Onion Sword III Worth It?

Kalunga v25 WAR and BLU are near perfect for, so no place for DNC.

However, DNC/Onion would work great for KI1 Mboze.

I only know what i know from what I've heard from groups who have already tried it. And I'm only analyzing the kalunga fight by its mechanics

• Tank, Whm, Cor, Brd, Geo are all hard locked in. That leaves you with one additional slot. So it's either warrior OR dancer. You can't have both.

• Dancer Pros -- Box step, haste samba, and waltzes
  

• Warrior Pros -- Warcry, Mighty Strikes, berserk, Fencer Ikenga's axe build

• Dancer Cons -- Fast blade II is a lot weaker on kalunga than savage blade and calamity. I'm sorry, but it just is. You can't dispute this.
  

• Warrior cons -- Can't provide party support outside tomahawk/warcry

When I look at the pros and cons side by side my conclusion is that dancer is a viable option for Kalunga, and I think it would shine especially at lower vengences where there is no double add regen and where native -DT is lower. I highly question its viability on Vengence 25 however. Perhaps some people will show otherwise in time.

If you have greater understanding of the stats at play here, please share with the rest of the class. Mell added value by stating that there is extra benefit to having mighty strikes at the end of the fight. That's a reasonable comment that can be taken into consideration.

However, the issue with taking one person's bad experience as fact is that evolving strategies take time to pan out. Did mell's group still use every other source of defense down? Did they add aria or additional PDL to benefit from the drastically higher ratio? Were the BRD and COR top notch? These are factors that aren't on paper, but they play in both directions.

Not to mention that one of the problems in Kalunga V25 is WAR outperforming the other jobs so much that it hits hate-cap before the end of the fight. So, the second DD has to do it its job in terms of raw damage. It's like COR vs RNG in Arebati. COR can't lag behind.

People throw fancy spreadsheet numbers at arguments like if something works on Excel it will deff work in the game.

I chose air knife. I didn't get onion sword. However, my oddy group was talking about someone among our ranks who did pick onion sword and they are a high level player who is capable and competent. The reports were that fast blade II's damage on kalunga was unimpressive. And I believe them. I understand the math behind the weaponskill and why that would be. Kalunga is one of the tankier tier 3's, and the difference between a ftp transfer multi hit weaponskill versus a 1 hit all in-WSD boosted attack will show here.

Kalunga's mechanics demand a full out zerg at the final push. You have to overcome double add regen while lahar is going off. That is a role which warrior is better suited to than dancer. Mighty strikes is imperative for that final push. But I have little doubt on lower vengences dancer would be better than warrior. It's only V25 I'm talking about here.

Does fast blade 2 possibly have an attack penalty?

PLD is the WHM for Kalunga. So no need to double up.

WAR,PLD,GEO,BRD,COR are locked. Leaving one more spot. We used BLU at the suggestion of Maletaru and Kalunga went down like melting butter.


We have an Onion sword in our Sortie group. It did not do great for our COR/DRK. The only upside was

I just did. Kalunga is not an evolving strategy. BLU-WAR has proven to be the safest - guaranteed kill strategy that doesn't require good auras or good resets.

One of the key issues with Kalunga is WAR outperforming other jobs to the point it pulls hate. The second DD can't be a sleazeball with onion sword. It has to be a chad BLU with mighty guard and good damage!

The passion is strong here. I hardly ever post but I read all day while running my business.

Mostly for my curiosity and I'm sure others would like this too.

How difficult would it be for some of our top tier players to take some time to test these setups on the actual fights? I would love to read the results and I'm sure it would help others decision as well.

I enjoy reading the arguments but it would seem alot of the arguments could be avoided if some test were done.

Just my 2 cents, regardless continue on Fam going back to work.

No, it doesn't. But when you're fighting kalunga the differences will show. Warrior is using a fencer build, and just like savage blade, calamity is a 1 hit attack, so all of nyame's WSD, all of the accessory wsd, your cape your cornelia's ring, your epamonindas ring, your thrud earring.... it all applies to just that one hit. Fast blade II only gets that benefit on one of its two hits. And fast blade II wants to multi proc. None of those added multi proc hits benefit from WSD. That's not an insignificant amount of damage lost on very high defense mobs, which V25 kalunga absolutely is.

It's been tested. It sucks for Kalunga. It sucks for segfarm. It sucks for Sortie.

These events are not new and Bonanza weapons have nothing outstanding to offer. This gives you the freedom to pick whatever weapon you want. You aren't gonna miss out on anything.

I'm not sure if we ever won with WAR PLD BLU BRD COR WHM, but we alternated between that and WAR PLD GEO BRD COR WHM. My strategy writeup says WAR PLD GEO BRD COR WHM.

I heard of some groups running the BLU strat and was thinking the DNC could take the BLU's spot (or the GEO spot). I've never suggested DNC would out perform WAR in segs or in Kalunga. I've never suggested replacing a WAR with an onion DNC. You can argue with that strawman all day if you want, but it's not my point.

