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FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:00:33
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games). I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.
I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P
Does everyone playing on private servers own the game? Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.
Again it's not about owning a CD or a box, it's if you have the registration keys to play the game and those registration keys allow you to play on their servers.
The reason why companies don't go after private servers is mainly because it's too much hassle and money. Where is Horizon's server hosted? I doubt it's in the US. The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.
Proof that you purchased the license to use the software yes.
The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements.
By Seun 2023-12-16 21:01:38
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release. Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:02:05
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release. Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased. You really do love making arguments against things people don't say.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:07:02
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements. I suppose that argument could be made, but honestly I never asked my lawyers specifically about this aspect of it because I was only concerned about the liability of actually hosting the server itself. I'd be downright amazed if there was actually any sort of evidence that this was a thing any company has ever bothered to pursue though.
By Seun 2023-12-16 21:07:45
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release. Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased. You really do love making arguments against things people don't say. I like making arguments for the terms you claim you never saw, so sure. Why not.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:10:26
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release. Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased. You really do love making arguments against things people don't say. I like making arguments for the terms you claim you never saw, so sure. Why not. I'm sure Square Enix saw this and they are very proud of you.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:11:51
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements. I suppose that argument could be made, but honestly I never asked my lawyers specifically about this aspect of it because I was only concerned about the liability of actually hosting the server itself. I'd be downright amazed if there was actually any sort of evidence that this was a thing any company has ever bothered to pursue though.
Just because a company doesn't pursue it, that doesn't make it legal. The minute it makes financial and commercial sense to go after people committing IP theft, a company will.
Oh also from that other thread that was linked:
"What is unlawful is using someone else's IP without their consent, in this case the users using the FFXI client without a license to do so. It is also unlawful to encourage or otherwise assist others with breaking the law. The Horizon team providing instructions for how to bypass SE's restrictions on using their client in an unlicensed way is a good example of this."
"The Horizon users who are downloading SE's property then using that property without a license are most certainly breaking the law. If the Horizon staff are encouraging or assisting with people on how to download SE's property and use it without a license, they are also breaking the law.
Right now SE could drop a DMCA hammer onto Horizon staff and scrub it off the face of the planet, they could do the same to any Horizon user as well."
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:17:02
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements. I suppose that argument could be made, but honestly I never asked my lawyers specifically about this aspect of it because I was only concerned about the liability of actually hosting the server itself. I'd be downright amazed if there was actually any sort of evidence that this was a thing any company has ever bothered to pursue though. Oh and also another 'gray' area is the Horizon launcher. That is a method of distributing a modified version of the game in an unauthorized way. That again is IP theft. I already brought this point up, I'm pretty sure in this thread. Yes, this is a problem. Its one of the reasons that Wings didn't even have its own installer after I took over. (I think users set up a torrent for it but it wasn't something we did ourselves.)
One of the other major things that they do that my lawyers explicitly told me not to do was hide/alter any sort of branding or logos of the original IP owner. Horizon has pretty much plastered their logo over the top of all of Square's branding, which is not good.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 497
By Asura.Elizabet 2023-12-16 21:25:29
Now if y'all would bring back a private server for KillingIfrit forums I'd be all over it.
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Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:31:08
Basically emulating the server is fine as it's basically a database and server-side there is no art etc.
But technically no one should be playing on that server because everyone playing on that server is breaching licensing agreements through the usage of the client.
Horizon also are liable for unauthorized distribution whether that is through the launcher or just assisting to download and install the game to be used on their server.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:32:23
Now if y'all would bring back a private server for KillingIfrit forums I'd be all over it. That used to exist at one point!
I think it got overrun with porn bots though cause the moderator stopped paying attention.
By Seun 2023-12-16 21:35:06
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release. Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased. You really do love making arguments against things people don't say. I like making arguments for the terms you claim you never saw, so sure. Why not. I'm sure Square Enix saw this and they are very proud of you. Pretty much anyone who didn't want something they created used outside of their terms.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:42:15
Technically the instructions on this page (and link to torrent) are a breach of licensing agreements.
https://wingsxi.com/wings/index.php?page=play
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:50:35
Well aside from the fact that Wings no longer even operates, those are also from after I left. The person I handed everything off to built his own launcher and stuff.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 22:10:34
Well aside from the fact that Wings no longer even operates, those are also from after I left. The person I handed everything off to built his own launcher and stuff.
"The recommended way to play on wings is to use our official installer, available on our Discord."
https://web.archive.org/web/20210114215604/https://www.wingsxi.com/wings/index.php?page=play
Having the instructions/installer on Discord is no different as you are pointing to it, so yeah, at the time you very much could have been shut down if SE wanted to.
