FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, And You.

Eorzea Time
 
 
 
Language: JP EN FR DE
Version 3.1
New Items
users online
Forum » FFXI » HorizonXI » FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
First Page 2 3 ... 4 5 6 ... 9 10 11
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Stephenjd
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:00:33
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.

I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P

Does everyone playing on private servers own the game?
Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.

Again it's not about owning a CD or a box, it's if you have the registration keys to play the game and those registration keys allow you to play on their servers.

The reason why companies don't go after private servers is mainly because it's too much hassle and money. Where is Horizon's server hosted? I doubt it's in the US.
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.

Proof that you purchased the license to use the software yes.

The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements.
Offline
Posts: 1364
By Seun 2023-12-16 21:01:38
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.
Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased.
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:02:05
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Seun said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.
Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased.
You really do love making arguments against things people don't say.
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:07:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements.
I suppose that argument could be made, but honestly I never asked my lawyers specifically about this aspect of it because I was only concerned about the liability of actually hosting the server itself. I'd be downright amazed if there was actually any sort of evidence that this was a thing any company has ever bothered to pursue though.
Offline
Posts: 1364
By Seun 2023-12-16 21:07:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Seun said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.
Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased.
You really do love making arguments against things people don't say.
I like making arguments for the terms you claim you never saw, so sure. Why not.
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:10:26
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Seun said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Seun said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.
Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased.
You really do love making arguments against things people don't say.
I like making arguments for the terms you claim you never saw, so sure. Why not.
I'm sure Square Enix saw this and they are very proud of you.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Stephenjd
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:11:51
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements.
I suppose that argument could be made, but honestly I never asked my lawyers specifically about this aspect of it because I was only concerned about the liability of actually hosting the server itself. I'd be downright amazed if there was actually any sort of evidence that this was a thing any company has ever bothered to pursue though.

Just because a company doesn't pursue it, that doesn't make it legal. The minute it makes financial and commercial sense to go after people committing IP theft, a company will.

Oh also from that other thread that was linked:

"What is unlawful is using someone else's IP without their consent, in this case the users using the FFXI client without a license to do so. It is also unlawful to encourage or otherwise assist others with breaking the law. The Horizon team providing instructions for how to bypass SE's restrictions on using their client in an unlicensed way is a good example of this."

"The Horizon users who are downloading SE's property then using that property without a license are most certainly breaking the law. If the Horizon staff are encouraging or assisting with people on how to download SE's property and use it without a license, they are also breaking the law.

Right now SE could drop a DMCA hammer onto Horizon staff and scrub it off the face of the planet, they could do the same to any Horizon user as well."
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:17:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
The private server itself is not IP theft, the people using the client to play on the private server are likely committing IP theft through copyright and licensing infringements.
I suppose that argument could be made, but honestly I never asked my lawyers specifically about this aspect of it because I was only concerned about the liability of actually hosting the server itself. I'd be downright amazed if there was actually any sort of evidence that this was a thing any company has ever bothered to pursue though.
Oh and also another 'gray' area is the Horizon launcher. That is a method of distributing a modified version of the game in an unauthorized way. That again is IP theft.
I already brought this point up, I'm pretty sure in this thread. Yes, this is a problem. Its one of the reasons that Wings didn't even have its own installer after I took over. (I think users set up a torrent for it but it wasn't something we did ourselves.)

One of the other major things that they do that my lawyers explicitly told me not to do was hide/alter any sort of branding or logos of the original IP owner. Horizon has pretty much plastered their logo over the top of all of Square's branding, which is not good.
 Asura.Elizabet
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Elizabet
Posts: 497
By Asura.Elizabet 2023-12-16 21:25:29
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Now if y'all would bring back a private server for KillingIfrit forums I'd be all over it.
[+]
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Stephenjd
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:31:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Basically emulating the server is fine as it's basically a database and server-side there is no art etc.

But technically no one should be playing on that server because everyone playing on that server is breaching licensing agreements through the usage of the client.

Horizon also are liable for unauthorized distribution whether that is through the launcher or just assisting to download and install the game to be used on their server.
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:32:23
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Elizabet said: »
Now if y'all would bring back a private server for KillingIfrit forums I'd be all over it.
That used to exist at one point!

I think it got overrun with porn bots though cause the moderator stopped paying attention.
Offline
Posts: 1364
By Seun 2023-12-16 21:35:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Seun said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Seun said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.
Reg key is proof that you registered your license to play THEIR game on THEIR terms. Altana is displeased.
You really do love making arguments against things people don't say.
I like making arguments for the terms you claim you never saw, so sure. Why not.
I'm sure Square Enix saw this and they are very proud of you.
Pretty much anyone who didn't want something they created used outside of their terms.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Stephenjd
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 21:42:15
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Technically the instructions on this page (and link to torrent) are a breach of licensing agreements.

https://wingsxi.com/wings/index.php?page=play
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 21:50:35
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Technically the instructions on this page (and link to torrent) are a breach of licensing agreements.

https://wingsxi.com/wings/index.php?page=play
Well aside from the fact that Wings no longer even operates, those are also from after I left. The person I handed everything off to built his own launcher and stuff.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Stephenjd
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 22:10:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Technically the instructions on this page (and link to torrent) are a breach of licensing agreements.

https://wingsxi.com/wings/index.php?page=play
Well aside from the fact that Wings no longer even operates, those are also from after I left. The person I handed everything off to built his own launcher and stuff.

