Yagyu Darkblade

You might be right, I had originally also assumed that Dokoku was best for phys katana WS. But that doesn't seem to be reflected in some testing. At the very least, it seems apparent that Dokoku isn't a massive improvement over what we already had with Heishi (or Naegling, of course).

Your point about SCs helps it, if 3-stepping is viable (i.e., other people aren't WSing). And of course, I'm relying on external tools that may not be perfect, I might not have had 100% optimal sets in any sims I ran, and I don't have a completed Dokoku of my own to test it myself in practical scenarions.

I don't get into the "sim" discussions, but I would be curious to see how that is even possible. Ten has slightly better modifiers but Zesho is 4 hits and can self SC. Is this also taking into consideration the PDL bonus and added SCs? Like what factors are we talking here?

Zesho’s FTP scaling is better but Ten does have the 30 Str/dex mods coming out ahead of zeshos 25 dex/agi. Factoring in PDL is important too yes.

I edited my original comment, I will go out today and parse both against each other in a real scenario and see what I get.

@ Capuchin - assuming the sim was Heishi/tp bonus vs Dokoku/tp bonus?

Not to sideline the main thread even more but recently got stage 4 Dokoku as 4th Prime. Scythe/dagger/sword being first three. This one for some reason I am really into and like. Even though I know it isnt the best thing out there. I jumped from one stage 4 to the next trying to find something that I really liked.

I might jump around again but at the moment I plan to stage 5 it. Kikoku was first ever Relic and I loved playing NIN before it was completely shunned for my RDM. The animation for Metsu and now Meppo brings me back to my youth.

Friends always tell me to make something I think i would have fun with so I stopped chasing some of the more main stream options.

So personally I say make what makes you happy. Who knows maybe one day SE will stop treating NIN like a *** child and show it some SAM level love.

I mean, anyone is free to do their own testing and putting gear into a sim or spreadsheet. One obvious difference would be that Heishi's TP Bonus is very significant.

And as I play with it a little more, yeah I can fine tune sets better to have St4 Dokoku win in a head-to-head comparison more often for physical WS setups (versus Heishi/Ten), but still not by a massive amount. Biggest difference looks to be that Dokoku gets more out of TP Bonus Hitaki offhand (whereas Kunimitsu generally performs better as an offhand to Heishi). I did mistakenly leave Kunimitsu as offhand in some of my earlier tests, and I can now see that's a big difference and proper offhand does mean Dokoku St4 wins more often.
(and TY Luna for calling that out, you're right on that the offhand matters quite a bit)

But then you look at hybrids, and Heishi absolutely spanks both Dokoku using hybrids, or any katana using physical WS. So to maximize DPS, NIN would optimally want to use hybrids any time they're viable - and that's not a Dokoku use case.

If you're soloing something on NIN and doing simple 3-step SCs with Dokoku, that's great, and those SCs do add up. But look at this situation - solo SCs? Nobody else cares what you're doing solo - groups still aren't seeking "Prime NIN only", and your ability to solo light SC isn't really relevant to the Yagyu Darkblade's use cases (the point of this topic).

Or to put it another way:

If Yagyu Darkblade makes NIN more useful for certain content, you use it for that content.

That might be tanking with a Fudo Masamune or Nagi mainhand & Yagyu offhand.

Or it might be DD mainhand, and sacrificing your offhand stats (TP Bonus or Kunimitsu) for Yagyu's shadows-on-others utility. In that case, mainhand Heishi and Ten is decisively better than mainhand Dokoku and Zesho (loss of the TP Bonus +1000 offhand really hurts Dokoku, and in a party setup like where you're focusing on applying shadows to OTHER DDS, you aren't solo 3-stepping anyway so that Dokoku perk doesn't apply).

And in some cases, you just don't care about Yagyu at all. Then, just go with a good DPS option from something like:
1) Heishi with hybrids (or Ten)
2) Naegling with Savage
3) Dokoku with Zesho Meppo

All of those are viable, the point being it's not a situation where it's just "oh, Prime is so much better that it's viewed as mandatory for a serious NIN". That's just not the case.