Ragnarok.Casey
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 179
By Ragnarok.Casey 2023-12-17 01:57:06
Quote: (6) You may not decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, or translate the Software. Quote: 2.4 Private Servers. You may not create, operate, participate in or use any unauthorized servers intended to emulate the Game. Good one, SE. Just like Nintendo's "backing up your own ROMs is illegal" and "emulators are illegal" spiel.
It's great that LSB requires you to use a fully up to date patched retail client so there's no need for LSB to distribute anything. All pservers that supply a launcher that downloads and patches the game for you are absolutely in a legal gray area, with the whole bit where SE supplies the client for free to anyone with or without an SE account or sub.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-17 05:22:42
SE supplies the download but not the usage license with that. It's not even a gray area honestly, it's just illegal. If they wanted to go after Horizon for distributing, they could.
Anyone playing on a private server is also copyright infringing. Private server users just think they are safe because SE has never gone after anyone for using a private server. It doesn't mean they can't though.
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Lakshmi.Alyx
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3
By Lakshmi.Alyx 2023-12-17 06:11:03
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »If they wanted to go after Horizon for distributing, they could.
I'm sure it would just be easier for SE to shut them down for the $18k+ in donations they have taken.
By Felgarr 2023-12-17 07:13:58
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »If they wanted to go after Horizon for distributing, they could.
I'm sure it would just be easier for SE to shut them down for the $18k+ in donations they have taken.
I think this would require SE to engage with NA and they just don't do it (even directly) unless they absolutely have to. :(
Unicorn.Ixn
Server: Unicorn
Game: FFXI
Posts: 94
By Unicorn.Ixn 2023-12-18 15:20:28
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Anyone playing on a private server is also copyright infringing. Private server users just think they are safe because SE has never gone after anyone for using a private server. It doesn't mean they can't though.
By this logic, you're also copyright infringing for using a 3rd party site related to the source material. I mean the official forums do exist ya? '3'
Why stop there, even Fan Art is subject to copyright. My avatar is a transformative piece, I made myself using stolen assets (I just changed the hair color to my FFXI's OC's [Do not steal]).
Software was always in the favor of the consumer when it came to law. You can tamper with it as much as you like since you do own it (game genie, bleem!, other emulators/modifiers).
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-18 16:31:46
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Anyone playing on a private server is also copyright infringing. Private server users just think they are safe because SE has never gone after anyone for using a private server. It doesn't mean they can't though.
By this logic, you're also copyright infringing for using a 3rd party site related to the source material. I mean the official forums do exist ya? '3'
Why stop there, even Fan Art is subject to copyright. My avatar is a transformative piece, I made myself using stolen assets (I just changed the hair color to my FFXI's OC's [Do not steal]).
Software was always in the favor of the consumer when it came to law. You can tamper with it as much as you like since you do own it (game genie, bleem!, other emulators/modifiers).
You don't own it (the game) though, not without the licenses. The server technology itself is fine and isn't what I am talking about. None of your examples are really relevant. Things like ROM websites are more in line with Horizon providing a launcher that gives a way to download and play a game without paying for it.
VIP
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1036
By Fenrir.Niflheim 2023-12-18 16:38:59
I think most of this conversation gets all muddied by the "it's a game" frame work.
What if we are talking about someone making a "private server" that let you use your Adobe Photoshop without a subscription to Adobe creative cloud, does that suddenly make this type of activity look clearly legal or illegal?
Is the stance that it is ok for ffxi only because they have a price tag on the "game account"/registration info? what would happen if they gave registrations away for free when you create an account? then just the monthly sub fee is the only money that ever exchanges hands, does that change the perspective for anyone?
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1508
By Fenrir.Richybear 2023-12-18 16:53:14
it's photoshop though, you can make things look pretty clear. Or sepia
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1508
By Fenrir.Richybear 2023-12-18 16:53:38
Tesa's probably like "Dammit Richy"
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 231
By Asura.Sabishii 2023-12-18 17:56:45
Anyone remember the private servers for vanilla World of Warcraft? Blizzard forced those off the internet (Cease and desisted), and some shut down willingly before that, when Blizzard announced they were making WoW classic servers?
Blizzard had every (legal) right to shutdown private WoW servers. WoW classic was different in ways from the retail servers at that time, but you could still play retail WoW, a game with a subscription service.
SE has every (legal) right to shutdown HorizonXI or any other private server.
