Which Weapon Should I Get I'm Too Stupid To Pick!

True story now, if it is for a 1$ mule and Naegling was available, would you still pick a bonsnza weapon or Naegling?

10k more dmg or more... idk how that works out, even if you had 600STR in ws set you'd need like 200% wsd in gear? or do i miss something?

I think he is saying WSing at 2000tp with Flametongue offhand is 10k more than with TP bonus at 1000tp.

yeah... but a 10% extra stat modifier does nothing than adding 10% of your STR as base ws damage.
Base Damage = floor(( Weapon Base Damage + fSTR + WSC ) × fTP)
WS Damage = WS Base Damage × pDIF
even if he did 99999 dmg with TP bonus sword I dont see how 30 fSTR, 30-60 wsc and 5% pDIF end up adding 10k or more. People testet on utu grip like 3-5% more ws damage wich ends up beeing 5k if you cap dmg

This really doesn't tell much of anything.

OK, the per-WS average of Flametongue at 2k TP may outperform TP bonus at 1k TP (i.e., effective TP of 2k), and you get the white damage boost from fire proc. But you're missing one of the most important pieces: TP Bonus offhand means more total WS (since you can WS at lower TP). 30 weaker WS can still be better overall DPS than 20 stronger ones.

TP Bonus doesn't have accuracy and will greatly effect TP gain if you're just missing with thibron where those would be hits with flametongue. Sure you can juice accuracy, but that also creates a void where you're not juicing attack to cap. It's situational.

My objective wasn't to tell you anything. My objective was to.endorse the weapon. If youre holding to beyond 1000 this weapon does more damage. If youre not, a d going the second you get 1k tp, the tp sword does. I don't use blu to zerg ***. I have heavy dd for that. I'm casting a d supporting in dynamis or soloing. In those cases, it's a better off hand. If you want math, get one and math.

It's several things really:
- +30STR on now 40%STR modifier
_ lots of additional base damage on subhand hit. It's only 1 fTP hit, but with all the multipliers it's probably at least +1k damage there.
- +10%STR WSC modifier
- 5%pdl

When I set Sim for 1000tp target with Thibron and 2000tp with Flametongue difference is even bigger than 10k in median WS (it's closer to 11k) in superbuffed scenario. That being said WS frequency puts dps with Thribon to overall much higher, because it has a 32% lead.

God... I wish I could laugh react posts...

TP Bonus sword's offhand accuracy always has me giving it the stinkeye.

Does that apply equally for MH Tiz or Naegling? Savage and Expiacion?

It doesnt say main hand: on it, so yes it does

It's all content dependent. RDM doesn't really have acc issues anywhere, composure, gain-dex and distract III. The rest is just depens.

I know that but Tiz and Naegling are dif weapons, and Expiacion and Savage Blade are different WS. I meant in those terms.

It can be a better MH for savage than naeg if you can compensate for the lack of 10~20% atk from naegling

It can be stronger than tiz expi but replace atk boost with AM3s boost to TP speed, which is gonna trump higher es dmg

It can be stronger OH than thib if you either A. Dont have the acc for thib or B. You hold to the point the tp bonus starys losing value, but thib still wins cause the white dmg doesnt compensate for thib user wsing 2x as often

Magians still reign supreme in optimal scenetios

And specifically, this is true because of the TP Bonus+1000, right?

SE could make a very minor change to invalidate these weapons (or make them even more potent). I have all of them, and I kind of wish SE would shake things up in this regard.

I wonder if SE is aware that we're using level 99 TP Bonus offhand weapons?

Similarly, the M.Defense Down+16 Magic Weapons is a flat 16% according to Silver Sean who did the testing. It is another valid source of Defense Down. ...It's probably another hold-over from the 99 era that SE forgot about.

Yeah I can't see too many scenarios for Flametongue being optimal over Thibron so Offhand is out unless something specific is going on? It would end up coming down to Flametongue vs Naegling Mainhand Savage Spam but as Hadroncollider pointed out, the Stat boosts are nice but they aren't magic?

I've been gone awhile but in every Spreadsheet or WS calculator I've ever touched, it was very difficult to overcome any +X% boosts to those heavy main-hit WSs with raw stats; even if you changed the WSC to 100%. And the differences in Base Damages don't usually change very much unless something changed or my understanding has been lost?

So in a capped pDIF scenario it's Naegling's +15% Savage Boost vs Flametongue's DMG boost + WSC Boost and STR combo and 5% PDL?

Is that DMG + STR Combo able to clear out that remaining 10% WSD?

Yup, why by and large the only contender has been high ranked inkenga's axe, an ilvl axe witb good stats, wsd, and +500 tp bonus, everyone else is largely SoL


Its 21 base dmg 30 str, 5 pdl, and +10% str added to wsc making it a 60/50 str/mnd vs a varying atk boost and +15% savage wsd. The varying atk boost is the kicker in which is better as that pulls a loot of weight usually

Idk, the case for TP bonus sword/weapon in offhand seems clear cut to me. Use it in lower end content where you have no accuracy issues in any fight short of long because white damage is almost no longer high enough to matter.

