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FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
By Nariont 2023-12-24 15:19:23
No, I just enjoy a challenge.
It's 75 with (mostly) QoL improvements, and 75 XI was already a joke where the challenge was mainly making groups yourself, and staying awake if you couldnt get a good dialogue with your group going as speed of play was slower than today
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 256
By Asura.Backstab 2023-12-24 16:25:31
Wanted to chime in after stumbling over this thread while in search for old friends who might have moved on to Horizon.
I played retail for a decade. Started a bit late with the xbox beta (the disk came along with a magazine i bought) but continued playing until mid 2015 when my main and one of my alts got banned. On retail i started out as a thf main and it was my first job to 75.
Since i got banned i had to think about ffxi every few months and had the urge to play again. The idea of starting over with all the new stuff after 2015 and playonline hassle, Windower, +++ was just to much of a threshold.
4 Days ago i stumbled across a youtube video about Horizon, grabbed my laptop and downloaded the client, 15 min. later i was wacking rabbits in east ronfaure on my lvl 1 thf; fml was nostalgia hitting hard. So far i had a great experience and can definitely say that horizon is an awesome era+ experience, the stories of retail 75 cap may no be retold but its a place for new ones and imo its more welcoming then a comeback in retail.
By K123 2023-12-24 16:37:29
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Horizon is not a challenge, it's tedious grinding. Something you can easily do in retail. Making a party to exp in the dunes is more challenging than most of FFXI. FFXI is the biggest tedious grind ever - enjoy your 1000th identical sortie run and your endless dailies.
By ilugmat 2023-12-24 16:42:46
Old FFXI was like being in school.
Private servers are like going to a school reunion in your 40s.
The things that made old XI good are not on a private server, so ultimately all it offers is the boring grind where you have to pay attention due to being in a party and downtime lfg for hours.
Modern retail is recognizing you're not 15 anymore with limitless time, and you actually don't want to lfg for hours and needing help with literally everything. All the new stuff they added is why it's still worth playing in 2023, trusts are amazing and let you get things done on your terms.
By Nariont 2023-12-24 16:47:31
Making a party to exp in the dunes is more challenging than most of FFXI.
At least pick something like CN or jungles level range where jobs have some individuality in them, dunes is basically grabbing a healer, someone with voke, and 4 other bodies where your biggest game changer is who can use an xbow and brought acid bolts
By K123 2023-12-24 16:49:03
But at lower levels with people with less or no experience of partying, that is the hard part. Not the mobs.
By Nariont 2023-12-24 16:52:33
Presumably most people playing horizon are previous XI players, so the concept of partying shouldnt be new to much of them, this aint 2004 where new people were still rolling in and had no idea how to make a macro or target a mob, which just leaves you with the state of jobs at that level range, which is fairly limited.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-24 17:00:14
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Horizon is not a challenge, it's tedious grinding. Something you can easily do in retail. Making a party to exp in the dunes is more challenging than most of FFXI. FFXI is the biggest tedious grind ever - enjoy your 1000th identical sortie run and your endless dailies.
How is making a dunes party hard? Again it is just tedious, not difficult. Waiting around for people, waiting for people to get to camp without dying. That isn't a challenge. It's just tedious. Using 1 macro every minute or two is not hard either, and neither are the mobs. None of them have interesting mechanics as they shouldn't due to it being low level.
The unknown was what made 75-era FFXI a challenge. I died to Forest Hares often the first few days of me starting the game due to me not understanding things like having to /heal to get hp back etc back in the mid-2000's. That would not happen now.
The rest (how long it takes to get to 75,how long it takes to make a party, how long it takes to traverse the world, the day and week waits for missions) is just tedium.
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By Nariont 2023-12-24 17:14:43
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »The unknown was what made 75-era FFXI a challenge.
This, even beyond the basics just having a lot of stuff left to players to figure out, and that information largely being shared via word of mouth or forums is what made some fights/areas complicated initially. Now there's multiple wikis, a dedicated discord, likely plenty of old 75 era vets, so you take away a lot of the "magic" unless you just overhaul everything mechanically.
And even with all that SE didnt really get creative until AU rolled around, which still was pretty basic but salvage for example had some just random triggers that you only figured out through trial/error that again; just check a wiki now
EDIT: Not to say xiclopedia wasnt around for most of the games life, but we were still figuring ***out, much like how sortie/ody mechanics were being figured out recently, so things would change regularly, for older content its all pretty much set in stone
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5403
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-12-24 18:09:45
But at lower levels with people with less or no experience of partying, that is the hard part. Not the mobs. I thought Horizon is full of FFXI vets vying for that 75-era nostalgia retail doesnt offer?? Now these same FFXI vets have no idea how to party up??
