Onion Sword III Worth It?

Drk is not off-meta. Drk was actually the job used by the first few clears. It's the one we used. Unlike DNC, Drk is a super-strong slashing damage option.

Most groups use geo over blue mage though. That was what I was referring to. So the argument that dancer would have performed better in that setup than the blue is very valid.

Well not really since GEO and BLU offer defensive support where DNC doesn't.

It's the stupid arguments in FFXI that I enjoy dunking on. People here are so desperate to be special that they try to go off meta just to be different.

People settled for BLU-WAR because it worked. It made people's lives better. I remember when people suggested BLU and I was a little hesitant because it was a job I never played and didn't know what it would bring to the table. But it brought damage and survivability. Completely trivialized the fight.

Replacing WAR for DNC will make the DPS a problem and you gotta be very deep in the copium zone to think that haste samba and boxstep can make a group outperform a WAR.

Our last Kalunga clear we had 5 mins left on the clock. Warrior is cheap, trivial to build and useful. So, again I ask, why are you trying to bring DNC to Kalunga? Are you running into DPS problems? Healing problems? Survivability problems? You dont have BLU-WAR-DRK-SAM?

There are several reasons not to bring WAR to an aminon fight. People can kill aminon with a stage 3 prime with a whole lot of time left on the clock.

The answer to both question is: for fun! Not because it's better.

I'm not denying math or theoretical scenarios, just curious. If this is actually true, then you don't need Onion Sword III for this. So why hasn't anybody ever suggested or tried this before these weapons were given out? Like for 2+ years, surely someone could have reasoned that bringing DNC for full time samba, heals, and capped steps was worth the loss of DPS from war/warcry bonus on others/mighty strikes. DNC can create TP out of thin air also, so it's not suffering in that department either.

They were. There were already people hitting for zero using reverse flourish to box10 and samba.

More of a weakening KI one type thing instead of go for the win in one KI thing

Most groups certainly don't use GEO over BLU. When V25 came out, people used GEO's and struggled, and most teams converted to BLU and found success. If you still ran GEO and won, you were in the minority, and the modern strategy has changed.

If you were to cut a job for this theoretical scenario where DNC is now Kalunga viable, it'd be the WAR as most pointed out. Sure the support it provides would help.... would it beat Warcry and DPS? debatable/unlikely

That being said, LS mates HAVE tried Kalunga25 with the DNC OS3, and were not impressed with the damage output or results.

4 pages later and Thorny hasn't explained where DNC is in this theoretical optimal Kalunga V25 set up.
Is it
PLD BRD COR WHM WAR DNC
PLD BRD COR GEO WAR DNC
PLD BRD COR WAR BLU DNC
or other?

Same with Mboze. Is it
BLU BST PLD BRD COR DNC?
or other?
DRK BST BLU PLD COR BRD - this is surely better with an extra absorb TP and much stronger slashing damage than box step would add to the other dd?
Swap 1 of the DD for WHM if needed.

I mean, you just admitted, you were acting the same way against BLU as you do against DNC now, but you wasn't right. To make it funnier, you are arguing with the same person ;)


I have no idea why you think that WAR is strong in no subjob situation without Samba. You have only 67.75% Haste. Sure you have everything else and during 1+ minute of MS your dps is really high, but overall for the rest of the fight you are just weak. It's even more problematic when you consider you ideally need Ikenga's axe R30, because using Savage will wall both BRD and COR and whatever gain you will get from switching from axe to sword, you will lose more on WS wall.
Warcry isnt that strong too, because WAR with Ikenga is already at some ridiculous effective TP threshold (on like 2800 avg) and COR and BLU are already using +1250TP bonus, so while they still get nice bonus from Savagery, it's not as impactful as you think. It's also still a buff that even with all the cooldown resets going on, wont be up even half the time.

With Tizona's BLU Ikenga's WAR BRD COR scenario, BLU has higher DPS than WAR (outside of might strikes window) if he only focus on doing damage like WAR. If you put BLU in scenario with box step and haste samba, it's not eve close, BLU is miles ahead of WAR who lacks those buffs/debuffs.

Also even you admitted, that fight with Kalunga is not a high DPS check, yet your only argument for WAR + BLU over DNC + BLU is lower dps (which isn't true, but I just try to understand your logic).

PLD RUN DNC COR BRD BLU for Kalunga
PLD COR BRD BLU DNC 6th slot is very flexible. I would say NIN with Yagyu would be optimal, because you can tank Mboze with Shadows and deny it even more TP this way and potentially maybe land Yurin too, but it can also be RDM, WHM, GEO etc.

