play. Atleast for me, in Sortie, we've done well over 400 runs/Aminon kills, and I have a great understanding what the #'s should look like. The point was to test the weapon in every environment and see if we could find a benefit.

Replys in bold, thanks for the thought out post

I cant comment on the Shell Crusher... But i'd wager probably not? The BLU should be keeping up Tenebral or even going for a Tourbillion during SP push later in the fight, and I know the DNC kept Box 10 up.

I'd love to know that as well, Ternary (triple force) VS Climactic (crit force). I'd even concede that Ternary is probably better and I dont expect they gave it the attention it deserves. That could be something we or others fiddle w/ in the future.

Like I said earlier if people would prefer I can get someone who was there's logger and review the #'s for science. I'd even be happy to go in myself with majority of those who went last time and give it another swing for science. I'm merely stating what was found from their run, and sharing the disappointment they conveyed with it.

This is completely wrong approach though. DNC is not there to replace WAR's damage. It won't be even close. It should completely take over curing from BLU, so BLU is free to DPS only, because BLU is the main DPS in that setup. BLU COR and BRD should all focus only on damage. DNC is there to support cure, provide samba and box step and spam FBII to break WS wall.

Also question, did they setup Armor Break from RUN with Rayke?

sim numbers based on 138lv Crawler with 3000 def (because idk Kalunga stats). SV honor, madrigal and 3 minuets, chaos and samurai rolls and Armor break:

R30 Ikenga axe Calamity WAR:
regular DPS: 7900
with warcry: 8300
with WC and MS: 11800

R15 Tizona/thribon BLU:
regular DPS: 9500
with warcry: 11000
with boxstep and samba: 11900

Onion single wield DNC:
with boxstep and samba: 4300 This is without flourishes, which adds significant weight to the WSs. I would say realistically it would be 5000.

Single wield Naegling BRD:
regular DPS: 4900
with WC: 6400
with haste samba and box step: 6495

Single wield Naegling COR:
regular dps: 5900
with WC: 7300
with HS and Box: 9250

Total with 25%DT:
WAR+BLU+COR+BRD: 21150
with Tomahawk: 23625
with WC: 24750
with WC and Tomahawk: 27225
with WC+Tomahawk+WAR MS: 30112
Keep in mind tomahawk will be up 60% of the time and Warcry like maybe 30%. Now this is super unrealistic dps for BLU who also cures and it's a huge loss, because if he only dps, he would be the main DD. BLU in this setup will drop his personal dps to like 7000, so regular group DPS will be more like 19k and 21k with Tomahawk

Total with 25%DT:
DNC+BLU+COR+BRD with haste samba and box step: 23958
Now even if you take 50% of DNC dps, because he will focus half his time on curing, you still get 22.5k dps 100% of the time

This was my last post in that matter, because I really don't have time for this. Cheers :)


EDIT: I will just address this, because I haven't seen it before I started writing. To apply def down on Kalunga you most likely need detonation SC or Rayke, because I think it has 10% resist tier against wind, so normally hit rate is capped at 5%. RUN should do Rayke and 3000TP Armor Break to apply 50% duration resisted effect that should last almost until next Rayke is up and it should be then reapplied. BLU attempts are worthless because even if you hit it during Rayke window, it will last only 45sec and Tenebral is weaker effect anyway.

Ok dude. Can't wait for the video.

Given the meticulous nature of the prime ws thread, it’s actually insane to me we’re this deep on a ‘new’ weapon/ws and no one has posted some actual data. And what’s more, it must have been done before as the ftp and wsc are known on bg wiki.

Surely there must be an OS3 owner out there who understands how to gear a ftp replicating ws and take down some parse data vs a relatively high level target with varying buffs. Perhaps even a savage/rudra’s control.

Thanks!

This is as transparent as Thorny is with the IRS.
No gear sets shown, etc. How can we know you haven't biased the *** out of it?