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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By Tarage 2023-12-24 18:28:22
So you're an extreme masochist. Got it. Posting here must be getting you off with how many people think you're a blithering idiot. ***, did I just give you a ***? Dammit. No, I just enjoy a challenge. I've probably played 15 hours total so far, but I enjoyed it more than FFXI recently. I didn't realize bad game design = challenge. Have you considered playing with a blindfold? Makes as much sense.
Edit: Yeah everyone pretty much nailed it. FFXI is not a challenge, especially at low levels. Camping a dragon for days is not a challenge. Hitting a macro every minute is not a challenge. Hell, at least FFXIV makes you move around the arena. You are beyond stupid if you think grinding = challenge.
Fenrir.Ixn
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 72
By Fenrir.Ixn 2023-12-24 21:40:47
Bad design here was not everyone was RPing as stated in the Brady Guide. In other words: everyone (from what I'm seeing) is playing the game wrong. You are supposed to type "cute" phrases as a Tarutaru, being an annoying cat as a Mithra, boring as a Hume, racist as an Elvaan, and working in the mines as a Galka. '3'
Happy Holidays, and a Merry Christmas.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1068
By Asura.Iamaman 2023-12-24 22:06:33
Bad design here was not everyone was RPing as stated in the Brady Guide. In other words: everyone (from what I'm seeing) is playing the game wrong. You are supposed to type "cute" phrases as a Tarutaru, being an annoying cat as a Mithra, boring as a Hume, racist as an Elvaan, and working in the mines as a Galka. '3'
Happy Holidays, and a Merry Christmas.
I accidentally ended up on a RP server in EQ2 and I do not recommend it. People took it wayyyy too seriously, like yelling at and blacklisting me for partying with someone from an opposing faction. Trying to decipher the way some people talked and actually coordinate doing content was a nightmare if people didn’t turn it off
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 166
By Asura.Toeknee 2023-12-24 22:17:41
Old FFXI was like being in school.
Private servers are like going to a school reunion in your 40s.
perfect analogy, almost. retail is returning to your high school to join the faculty in your 40s.
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 466
By Bahamut.Greyfawkz 2023-12-24 23:32:36
Let's just tell it how it is. Private servers are for:
1) poors who can't make gil.
2) bad players who can't clear new content.
3) irl poors who did nothing with themselves irl, and cannot afford to play retail.
4) the game simply passed them by and they can't figure out gearswap, dt sets, sird, fast cast etc and they weren't able to evolve.
The only good thing about 75 era was the flans (friends) you made along the way.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 166
By Asura.Toeknee 2023-12-25 00:52:40
Bahamut.Greyfawkz said: »Let's just tell it how it is. Private servers are for:
1) poors who can't make gil.
2) bad players who can't clear new content.
3) irl poors who did nothing with themselves irl, and cannot afford to play retail.
4) the game simply passed them by and they can't figure out gearswap, dt sets, sird, fast cast etc and they weren't able to evolve.
The only good thing about 75 era was the flans (friends) you made along the way.
or people just enjoy everything that came with the 75 era (like we all did at one time) over the current era - pitfalls and all. re-making GS lua's has been the #1 thing that's made me instantly log out every free campaign when i log in to check if maybe now's the time i should re-sub.
*haven't played 'insert job here' since abyssea era or earlier. i've got a bunch of gear from other jobs i could piece together and be at a competitive level
*find a handful of different lua's to choose from
*open a blank macro pallet and a 500 line lua file
*deletes FFXI and plays literally anything else
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By Dodik 2023-12-25 01:48:34
Yeah, cause hitting 3 macros per action in 75 era XI since can only fit 6 lines in there was great. Can always suffer through in game equipsets I guess, see how long that lasts. Only 75 era didn't have those. Go back to spellcast maybe.
The barrier to entry is super high. This is the case for XI in general, even without gearswap or any tools.
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Sylph.Snk
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 233
By Sylph.Snk 2023-12-25 04:12:47
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements. I suppose that argument could be made, but honestly I never asked my lawyers specifically about this aspect of it because I was only concerned about the liability of actually hosting the server itself. I'd be downright amazed if there was actually any sort of evidence that this was a thing any company has ever bothered to pursue though.