"The recommended way to play on wings is to use our official installer, available on our Discord."

https://web.archive.org/web/20210114215604/https://www.wingsxi.com/wings/index.php?page=play

Having the instructions/installer on Discord is no different as you are pointing to it, so yeah, at the time you very much could have been shut down if SE wanted to.
 Ragnarok.Casey
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
user: Casey
Posts: 179
By Ragnarok.Casey 2023-12-17 01:57:06
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
(6) You may not decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, or translate the Software.
Quote:
2.4 Private Servers. You may not create, operate, participate in or use any unauthorized servers intended to emulate the Game.
Good one, SE. Just like Nintendo's "backing up your own ROMs is illegal" and "emulators are illegal" spiel.

It's great that LSB requires you to use a fully up to date patched retail client so there's no need for LSB to distribute anything. All pservers that supply a launcher that downloads and patches the game for you are absolutely in a legal gray area, with the whole bit where SE supplies the client for free to anyone with or without an SE account or sub.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Stephenjd
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-17 05:22:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
SE supplies the download but not the usage license with that. It's not even a gray area honestly, it's just illegal. If they wanted to go after Horizon for distributing, they could.

Anyone playing on a private server is also copyright infringing. Private server users just think they are safe because SE has never gone after anyone for using a private server. It doesn't mean they can't though.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Alyx
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Alyx
Posts: 3
By Lakshmi.Alyx 2023-12-17 06:11:03
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
If they wanted to go after Horizon for distributing, they could.

I'm sure it would just be easier for SE to shut them down for the $18k+ in donations they have taken.
Offline
Posts: 2041
By Felgarr 2023-12-17 07:13:58
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Lakshmi.Alyx said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
If they wanted to go after Horizon for distributing, they could.

I'm sure it would just be easier for SE to shut them down for the $18k+ in donations they have taken.

I think this would require SE to engage with NA and they just don't do it (even directly) unless they absolutely have to. :(
 Unicorn.Ixn
Offline
Server: Unicorn
Game: FFXI
user: unknown
Posts: 94
By Unicorn.Ixn 2023-12-18 15:20:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Anyone playing on a private server is also copyright infringing. Private server users just think they are safe because SE has never gone after anyone for using a private server. It doesn't mean they can't though.

By this logic, you're also copyright infringing for using a 3rd party site related to the source material. I mean the official forums do exist ya? '3'

Why stop there, even Fan Art is subject to copyright. My avatar is a transformative piece, I made myself using stolen assets (I just changed the hair color to my FFXI's OC's [Do not steal]).

Software was always in the favor of the consumer when it came to law. You can tamper with it as much as you like since you do own it (game genie, bleem!, other emulators/modifiers).
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
Offline
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
user: Stephenjd
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-18 16:31:46
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Unicorn.Ixn said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Anyone playing on a private server is also copyright infringing. Private server users just think they are safe because SE has never gone after anyone for using a private server. It doesn't mean they can't though.

By this logic, you're also copyright infringing for using a 3rd party site related to the source material. I mean the official forums do exist ya? '3'

Why stop there, even Fan Art is subject to copyright. My avatar is a transformative piece, I made myself using stolen assets (I just changed the hair color to my FFXI's OC's [Do not steal]).

Software was always in the favor of the consumer when it came to law. You can tamper with it as much as you like since you do own it (game genie, bleem!, other emulators/modifiers).

You don't own it (the game) though, not without the licenses. The server technology itself is fine and isn't what I am talking about. None of your examples are really relevant. Things like ROM websites are more in line with Horizon providing a launcher that gives a way to download and play a game without paying for it.
 Fenrir.Niflheim
VIP
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Tesahade
Posts: 1036
By Fenrir.Niflheim 2023-12-18 16:38:59
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I think most of this conversation gets all muddied by the "it's a game" frame work.

What if we are talking about someone making a "private server" that let you use your Adobe Photoshop without a subscription to Adobe creative cloud, does that suddenly make this type of activity look clearly legal or illegal?