If you want to know why DNC would be good for Kalunga, I'll tell you why DNC would be good for Kalunga. If you want to ask why DNC would replace WAR in Kalunga, ask that question instead.

If you misunderstand or misinterpret what I said, that's not my problem.

10-4, never saw any results just a lot of arguments only reason I chimed in at all, feel free to skip me sir.

Was bored and wanted to join in,

Except that you didn't answer the question at all. You can't list benefits without tradeoffs. Why is smner not considered for Kalunga? It has benefits, also, right? Can you list them for us?

You saying here is "$1000000" is different than you saying here is "$1000000" but you have to chop a foot off. Or you really thought that nobody knows that DNC has box-step and haste samba? Is that how you go about FXIAH posts? You presume people don't know the absolute basics of a job? Cause I argue giving people the benefit of the doubt. I presume people who are discussing, say, BLU vs DNC will know BLU has mighty guard and some other useful blu magic.

Again, you are just deflecting, like always, lol. Otherwise you would have taken Kalunga fight mechanics into consideration and arrived at the same conclusion - DNC is just not meant for that fight.

Edit: Lastly, you replied to a comment that was making a direct comparison between WAR and DNC. It's you replying to my post, not me replying to yours. The conversation is around how DNC cannot outpeform SAM-WAR in those situations.

Now now, let's not make blanket statements. Onion sword is actually pretty amazing in seg farm. Dancer would be able to do some crazy damage in seg farm with onion sword II. It's a perfectly viable option and a very good one at that. I'd take an onion sword dancer to seg farm any day. I just prefer to play warrior in seg farm because I built stage 5 laphria and I love playing with my great axe. Not many others are in my position here. Seg farm is generic content and it's not hard to nearly full clear with our current gear for most setups. But then you're picking your moogle weapon just so you can farm segs on an otherwise off job better. Is that a viable reason to pick the sword? Yes actually, it is. I think all of these moogle weapons are overrated. My air knife is really nice and fun to play with, but centovente is still the stronger offhand.

I actually think the only weapon that actually pushes the envelope to allow a job to do more damage than they otherwise could with existing options is icebrand because it gives blue mage a higher nuking power than any other offhand. But how much does that really change things in the meta?

TL;DR pick a weapon that looks fun. Have a lot of fun with it. Onion sword is a great option to play around with. It probably doesn't change much about the meta though, but i don't think any of the alternatives really do either.

Genuine question: is English not your first language? Not trying to be derisive here, but you constantly have problems with having a written conversation.

If I ask you, for example:
"Why would you eat McDonald's?"

I'm not expecting you to tell me about the cons of eating McDonald's, or the advantages of eating Subway. I'm asking you to explain the positive things you like about McDonald's that make you want to eat it.

So for another example when you ask:

You're not really asking for a deep, nuanced explanation of all the factors surrounding the Kalunga fight. You're asking me for the positives of DNC on Kalunga. Which I gave you.

If you think it's obvious that DNC has Box Step, Haste Samba, and Waltz...then don't ask a stupid *** question?

I don't think English has anything to do with it. When you are being dishonest, like you are, you typically take the conversation into different directions when you see that your argument is stupid. YOU JOINED A CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW DNC CAN'T OUTPERFORM SAM AND WAR IN SEGFARM AND SOME ODDY BOSSES (made it caps to try to prevent you from deflecting).

Your response cannot be "DNC has haste samba and box-step" because the discussion is a comparison. A comparison cannot list benefits without trade-offs. This has nothing to do with language barrier, this has to do with you jumping into the middle of a discussion like a blind child and deflecting.

At this point I fail to understand what’s this guy’s business in here. He doesn’t have the weapon, he doesn’t play dnc, he’s flaming for no apparent reason. Who hurt you?

To be fair, you could take the dancer in place of say, the geomancer. I could see that. Tank, Dnc, Cor, Brd, Whm, War. Would it be worth bringing dancer and losing out on geo's bolstered bubble in the final push? Can't really say. It could probably work though. I just don't think you ever want to lose the mighty strikes zerg. v25 is all about getting over the final hump from 40% to dead in a timely fashion. If you can do that though, there's a little bit of wiggle room to finagle a few things.

The discussion is never if DNC works or not. The discussion, started with me comparing DNC and other slashing damage jobs like SAM and WAR.

If you guys want to go on a tangent it's fine. That's Maletaru's route to winning argument. I even said I wouldn't mind DNC coming to segfarm, or even trying to make it work on Kalunga.

The argument is that it will never outperform other slashing options like BLU, SAM, WAR on oddy content and Onion Sword did not change that.


Lol.. Except that what you provided was an example of how you dishonestly go about people's posts just to make a point.

A more accurate question is "Why go to Mc Donalds (DNC)" when "Five Guy's (WAR-BLU-SAM) hamburger is much better"?.

The answer is cannot be "because Mc Donalds has chairs". It has to be something that Mc Donalds offers that's better than Five Guys. I hope it helped.