EDIT: And to be perfectly clear, this isn't intended as some big takedown of Prime katana - it has its uses, I'll probably end up making one some day. I made all of the other NIN REMAs too, and enjoy them all regardless of whether they are purely optimal for a given situation. I like it when people make a weapon more because they think it's fun or like the job, regardless of whether it's the meta or the optimal DPS. This whole discussion was more in response to Godfry's assertion that NIN having a "bad" prime is somehow the deciding factor that knocks Yagyu Darkblade down from what would have been the best pick. I don't agree with that.

What we are asking is if a 2nd ninja in the party, that is wearing the cape and boots gets more shadows from a yagyu ninja casting utsusemi onto them. Yea we know the yagyu ninja wearing the boots/cape doesn't add more shadows to normal jobs, but wondering if a ninja with the equipment on does.

I doubt it does, but would be an interesting quirk of it does. Just need 2 ninjas to test it, one with yagyu, and the other wearing boots and cape.

Can confirm, a second NIN in party wearing JSE cape/empy shoes does NOT get any additional shadows from another Yagyu NIN casting Utsusemi.

Regardless of either player's gear, party members always receive the same number of shadows:
Ichi = 1 shadow
Ni = 2 shadows
San = 3 shadows

This is obviously a quick and dirty test, but here it is.

Buffs:
BRD alt 5 song (No SV) Honor, Minuet 5 4 3, Herc Etude
King of Hearts Haste 2/Dia III
ML32 NIN/DRG
Grape Daifuku +1

Dho Gates, Apex Bats

Dokoku/TP Bonus:
WS Avg: 37,250 (18 WS)
DPS: 4064.94 (this is not factoring in SC dmg, which was significant. I only got in 18 WS for Dokoku because the target was dying so fast sometimes in 2 WS. SC dmg was another 1900~ DPS).

Heishi/Kunimitsu:
WS Avg: 28,743 (34 WS)
DPS: 3832.28

Heishi/TP Bonus:
WS Avg: 28,779 (24 WS)
DPS: 3726.29

Heishi/TP Bonus behind behind Kunimitsu offhand is not something I was expecting, but I guess when you have +500 from heishi, +200 from Mpaca, and another +250 from moonshade, the extra +1000 isnt giving as much of a lift as I expected. Almost always firing at 2.5k+ effective TP without TP bonus katana.



All Nyame is R25, Mpaca's Cap is R24. Dokoku at stage 4.




Edit: The FTP scaling seems to make Zesho come out ahead, as well as the 4 hit nature of the WS, although it is incredibly front loaded. The PDL aftermath is probably playing a bigger role than expected, as well.

Spikes were as high as 42k, lows around 31k. Highest spike I got from Ten with Kuni offhand was ~35k. I did have 1 Blade: Ten whiff the first hit but land the double attack for ~500 dmg. That skewed the WS average for the TP bonus offhand cycle.

I think it's safe to say that if you are in a situation where you can solo SC (AND hybrids aren't an option for whatever reason), Dokoku is without a doubt the best option and it's not really close. And honestly? Most of the time I use NIN it's as a solo DPS/just low manning some random content so...take that for what it is.

Edit again: This doesn't even really belong in this thread. I will probably post this in a separate one.

I agree with Capuchin's comment above - regardless of the viability/strength of Dokoku, I think it doesn't really tie into Yagyu as a choice at all. Completely different use cases.

Thanks!

Ninja is the one job where having a so many different weapons is what makes it fun. If you don't care about minmaxing, thats one thing, but if you do for NIN like me, it's one of the best things about the job

A katana for tanking (Fudo C)
A defensive katana option for tanking a single target, mitigating damage, or if you don't have Su4/5 (Tsuru)
An off-hand katana for massive hate spikes, tanking, providing shadows to party members, or other unique settings (Yagyu Darkblade)
A katana for magical+physical ws or good all-around physical WS, or for level 4 SCs (Heishi)
A katana for dying (LOL Nagi)
A great all-around offhand dps Katana, including nuking (Kunimitsu)
A katana for white damage (Kannagi)
A katana for when you don't have haste (Kujaku +1)
An entry-level Katana for easy SCing (Kikoku)
A top-end katana for easy SC and respectable damage (Dokoku)
A katana when idling for free TP (Gokotai)
A very strong top-end sword for spike WS damage (Naegling)
A bow to pair with TP bonus katanas if you are unable to melee (Ullr)
A great katana to apply defense down (Hachimonji)
A mainhand dagger option for piercing/Aeolian Edge (Tauret)
An offhand dagger option for Subtle Blow II and general dps
A blunt option (Mafic Cudgel when /WAR for Judgment, *throws up in mouth suggesting Karambit H2H*)
A variety of shuriken options for different builds
A few nuking options mentioned earlier (Tauret + Naegling, Donor Gun*)

Maybe I missed a few. But that's a part of the fun factor for me, collecting all of these unique weapons and applying them to several scenarios. I honestly don't even care anymore if it's the "best" damage, so long as I can find a use for it and enjoyment from the variety.