Is the stance that it is ok for ffxi only because they have a price tag on the "game account"/registration info? what would happen if they gave registrations away for free when you create an account? then just the monthly sub fee is the only money that ever exchanges hands, does that change the perspective for anyone?
[+]
 Fenrir.Richybear
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Richybear
Posts: 1508
By Fenrir.Richybear 2023-12-18 16:53:14
Link | Quote | Reply
 
it's photoshop though, you can make things look pretty clear. Or sepia
[+]
 Fenrir.Richybear
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Richybear
Posts: 1508
By Fenrir.Richybear 2023-12-18 16:53:38
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Tesa's probably like "Dammit Richy"
[+]
 Asura.Sabishii
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Sabishii
Posts: 231
By Asura.Sabishii 2023-12-18 17:56:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Anyone remember the private servers for vanilla World of Warcraft? Blizzard forced those off the internet (Cease and desisted), and some shut down willingly before that, when Blizzard announced they were making WoW classic servers?

Blizzard had every (legal) right to shutdown private WoW servers. WoW classic was different in ways from the retail servers at that time, but you could still play retail WoW, a game with a subscription service.

SE has every (legal) right to shutdown HorizonXI or any other private server.

The only difference is that Blizzard chose to do so, and SE hasn't yet. YET.

They might one day? Who knows!

There's a difference between a license to use software, and OWNING software. You can buy an original cartage copy Super Mario Bros. for the NES or Famicom (Japanese version). You can sell that cart to someone else, no problem. People have saved ROMs for NES, etc. carts and put it up on the internet (it's a gray area, legally and historically Nintendo, who owns the rights to the NES hardware and software, and Super Mario Bros, its characters, software code, copyright, etc.) Nintendo has gone after a lot of the people who host ROMs, etc. of old Nintendo games.

People have edited ROMs of SMB to make their own versions and given away patches, etc. to make new or modified versions of Super Mario Bros. I remember the old flash game where you could play Super Mario Bros as the machine from Master Blaster, the Contra dude, Samus from Metroid, etc. This argument might be where the emulation argument for HorizonXI comes from. It's not LEGALLY okay to do this, but you can't go and buy a brand new Super Nario cart brand new from Nintendo (but they DO have the NES Classic console, it's on the switch online service, etc.)

The big difference between the situation between Nintendo and Square Enix, specifically, the difference between Super Mario Bros. for the NES, and Final Fantasy 11 Online for PS2, Windows PC, XBOX360, is that you can go right now, to the SE store and steam, and buy the game and play it online right now: keyword ONLINE. It's an ONLINE game. Still in service too. If SE shuts down the FF11 servers one day completely, no replacement, etc. THEN I feel you'd have more of a right to run private servers. Phantasy Star Online (Episodes 1,2, blue burst, et al) don't exist through Sega anymore. There are private servers now. SEGA has the legal right to shut them down, but haven't, and for preservation reasons, I feel it's better to leave them running.

But when FF11 is still running as a service, still purchasable, still playable, with a subscription service. You can be banned for cheating on retail. It's SE SERVICE. They can terminate your right to play THEIR game at any point. They can shut down the servers entirely, THEN I feel people can and should setup private servers. When there's no other alternatives.

I feel that's where the difference lies.
[+]
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-18 18:56:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Sabishii said: »
Anyone remember the private servers for vanilla World of Warcraft? Blizzard forced those off the internet (Cease and desisted), and some shut down willingly before that, when Blizzard announced they were making WoW classic servers?

It was only one server, called Nostalrius, and their thing always was "If Blizzard does an official Classic release we will shut down." They had been getting C&Ds for years, and ignoring them because they were hosted in Russia and Russian hosting companies don't care about international copyright claims.

The actual reason Nostalrius shut down was because the dev team was under the impression that after being approached by Blizzard to help work on Classic, that they had secured spots. A few months after they shut down, Blizzard announced at Blizzcon that they had no plans to actually do Classic. (Which went against what they told the Nostalrius team.)

The two head devs of Nostalrius retaliated by releasing the player database to another Classic project (called Elysium at the time) so that they could effectively relaunch Nostalrius. Because of this, Blizzard shut them out and then about a two years later announced official Classic.

I'm not sure where people get the impression that this had anything to do with the threat of litigation - it was never a real concern. All of this information is easily looked up by the way. I just happened to have been playing there when it happened.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: maletaru
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-18 19:05:12
Link | Quote | Reply
 
"It's not illegal because Russia won't enforce US laws" isn't exactly strong evidence that something is legal.
 Asura.Gweivyth
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: gweiv
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-18 19:09:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Nobody came even close to saying that. I'm not even sure how someone could possibly have taken that away from what was said, I'm actually impressed.
 Asura.Sensarity
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Meeeeeep
Posts: 226
By Asura.Sensarity 2023-12-18 19:10:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
who gives a ***if its illegal or not
it doesn't matter until SE decides it does
[+]
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: maletaru
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-18 19:28:56
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
They had been getting C&Ds for years, and ignoring them because they were hosted in Russia and Russian hosting companies don't care about international copyright claims.

Sorry, what did you mean when you said this?
First Page 2 3 ... 4 5 6 ... 9 10 11