Just read this post and I thought to myself at least SE isn't like Nintendo because they would go after the host or anyone else involved using their IPs. :<
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 517
By Asura.Clintbeastwood 2023-12-25 10:08:04
re-making GS lua's has been the #1 thing that's made me instantly log out
Farming niche pieces of gear to min/max gearswap luas is the best part of the game.
Building shitty macros to try to do the same thing is conceptionally no different, just worse, so not sure why that wouldn't make you log out just as fast.
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By fillerbunny9 2023-12-25 11:23:18
Bahamut.Greyfawkz said: »4) the game simply passed them by and they can't figure out gearswap, dt sets, sird, fast cast etc and they weren't able to evolve.
what on earth makes you think people on private servers don't use Gearswap? they just draw funny, arbitrary lines in the sand about what is and isn't OK to use as part of it, as someone in one of these threads reported that adding an Aftercast line was a no-no.
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By Tarage 2023-12-25 16:40:44
I'll admit, I refused to use gearswap or complicated multi-step macros for the longest time on SMN. When I finally switched, the difference was night and day. Then again, I'm also the idiot who insisted on being SMN/BLM for the longest time...
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By K123 2023-12-25 17:27:37
I don't understand why so many people get so angry and hateful because some people enjoy doing a bit of grinding. Grinding stats in the original FF2 is annoying as ***, or mastering all jobs in FF5. Even levelling in FF9 is slow and repetitive. Still enjoyed it.
By Tarage 2023-12-25 17:46:54
I don't understand why so many people get so angry and hateful because some people enjoy doing a bit of grinding. Grinding stats in the original FF2 is annoying as ***, or mastering all jobs in FF5. Even levelling in FF9 is slow and repetitive. Still enjoyed it. The anger does not come from liking grinding. We all played during those times. But we were kids. We grew up, got jobs. MMOs evolved, got more respectful of our time. No one wants to wake up at 4am to sit for an hour trying to claim a dragon that might not even pop. If you want to be a turbo masochist, that's on you. Lord knows people do dumber things to themselves. Speedrunning feels like the ultimate "I hate my free time" exercise.
The hate comes from you trying to convince us that it isn't bad, that somehow that level of grind is vastly superior to the current game. You took a ***on a plate and are trying to tell us it's a steak.
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By K123 2023-12-25 17:55:21
The anger does not come from liking grinding. We all played during those times. But we were kids. We grew up, got jobs. MMOs evolved, got more respectful of our time. No one wants to wake up at 4am to sit for an hour trying to claim a dragon that might not even pop. If you want to be a turbo masochist, that's on you. Lord knows people do dumber things to themselves. Speedrunning feels like the ultimate "I hate my free time" exercise.
The hate comes from you trying to convince us that it isn't bad, that somehow that level of grind is vastly superior to the current game. You took a ***on a plate and are trying to tell us it's a steak. I don't understand what camping Fafhogg has to do with exping a bit. People do much dumber ***with their time than grind exp on horizon, so I still don't get why you're so enraged.
I'd say raging and shitting on people saying they're enjoying themselves is a far dumber thing to be doing than grinding exp on horizon, but you do you. You're clearly busy and grown up.
By Nariont 2023-12-25 18:00:35
Making a party to exp in the dunes is more challenging than most of FFXI.
That's really all it was, what you enjoy is what you enjoy, i enjoyed playing PUP at 75 when it was janky mess with no real role, but if i said it was the best job in the game id get disagreements then too at minimum.
By Tarage 2023-12-25 18:08:36
The anger does not come from liking grinding. We all played during those times. But we were kids. We grew up, got jobs. MMOs evolved, got more respectful of our time. No one wants to wake up at 4am to sit for an hour trying to claim a dragon that might not even pop. If you want to be a turbo masochist, that's on you. Lord knows people do dumber things to themselves. Speedrunning feels like the ultimate "I hate my free time" exercise.
The hate comes from you trying to convince us that it isn't bad, that somehow that level of grind is vastly superior to the current game. You took a ***on a plate and are trying to tell us it's a steak. I don't understand what camping Fafhogg has to do with exping a bit. People do much dumber ***with their time than grind exp on horizon, so I still don't get why you're so enraged.
I'd say raging and shitting on people saying they're enjoying themselves is a far dumber thing to be doing than grinding exp on horizon, but you do you. You're clearly busy and grown up.
Like I keep telling you, if you like being a masochist playing a 10 years outdated MMO experience that requires as much skill as "push button every minute", that's on you. But don't tell me it's some insane magical experience of joy when we all did it and all remember how unfun it was. Let me guess, eat your cereal without milk because it taints the experience?