Exactly, ninja is about versatility, not one size fits all, /genericcliche "It's all situational"

Thanks for providing some helpful data!

FWIW, similar 2hr sim setup for me with same ML/buffs and basically same WS sets (except swapping Ephramd's for Cornelia's). TP sets prob vary a bit (I used a pretty standard 5/5 Malignance set). I am getting Heishi still with higher overall DPS, lower WS avg. Some of the difference may be down to timing of WS (I set a TP range of 1250-1750 for Heishi, and 1750-2250 for Dokoku).

In any case, the differences aren't that huge for either your numbers with Dokoku winning, or my sim numbers with Heishi ahead. They're clearly in the same ballpark when it comes to physical katana WS damage (not including SCs).

Apex Bats
Dokoku/TP Bonus:
WS Avg: 35,323
DPS: 4257.0

Heishi/Kunimitsu:
WS Avg: 29,100
DPS: 4511.50

Notable that if you bump the target difficulty up to Lugcrawler Hunters, Heishi pulled further away (probably due to higher acc needs to accomodate TP bonus offhand):

Dokoku/TP Bonus:
WS Avg: 31,650
DPS: 3600.60

Heishi/Kunimitsu R25:
WS Avg: 26,931
DPS: 4162.50


That's fair, the SC damage seems to be the most significant difference in any case. So that comes down to whether you're actually doing a lot of SCs on your NIN, and particularly your self-SCs.


Yeah I think that's the big takeaway. And given that Dokoku clearly isn't going to be an overwhelming BiS option in situations where using Yagyu Darkblade matters, it is pretty irrelevant whether NIN got a "good" Prime or a "bad" one for purposes of whether or not to select the bonanza katana.

In a party situation - probably the more applicable scenario for Yagyu Darkblade usage - I would suggest that your SC damage drops substantially, if not almost entirely. So one of Dokoku's big advantages is mostly eliminated in this situation.

Three friends of mine that have gotten the Katana are having an absolute blast with it.

If you like Ninja, Katana will make you like it even more. It's a solid pick!

I mean, I think it's a hell of a lot more meaningful than extra duration on Saboteur or Killer Instinct, and people are acting like the shield is amazing for those reasons.

Definitely a solid pick, and opens up some brand new opportunities for NIN.

I like Ninja, but I picked the shield because I'm on PLD 99% of the time, and even if there are content where we would bring Ninja, other static member would likely take on the role. So shield is a better choice for me.

I also agree with you. This Katana is likely the one pick that actually changes things.

Oh for sure, in your case the shield totally makes sense. And for PLD in general, pretty damn good! A great pick too.

I particularly called out RDM and BST due to the somewhat lesser impact on lengthening their JA durations. Still certainly worth using if you have it, just doesn't fundamentally change anything. "Hey RDM, remember that Saboteur you enjoy using? Well, this shield lets you get the exact same thing, but for 15 extra seconds."

Hey, bonus is bonus so that's nice. But it's obviously not a fundamental change the way it would be if the shield, oh IDK, made RDM's Haste II into Hastega II.

Didn't read whole thread(probably was mentioned), but a good point I enjoyed about the katana was, the trusts get the buff also.
That's great for solo'ing stuff and keeping your trusts alive.

off topic,
where is link or thread to bis nin gear for 2025. ty in advance.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/All_Jobs_Gear_Sets/Ninja


Only thing I’d say about the gear list above is it doesn’t list the “full malignance” TP set which is what I default to on ninja…5/5 malignance, jse neck, null shawl, sailfi belt+1, dedition/sortie earring.

Can you run the Dokoku sim again but with Tp range at 1250? With TP bonus offhand, Mpaca Cap, and Moonshade, you are immediately at 2450 effective TP once you hit 1k so I think Dokoku does best when basically firing at will. Just curious what you get number wise in that scenario.