The only difference is that Blizzard chose to do so, and SE hasn't yet. YET.
They might one day? Who knows!
There's a difference between a license to use software, and OWNING software. You can buy an original cartage copy Super Mario Bros. for the NES or Famicom (Japanese version). You can sell that cart to someone else, no problem. People have saved ROMs for NES, etc. carts and put it up on the internet (it's a gray area, legally and historically Nintendo, who owns the rights to the NES hardware and software, and Super Mario Bros, its characters, software code, copyright, etc.) Nintendo has gone after a lot of the people who host ROMs, etc. of old Nintendo games.
People have edited ROMs of SMB to make their own versions and given away patches, etc. to make new or modified versions of Super Mario Bros. I remember the old flash game where you could play Super Mario Bros as the machine from Master Blaster, the Contra dude, Samus from Metroid, etc. This argument might be where the emulation argument for HorizonXI comes from. It's not LEGALLY okay to do this, but you can't go and buy a brand new Super Nario cart brand new from Nintendo (but they DO have the NES Classic console, it's on the switch online service, etc.)
The big difference between the situation between Nintendo and Square Enix, specifically, the difference between Super Mario Bros. for the NES, and Final Fantasy 11 Online for PS2, Windows PC, XBOX360, is that you can go right now, to the SE store and steam, and buy the game and play it online right now: keyword ONLINE. It's an ONLINE game. Still in service too. If SE shuts down the FF11 servers one day completely, no replacement, etc. THEN I feel you'd have more of a right to run private servers. Phantasy Star Online (Episodes 1,2, blue burst, et al) don't exist through Sega anymore. There are private servers now. SEGA has the legal right to shut them down, but haven't, and for preservation reasons, I feel it's better to leave them running.
But when FF11 is still running as a service, still purchasable, still playable, with a subscription service. You can be banned for cheating on retail. It's SE SERVICE. They can terminate your right to play THEIR game at any point. They can shut down the servers entirely, THEN I feel people can and should setup private servers. When there's no other alternatives.
I feel that's where the difference lies.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-18 18:56:34
Anyone remember the private servers for vanilla World of Warcraft? Blizzard forced those off the internet (Cease and desisted), and some shut down willingly before that, when Blizzard announced they were making WoW classic servers?
It was only one server, called Nostalrius, and their thing always was "If Blizzard does an official Classic release we will shut down." They had been getting C&Ds for years, and ignoring them because they were hosted in Russia and Russian hosting companies don't care about international copyright claims.
The actual reason Nostalrius shut down was because the dev team was under the impression that after being approached by Blizzard to help work on Classic, that they had secured spots. A few months after they shut down, Blizzard announced at Blizzcon that they had no plans to actually do Classic. (Which went against what they told the Nostalrius team.)
The two head devs of Nostalrius retaliated by releasing the player database to another Classic project (called Elysium at the time) so that they could effectively relaunch Nostalrius. Because of this, Blizzard shut them out and then about a two years later announced official Classic.
I'm not sure where people get the impression that this had anything to do with the threat of litigation - it was never a real concern. All of this information is easily looked up by the way. I just happened to have been playing there when it happened.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-18 19:05:12
"It's not illegal because Russia won't enforce US laws" isn't exactly strong evidence that something is legal.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-18 19:09:08
Nobody came even close to saying that. I'm not even sure how someone could possibly have taken that away from what was said, I'm actually impressed.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 226
By Asura.Sensarity 2023-12-18 19:10:04
who gives a ***if its illegal or not
it doesn't matter until SE decides it does
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-18 19:28:56
They had been getting C&Ds for years, and ignoring them because they were hosted in Russia and Russian hosting companies don't care about international copyright claims.
Sorry, what did you mean when you said this?
I live again!!!
I used to play FF11, so did my SO. But that was long ago~
We’ve been playing FF14 for several years now with another couple, and a handful of family members and mutual friends. Every one of them has a prior history with the final fantasy franchise as a whole, though from different generations. In our banter at one time or another everyone has expressed a curiosity for FF11 which they had heard was both a masterpiece in its own right, as well as a rather daunting and at times a crushing experience. There is also a perception of boring gameplay (somehow the classic ‘I hit you, you hit me, then I hit you again’ RPG gameplay loop just isn’t doing it for em. Spoiled). Sadly, I corroborated this for them and helped to solidify that opinion. I’m sure many similar conversations have been had from former players of FF11 to curious people of a younger gaming generation about FF11 in its early iterations. I suspect this mentality and perspective is a factor in people seeking out private servers. It certainly was in the case of my group.