The rage has nothing to do with the experience, and everything to do with your inability to shut the hell up about how superior it is.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-25 19:31:09
That's exactly it. If you want to go and have fun on Horizon that's your business. But to come in here and say that it's superior, and you're basically superior for playing it is obviously going to rub people up the wrong way. Especially when we've all played old-era FFXI and we all know it's not really a challenge.
Actually if anything, playing FFXI for so long when it came out made my gaming skills decline massively because all I was doing was just pressing a button every 60 seconds and paying a bit of attention now and again to mob tp moves.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 166
By Asura.Toeknee 2023-12-25 23:46:22
The anger does not come from liking grinding. We all played during those times. But we were kids. We grew up, got jobs. MMOs evolved, got more respectful of our time. No one wants to wake up at 4am to sit for an hour trying to claim a dragon that might not even pop. If you want to be a turbo masochist, that's on you. Lord knows people do dumber things to themselves. Speedrunning feels like the ultimate "I hate my free time" exercise.
The hate comes from you trying to convince us that it isn't bad, that somehow that level of grind is vastly superior to the current game. You took a ***on a plate and are trying to tell us it's a steak.
who here is saying 75 is objectively 'superior' to retail? as if there's an actual truth to be found there. i'm just seeing folks say they enjoy one thing over the other, on both sides.
it's all subjective anyway, i don't get whats getting peoples panties in a bunch. if someone finds leveling more fun than endgame that's their journey and good on them for entertaining themselves in a way that works for them. to them, that is superior gameplay - should they play something they aren't interested in because you say it's 'a better gaming experience'? objectively, it's all a dumb way to be spending time vs literally anything that's more productive.
also you're talking about classic era as a 10yrs outdated MMO like retail isn't also an outdated dusty MMO. you're spending time 'better' by doing objectives at level cap, vs doing them before the level cap? are daily events and pressing more macros per minute a better use of time vs exping at lv40? do you see how goofy this all sounds?
By Tarage 2023-12-26 01:16:05
The anger does not come from liking grinding. We all played during those times. But we were kids. We grew up, got jobs. MMOs evolved, got more respectful of our time. No one wants to wake up at 4am to sit for an hour trying to claim a dragon that might not even pop. If you want to be a turbo masochist, that's on you. Lord knows people do dumber things to themselves. Speedrunning feels like the ultimate "I hate my free time" exercise.
The hate comes from you trying to convince us that it isn't bad, that somehow that level of grind is vastly superior to the current game. You took a ***on a plate and are trying to tell us it's a steak.
who here is saying 75 is objectively 'superior' to retail? as if there's an actual truth to be found there. i'm just seeing folks say they enjoy one thing over the other, on both sides.
it's all subjective anyway, i don't get whats getting peoples panties in a bunch. if someone finds leveling more fun than endgame that's their journey and good on them for entertaining themselves in a way that works for them. to them, that is superior gameplay - should they play something they aren't interested in because you say it's 'a better gaming experience'? objectively, it's all a dumb way to be spending time vs literally anything that's more productive.
also you're talking about classic era as a 10yrs outdated MMO like retail isn't also an outdated dusty MMO. you're spending time 'better' by doing objectives at level cap, vs doing them before the level cap? are daily events and pressing more macros per minute a better use of time vs exping at lv40? do you see how goofy this all sounds? Like I said, if you want to be a masochist, be a masochist. Just don't tell me that ***is amazing when it isn't. It's really not a hard concept but you guys won't shut the hell up.
I live again!!!
I used to play FF11, so did my SO. But that was long ago~
We’ve been playing FF14 for several years now with another couple, and a handful of family members and mutual friends. Every one of them has a prior history with the final fantasy franchise as a whole, though from different generations. In our banter at one time or another everyone has expressed a curiosity for FF11 which they had heard was both a masterpiece in its own right, as well as a rather daunting and at times a crushing experience. There is also a perception of boring gameplay (somehow the classic ‘I hit you, you hit me, then I hit you again’ RPG gameplay loop just isn’t doing it for em. Spoiled). Sadly, I corroborated this for them and helped to solidify that opinion. I’m sure many similar conversations have been had from former players of FF11 to curious people of a younger gaming generation about FF11 in its early iterations. I suspect this mentality and perspective is a factor in people seeking out private servers. It certainly was in the case of my group.