Are we talking about breaking aura strat or ignoring aura though? Cus jobs are used to ensure SC in the first strat and not the 2nd where it is important to avoid walling. I think DRK might be better than WAR if we are talking the latter, but less so the former since there is a repeating sc with axe+sword to break it.

Nah bro, of course a MNK using Shijin to apply plague then using Onion Sword is the best strat ever

The lengths that these advanced mathematicians would go to feel special.

Replace your chad WAR for a DNC on Kalunga, lol... trust me bro, the math is there!

Yeah, I remain very unconvinced. PLD BRD COR WAR BLU DNC seems better at a glance... if not breaking aura and trying to face smash it, but then a proper healer helps so changing the DNC for WHM seems way safer, but then that becomes too unacceptable for the very people here who used it to get clear that are now angry at the thought of anyone using optimal set ups.

Breaking on Kalunga and ofc Mboze shouldn't TP even once. Breaking aura is really easy with BLU and DNC because you can wild flourish > fast blade > reverse flourish Circle blade > blu circle blade > COR leaden salute > chain affinity Quad. Continuum. This is a 6 step Darkness that requires only 3 jobs to have initial 1000TP, so it's very easy to proc !! before feeding enough TP for Kalunga to make a TP move and spawn fetters. 7 step shouldn't be needed, but technically you can make first circle blade on BRD instead of reverse flourish on DNC and you can switch to Dagger on DNC and reverse flourish and do Rudra at the very end for 7 step double darkness.

There was a time, when people knew how haste works in this game and knew that big peepee WSs with small peepee frequency were mediocre at best.

So there were a few different ways to do this, especially because in the beginning we could only have 1 WS every 10s. GEO was used because Indi-Barrier provided protection COR and BRD from the add's melee hits while GEO-Fury provided a much needed attack boost to maximize that damage from that one WS every 10s. Then the 10s WS wall was removed, GEO is still useful because of the protection and damage boost it provides, especially with the sub 40% rush.

Of course that setup has one problem, the WAR (or DRK or SAM) can hit hate cap before the dino dies, causing them to pull hate, adds go everywhere and people get dispelled or killed. By inserting a BLU over the GEO we can get similar or better defense bonus's via mighty guard while spreading the damage out more and preventing the WAR (or DRK or SAM) from hitting hate cap before it dies.

Are you trolling now? You must be trolling at this point.

BUT WAIT GUYS, WHY STOP HERE - WHY NOT USE THF TO PLANT HATE ON UR TANK AND SNEAK ATTACK FAST BLADE 2?

So you're gonna get it to 75% without a TP move with just BLU? and in a reasonable time to 0% it in 15mins? ehh

I'm sorry but I don't understand how you came up with that conclusion. You mean this is too complicated for you? You realize I gave you like full skillchain to break like 4th aura. If using reverse flourish and chain affinity is that complicated for you, you can simply use fast blade <> Numbing Shot for infinite lv1 skillchain. Just switch gun on COR for some ilvl one.

None said to do it in one KI.
Typically Mboze clear is down with 2KI. First KI you can for example use BST, GEO, SMN, DRK/SAM/WAR, WHM, RDM. Just tank and DD on DRK/WAR/SAM and reset TP with BST and SMN. Then you start KI2 at 75% and go for add being TP battery strategy.

Kalunga has always been a 1KI though.... why change that just to shoehorn a job in because a new toy came out? Seems like we're jumping through hoops for nothing... the job already is BiS in another piece of content.

If slapping the sword on means you can do WAR damage and provide better utility, then it'd take that spot. From what I've been told by people who attempted the fight with this in mind however, is that the damage simply isnt good enough as it was expected to be from testing (vs Apex mobs?).

So now you guys are talking about cutting the job that holds the 2 Matamata? so you'd rather they just wail on the DDs and the DNC and BLU can just manage the heals? This all seems really stupid.... you're just making the fight harder on yourself. I have no doubt it can be done, but why? to what end? To prove a point?

People will take the path of least resistance, in any case.

Reading comprehension is insane here...


So um...I assume you're responding to this from Simon but...


None of this is telling you to put 2 KI for Kalunga. He's responding to two questions. First is about Kalunga (so he lists a single KI Kalunga) and the second is for first KI Mboze.

Then there's more discussion about the Mboze setup he listed (IT HAS THE WORD MBOZE IN IT) and he responds about how MBOZE is a 2 KI fight. None of this was about 2 KI Kalunga, ever.