But like I don't think you're gonna land hits on Dyna D wave 3, Sortie Basement bosses, and the like with it. Especially if missing optimal buffs of any flavor. Even the buffs Saeval listed are only +239 acc basically, which is still 3 less accuracy than is raw on Flametongue.

Plus everyone been going at this with a flawed presumption. 1k TP with Magian offhand vs. 2k TP Flametongue offhand. But Flametongue offhand on any of the jobs would go at 1750, cuz Moonshade. For some of them lower than that due to having TP bonus effects/gear that let you go lower (probably just WAR, but WAR can go at 1650 even before Savagery). Also though, keep in mind that if Flametongue user did use WS at lower TP, their low TP WS will still be stronger than any other offhand option available, so TP Bonus sword isn't just competing with frequency. It's competing with a stronger offhand hit addition and a higher floor of a stronger 1000TP WS too. This goes for the WS and the TP phase, cause we all know TP bonus swords raw hits only provide TP. They are almost as weak as Kraken Club hits these days, while Flametongue is doing probably a solid 1000 damage more per swing.

Like I'm sure your sims or whatever illicit, redlight district programs you guys are into these days will still show TP bonus offhand as coming out ahead, but I don't really think it's by as much as you'd make it seem. Again especially not on anything TP bonus sword can't hit consistently.

This brings me to question I've not though to ask before, but what accuracy level is acceptable for TP bonus offhand btw? How many misses is it allowed to have?

Surely they must know, but yeah I wonder myself sometimes lol. But at this point, they've been around too long and they aren't going to nerf magians. If anything, the more likely update would be to add more magian trials to make ilevel versions (or to make them unnecessary/non-optimal by sticking TP Bonus on other items).


As for the swords, I'm also curious how well offhand Ice Brand performs on physical WS. Like, for those rare times when a Thibron offhand is harder to pull off due to accuracy concerns, how does Ice Brand stack up to the non-Flametongue ilevel options like Sakpata's Sword or Zantetsuken? Flametongue is better for phyiscal, sure, but Ice Brand is top of the line for your BLU nukes and could still be an improvement over non-Bonanza options for the fairly infrequent times when Thibron isn't viable.

More just curiosity for me, I already went for katana. But the elemental swords were pretty interesting to me too.


You don't need sims and illicit programs. Can get some decent data by just going out and fighting in relatively controlled conditions like fighing Apex mobs for 10 minutes with one setup, then fight for 10 more minutes after switching to a different weapon. What's your total DPS (not just your WS average)?

I find it extremely strange how people praise FFXI for having such a diverse group of items to collect and use, and how awesome it is that Dring is still competitive all these years and levels later, then out the other side of their mouth talk about how shitty it is that we're using level 99 magian trial weapons, and "does SE know we're using these?!"

Um...I assume they do and they're probably happy about it, because it means there's more relevant "content" that we can/should/have to do. It's a sign of a great game that there are DOZENS of events to do to collect gear for your character. It's one of the things most people LOVE about FFXI...It's not a bug, it's game design.


Yes, it's not difficult at all to hit with a TP bonus OH in Dynamis D wave 3, Sortie basement bosses, Ody bosses, etc. Why would you be "missing optimal buffs"? You're in the endiest of endgame content, but you didn't bring a BRD for your melee strategy?


I think people get stars in their eyes with white damage way too much. Let's say you're dual-wielding. How many times do you think you swing with your OH between WS? 4 times, maybe? So you gained...maybe 2500 damage? This is EASILY destroyed by having a stronger WS.

Look at a parse or a simulator some time. Every time I've ever seen one, the ratio of WSD: White damage is 80:20 MINIMUM. Many jobs are 90:10 or higher. Increasing your white damage by adding an enspell isn't *nothing*, but it's pretty damn close.

I'd say on RDM with Samurai Roll I typically get TP in 2, maybe 3 auto-attack rounds after a WS. How much white damage do you think is happening in there, exactly?

Holding to 1750 guarantees the highest WS average, but is it always the highest total damage?

Given the twitch streams are always exclusively noobs. I bet they have no idea.

Our people frequently use TP off hands without acc issues. Gear power creep plus buffs and food have long since made acc not a big issue if in a group.

in my opinion the best argument to not use tp bonus offhands are on the tp denial fights.... TPing add and can't ws until >2k so you don't get timbered? swap off your magian

arent tp denial fights prob a better argument FOR the tp bonus offhands especially when using WS that scale well?

as maletaru said, those weapons being as strong as they are/in the spot they are with not having been updated is just game design. it's no mistake or coincidence that aeonic tp bonus does not work in offhand while these do.

Kinda wonder if its like some kind of problem with coding as its the same wording as all the armor based TP bonus, but surely they can just slap on the "main hand:" sticker and "archery/marksmanship:" in the case of ranged weapons.

But at this point im guessing they just dont care to take it away, cant imagine they arent aware of it by now

I mean Ikenga axe exists and it's quite new.

Tp bonus offhands had almost no accuracy issues (on most jobs) even before MLS. Now MLs added even over 80 free accuracy with DEX and skill combined. It's almost never a problem to cap hit rate with tp bonus offhands now. Some jobs might still have slight issues, like BRD in 4th floor of segments without SV Honor for example.