Are you replying to Maletaru? Because I do play DNC, I do play WAR, I have beaten Kalunga V25 many times and the discussion is about Onion Sword, so what's the problem?

I don't think anyone here ever said they thought it would. I don't see a single post where anyone said dancer would put up bigger numbers than warrior. Everything revolving around the dancer discussion is that it provides better support, and that onion sword gives it a way to put up respectable slashing damage while doing so. My own bullet points highlighted that, and I questioned whether adding that extra support would be more or less beneficial in the long run, because you're making a tradeoff to improve sustain while potentially reducing your ability to close out the fight. "Respectable" damage is not zerg damage. And on the last 40% that matters a lot.

This is the kind of hot take I'm trying to dispel but apparently I'm being a bit too subtle and not clear enough.

When I said that overkilling by 20k is not a big deal I meant "winning the parse by stacking useless damage isn't important"

When I talked about other ways they could contribute, like Jig, I was explaining how the parse (or number of mobs killed) is not the only measuring stick. The BRD's kill count isn't as high as the WAR, right? But they contribute in other ways...like a DNC does.

When I said that DNC contributes Box Step, Haste Samba, and cures to a Kalunga fight I was pointing out how their contributions would be beyond just their parse, and even if they didn't put up the same WSavg or total damage, they could still contribute more TO THE GROUP and to the kill than other jobs, like GEO or BLU.

You mentioned that BLU is great because of MG and also...other spells...Would you like to enlighten us as to what those are, and how they contribute? Since I didn't go into detail about BLU vs DNC, let's have your opinion instead. Is it just MG and Expiacion vs Box Step, Haste Samba, Waltz, and FB II? Because...that seems like a pretty obvious win for DNC, to me...

You will take my bushinomimi from my cold, dead, arthritic from playing XI too much yet still clutching fake earrings fingers.

Tried to catch up on this thread. Was 1 page when I saw it, about to hit 5 soon. Found a quote that accurately describes the last 4 pages, if you wanna just save time

I bet Avesta could solo Kalunga v70 using Onion Sword on MNK

That's the problem with dishonestly taking people's post out of context. Because I myself spoke about the feasibilities of DNC. But the latest chain of posts is replying to a post that compares DNC and other slashing options directly.

You are not saying DNC is better than WAR and I am not saying that DNC is unfeasible or useless in these scenarios. But that was not the point to begin with. The point was that Onion Sword didn't even create a good justification to bring DNC over SAM-WAR to oddy. Especially for Kalunga, where people mention the breaking of the WS wall. There is no good justification to bring DNC to these fights and Onion Sword hasn't changed that.

It's not about being able to make Fusion, but to have Fusion WS to open or close light with Fragmentation. It's probably even more important for someone like BLU, who normally lacks self darkness and self Light options without using weak WSs or Chain Affinity.


The only hard locked jobs for Kalunga are BRD, COR and PLD and nothing else. We did it easily with BRD COR PLD DRK RUN BLU and we had plenty of time left.


I'm sorry, but you really need to slow down and start reading people post more carefully. Mell haven't tried anything. He said "he knows someone who tried". He also haven't said anything about DNC. Could have mean Onion sword on COR or BRD to break WS wall.
You are greatly overestimating DPS of single wield 67% haste WAR and underestimate what 10% haste does for single wielding COR and BRD on top of 23% def down for all 4 people doing damage.

Samba alone is almost +30% damage for COR and BRD. With box step it's almost +60%. It's like having more than one extra person spamming Savage Blades there.

COR with Samba and box step has the same dps as 67% haste Ikenga/Calamity WAR with Warcry up. He would actually beat DNC in DPS.

Now box step and haste samba let BLU use only 25%DW (more tp per hit and better belt/earring) and improve cratio. Overall it boosts Tizona BLU damage by around 46% and makes his DPS competitive with 67% haste warcry/mighty strikes R30Ikenga Calamity WAR.

Overall it's nothing about DNC vs WAR personal DPS. It's about party DPS and it's not even close. I hope I don't need to tell you how much safer it is to have both DNC and BLU for emergency cures or how easy it is to proc !! with chain affinity and wild flourish.

I'm over here catching strays for quoting an entire post word-for-word. How dare I dishonestly quote all of his words and respond to them directly.

I knew that this is what you meant, and IDK why you were dishonestly hiding behind the "ohhh I am sorry, I thought you just wanted me to list a bunch of DNC job abilities."

And no, I don't think DNC can outperform BLU because, from what I have seen, people haven't even been able to beat Kalunga with Onion sword yet. However, WAR-BLU has been the goto strategy, making it a very clean not-luck dependent win. My last Kalunga clear we had something like 5 mins left on the clock (got lucky), so, why would you replace BLU for DNC? Is it because you are running into a DPS check and DNC will solve that?

WAR+BLU win attempts: 3000+
WAR+DNC win attempts: 0, but someone tried it with a WHM and no WAR once

I can't imagine why we've seen more people win with BLU..