After Yoshi P announced the upcoming raid with ties to FF11, each of the people in our group became instantly interested in playing the game. Our messiah Yoshi Pesus had spoken. Everyone asked me, with clear apprehension "how should we go about it?? What do we have to do to experience the story and clear the 'main content'"? Initially I facepalmed and rolled my eyes, but I also figured I too would like to see the close of the FF11 story I never completed. As the pied piper considering getting ready to lead his flock into the fucking dunes, I started to dread the learning curve everyone was going to hit more or less immediately upon login.
To counter that, I figured a private server would likely be the way to go. Presumably, we could just “godmode” or something and stomp our way through all the bullshit, speed/position hack and see the story as painlessly as possible. Well not quite. It turns out I knew nothing about private servers, and it turns out “godmode” is the trust system and other QOL and travel adjustments they made to retail over the years. But let me back up for a second. In researching options for private servers I found out a lot of concerning information about private servers, and the general lack of options (WIP pet projects). All of it covered in the other threads, ranging from leadership concerns, to absolutely stupid changes to the game itself (e.g. THF changes), and a butchered soundtrack. The final nail in the coffin really being that if you want to see the full story it’s going to have to be on retail. But even without story as a consideration, after researching enough about Horizon and other private servers it’s become a no brainer for the group. Fuck it, just play retail. Turns out that was a great decision.
The learning curve for everyone is still steep, but there are guides. Everyone has been enjoying it so far, they love the story, they enjoy the simplified “zen” of exp grinding (which I bitter-sweetly remind them is “not as painful as it used to be”). They’re around lvl 70 now, starting on CoP, finished Nation rank ups, and the Zilart missions. They suck, every new moment is a challenge for them. It’s been a blast.
Now, none of this would have happened within my group without Yoshi P giving FF11 a major publicity bump by attaching it to FF14. I suspect that’s a significant factor going on for Horizons success. Just lucky with great timing. FF11 got the Yoshi P bump, but FF11 has a sort of infamy to it that gamers are aware of, and subsequently might be more likely to consider a private server first. Especially if they have had any influence on their perspective either from past play of 11 like myself, or opinions and anecdotes of past players. Horizon is definitely riding on that wave.
It’s just a perfect storm of opportunity and timing for Horizons leadership. I don’t think they’re that smart (look at their administrative in-house drama), they might be finding ways to capitalize on it now sure, but I think it’s mostly just luck and timing.
Now having said all that… I definitely now think the hostility to Horizon is warranted. My group alone resulted in 6 people buying the game and starting a sub, and the renewal of my and my SO’s sub. While 8 people is not that many people, I think its fair to say that if I didn’t look closely into private servers vs retail, I and my crew would likely have found ourselves on Horizon, and there would be that much less money going to FF11. I wonder how many other people responding to the Yoshi P bump are being funneled to horizon instead of retail due to aforementioned reasons, and what a waste that is since as far as I can tell, Yoshi P doing this crossover raid is an attempt at the initial steps for extending a lifeline to FF11.
If players do their homework and still decide to play on a… quasi-elementary-school-birdhouse-project-failure of a private server like Horizon, aight cool homie, whatever makes you happy, the world could use more happy people. Go play it champ. Throw some Ridill’s on some shit. Go get that E-body. And a pair of gaiters.
Horizon keeps getting attributed as having a sense of community, but if people come over to FF11 with their own community already from FF14, as is the case in my group. Well, that becomes a moot point. So does FF11's existing stale community. What you'll have is an opportunity for people to just start importing their own communities into your greater one. Your feelings on FF14 tourists bringing their culture to this antique game may vary, but that's another topic.
Yoshi P, and Horizon have created a renaissance opportunity for FF11 I think. The conflict you all are having is actually probably good for the game. And that will be my last point for now that I wish to make, and also a thank you of sorts to the people here who care enough about the game to make noise.
I don’t wanna name names or anything, Draylo. Because I’m definitely not here to point fingers, Homsar. But seeing everyone aggressively hash it out here was indeed a significant factor in my groups decision of where to play. It gave me things to consider and trails of information to investigate elsewhere so I could make the right decision for my groups needs/interests.
So like… thanks you guys. Please don’t stop fighting the good/stupid fight. I need you. We need you. And you didn’t even know it. Promote whatever you want, and promote with all your sincerity. Sane or not.
Never stop duking it out.
Yall are like the ROV conclusion (spoilers) The winds of conflict must ever blow over vanadiel lest it be consumed by the cloud of darkness.
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