What makes you think WAR is the key to holding matamata? A WAR using Berserk has the incredible DEF needed to get hit by a matamata? Is it their...HP...? I mean...it's not as though every party member won't have 50% PDT so I'm not really sure what makes WAR uniquely qualified to get hit by a turtle.

You are confused. Kalunga would still be one KI. My answer about 2 KI was only in specific to Mboze.

I also have no idea where you have seen I cut job that holds Matamata??

PLD holds both Matamata with literally 0 risk involved.
RUN tanks Kalunga.
COR+BRD+DNC+BLU kills kalunga.
PLD+DNC cure everyone.
BLU only do emergency heals, because he is a main DD in this setup. Ofc he also provides Mighty Guard for entire fight.

DNC tests on Apex mobs were with subjob at capped attack and with Centovente, but you are completely missing the point here. DNC is not here to be a main DD or to replace WAR's dps by himself. He provides some mediocre DPS on its own, but offensive wise, he is in this setup to massively boost the DPS of BRD, COR and BLU and break WS wall with FBII, so BRD and COR can both use Savage Blade without penalty.

In the past, people demonstrated a method's superiority by outperforming other strategies in real-world scenarios, not just through theoretical calculations. For example, you can prove that a DNC can outperform a WAR in a Kalunga fight by competing and winning with, say, 6–7 minutes remaining.



But I know you won't because that's not possible. So you will sit here and spit math in a desperate attempt to win the Goku vs Superman argument.

I won't test that, because I don't have 5 other people willing to do this in a limited time frame I have to play. I can barely make time for Bumba attempts with my static. If it was a matter of doing it solo I would. I was the first person testing Onion in game and providing results here despite knowing the outcome from sim.

Also I have no ambition to seek acknowledgement from every single person on this forum. I provide arguments and data and if someone doesn't like it, because it's not proved in game, then so be it.

There's a pretty clear trend here; the people who understand math believe DNC has a place in the ideal strategy. Coincidentally, most(all?) of these people have also cleared Kalunga V25.

The people who don't understand math seem really upset that math is being used. They primitively beat their chests and cry that they've done it so they know best, ignoring that we've all done it too. Understanding calculations that an average kid could do in 6th grade does not mean people don't also understand the actual fight.

We know the proportional attack speed increase from 10% JA haste. We know the proportional ratio increase from 23% defense down. We know the parse splits on a fight. There is a solid argument to be made that DNC's damage boost to the other party members is substantial enough to make it ideal, backed up by calculations that most would accept as true. That is the argument being made by Maletaru, Simonses, and myself.

It cannot be stated as absolute fact without doing the fight, I agree. However, it's been less than a week since the weapons were released made widely available, and less than a day since this argument kicked off. Groups that have already done the fight are not on standby to do this setup immediately just because someone disagreed on the internet. The idea that just because it hasn't been proven yet means it can't happen is patently absurd.

Now, I get it. Could be totally wrong and it's not at all viable. If that's the case, there's some disappointment to be had. But, the evidence in favor of it is easily substantiated with math that everyone seems to accept when they're consulting job guides and spreadsheets to get their ideal setup. The people arguing against it have presented no evidence besides repeatedly stating that the current most popular strategies work. No ***.

You know what else worked? Kiting Kirin for 2 hours with SMNs and RNGs worked. Using 4 healers to prop up a turtle PLD for Byakko worked. Bringing a full 18 to Apollyon worked. Strategies change over time, something being currently accepted as best does not guarantee it will remain so.

Confidently stating that something untested cannot work is just dismissive and sad. I can't help but feel that it's still coming from a FOMO after having selected a different weapon. After all, there's rarely this much hate over other new strategies. Every strategy was new once, and almost all of them were planned 'on paper' before they eventually won.

Anyway, I doubt of the people arguing against it are still reading at this point. It seems like they haven't been for most of the thread, anyway. I'm done here; I'm not stupid enough to keep taking bait.

Yeah yeah, according to Putin, they would take Kiev in 3 days. Look at how that turned out.


What a BS non-argument to make. If you want to prove that your strategy is better you have to actually go and beat the content with your strategy and report the numbers.

If I say that WAR-BLU is better is because a plethora of people have been using it and it has worked REALLY WELL. MY last Kalunga kill was a walk in the park using WAR-BLU and we killed it with something like 5 minutes left on the clock.

If I say that I have a better strategy to beat Bumba that's much more efficient than SCH Kaustra, it's on me to prove that that's actually the case.

I'm barely paying attention to this, but I dont see where Thorny said the DNC strategy is better.