After Yoshi P announced the upcoming raid with ties to FF11, each of the people in our group became instantly interested in playing the game. Our messiah Yoshi Pesus had spoken. Everyone asked me, with clear apprehension "how should we go about it?? What do we have to do to experience the story and clear the 'main content'"? Initially I facepalmed and rolled my eyes, but I also figured I too would like to see the close of the FF11 story I never completed. As the pied piper considering getting ready to lead his flock into the fucking dunes, I started to dread the learning curve everyone was going to hit more or less immediately upon login.
To counter that, I figured a private server would likely be the way to go. Presumably, we could just “godmode” or something and stomp our way through all the bullshit, speed/position hack and see the story as painlessly as possible. Well not quite. It turns out I knew nothing about private servers, and it turns out “godmode” is the trust system and other QOL and travel adjustments they made to retail over the years. But let me back up for a second. In researching options for private servers I found out a lot of concerning information about private servers, and the general lack of options (WIP pet projects). All of it covered in the other threads, ranging from leadership concerns, to absolutely stupid changes to the game itself (e.g. THF changes), and a butchered soundtrack. The final nail in the coffin really being that if you want to see the full story it’s going to have to be on retail. But even without story as a consideration, after researching enough about Horizon and other private servers it’s become a no brainer for the group. Fuck it, just play retail. Turns out that was a great decision.
The learning curve for everyone is still steep, but there are guides. Everyone has been enjoying it so far, they love the story, they enjoy the simplified “zen” of exp grinding (which I bitter-sweetly remind them is “not as painful as it used to be”). They’re around lvl 70 now, starting on CoP, finished Nation rank ups, and the Zilart missions. They suck, every new moment is a challenge for them. It’s been a blast.
Now, none of this would have happened within my group without Yoshi P giving FF11 a major publicity bump by attaching it to FF14. I suspect that’s a significant factor going on for Horizons success. Just lucky with great timing. FF11 got the Yoshi P bump, but FF11 has a sort of infamy to it that gamers are aware of, and subsequently might be more likely to consider a private server first. Especially if they have had any influence on their perspective either from past play of 11 like myself, or opinions and anecdotes of past players. Horizon is definitely riding on that wave.
It’s just a perfect storm of opportunity and timing for Horizons leadership. I don’t think they’re that smart (look at their administrative in-house drama), they might be finding ways to capitalize on it now sure, but I think it’s mostly just luck and timing.
Now having said all that… I definitely now think the hostility to Horizon is warranted. My group alone resulted in 6 people buying the game and starting a sub, and the renewal of my and my SO’s sub. While 8 people is not that many people, I think its fair to say that if I didn’t look closely into private servers vs retail, I and my crew would likely have found ourselves on Horizon, and there would be that much less money going to FF11. I wonder how many other people responding to the Yoshi P bump are being funneled to horizon instead of retail due to aforementioned reasons, and what a waste that is since as far as I can tell, Yoshi P doing this crossover raid is an attempt at the initial steps for extending a lifeline to FF11.
If players do their homework and still decide to play on a… quasi-elementary-school-birdhouse-project-failure of a private server like Horizon, aight cool homie, whatever makes you happy, the world could use more happy people. Go play it champ. Throw some Ridill’s on some shit. Go get that E-body. And a pair of gaiters.
Horizon keeps getting attributed as having a sense of community, but if people come over to FF11 with their own community already from FF14, as is the case in my group. Well, that becomes a moot point. So does FF11's existing stale community. What you'll have is an opportunity for people to just start importing their own communities into your greater one. Your feelings on FF14 tourists bringing their culture to this antique game may vary, but that's another topic.
Yoshi P, and Horizon have created a renaissance opportunity for FF11 I think. The conflict you all are having is actually probably good for the game. And that will be my last point for now that I wish to make, and also a thank you of sorts to the people here who care enough about the game to make noise.
I don’t wanna name names or anything, Draylo. Because I’m definitely not here to point fingers, Homsar. But seeing everyone aggressively hash it out here was indeed a significant factor in my groups decision of where to play. It gave me things to consider and trails of information to investigate elsewhere so I could make the right decision for my groups needs/interests.
So like… thanks you guys. Please don’t stop fighting the good/stupid fight. I need you. We need you. And you didn’t even know it. Promote whatever you want, and promote with all your sincerity. Sane or not.
Never stop duking it out.
Yall are like the ROV conclusion (spoilers) The winds of conflict must ever blow over vanadiel lest it be consumed by the cloud of darkness.
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