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FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 19:50:57
Oh, right, the expansion keys are included on Steam. All of that content is still part of the client, you just have to pay to actually unlock them on the official servers. It's the same as buying a Tesla without auto drive - the car still has the feature built into it, you just can't use it cause you didn't pay up. Doesn't mean you stole the auto pilot equipment.
By Seun 2023-12-16 19:51:21
Well they already offer those assets for free anyway. The game client is and always has been free. What you pay for is access to their servers. So no, nothing is being "stolen."
Initially, you purchased a box with reg codes to activate for access to download it. Then you pay 11.95 for 'service' and 1.00 for each character.
Even now that anyone can download it, you're still expected to register the game and subscribe for service. That's not free.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 19:53:03
But you did 'steal' it because you are using it in a way you did not agree to use it (in this case for a private server rather than to trial FFXI). You broke the licensing agreement.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 19:56:54
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I don't think anyone needs to be a lawyer to read through the User agreement and find a dozen things SE explicitly tells you not to do that PS players & admins are breaking.
Do you think it's 100% legal to use SE's art and IP to create a website where you tell people to play FFXI on your server? You're arguing against a point I didn't make.
The software itself is 100% freeware. You can't steal something that doesn't cost money, period.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:01:50
Freeware can still have licensing agreements. Just because the word has "free" in it , that doesn't mean it is free to use as you wish. It is free to download, not free to use.
There's an actual difference between freeware and free software. Freeware often has a licensing restriction, whether that be for use in a certain way, on a certain server or for reverse engineering. Private servers break that licensing agreement and so it is seen as theft in law.
"As one of the most common forms of IP theft across different industries and sectors, copyright infringement refers to the unauthorized use, distribution, or duplication of a creative work protected by copyright law. This includes software, music, films, books, and other creative works."
By Seun 2023-12-16 20:03:26
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms...
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:04:58
TIL:
Freeware refers to software that requires no paid licenses to use the application, no fees or donations, no restrictions on how many times you can download or open the program, and no expiration date.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:07:04
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Freeware can still have licensing agreements. Just because the word has "free" in it , that doesn't mean it is free to use as you wish. It is free to download, not free to use. If there's anything I've learned over the years about terms of service, it's (1) they aren't actually legally binding in any way, (2) they are primarily in place for arbitrary enforcement of rules by companies against their customers, and (3) nobody actually abides by them because there is no single use-case for software anymore.
The things you're referencing are no more or less valid than the terms that you break every single time you log in with Windower or say a bad word in chat, so maybe we shouldn't be using them as some sort of ivory tower defense either.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:08:30
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms... You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:09:16
Funny, because the first 5 results when you Google "Are user agreements legally binding" all say yes, they are legally binding.
Sure, the user agreement for FFXI also says they can ban you for any, or no, reason. Fortunately they don't choose to execute that power, because they absolutely could. It's what we all agreed to when we signed up to play their game.
Asura.Rekcuf
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 219
By Asura.Rekcuf 2023-12-16 20:09:23
*** you guys u made me hate ffxi
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:11:53
By Seun 2023-12-16 20:12:13
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms... You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)
Ah, the old "I didn't see the terms, therefore they do not exist" defense. k
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:18:53
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms... You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)
False. The terms are on the download page.
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/download/media/sysinfo01.html?pageID=media
"Please read the license agreement carefully. You must agree to its terms before installing this software. Please also note that your system may not be able to run this software due to the configuration of your computer and/or resident software." http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/download/media/install_win.html
I don't see them, just the exes?
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms... You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)
Ah, the old "I didn't see the terms, therefore they do not exist" defense. k Well that is explicitly how they work. You can't agree to something you never saw. That's why they universally require you to check a box and confirm that you've been presented with them. The funnier part is that many of those check boxes don't even actually send that acknowledgement anywhere, so...yeah that isn't good either.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:23:02
"The client for the FINAL FANTASY XI : Ultimate Collection Seekers Edition can be downloaded for free from this page. Please note, however, that a registration code is not included. "
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/download/media/install_win.html
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:24:33
I genuinely don't wish ill on the players or admins of these servers, but I would find it ABSOLUTELY hilarious if action was actually taken and it went to court.
Would love to see the deposition:
"Is your name *Gweivyth's legal name*?"
"Have you ever lived at *Address*?"
"Have you held a credit card with *credit card number*?"
"Have you ever had an email address *email address*?"
"Did you have a character named Gweivyth?"
I'd like to direct your attention to exhibit 7b, the user agreement that Mr. *Gweivyth's last name* signed 72 times after each patch.
Mr. *Gweivyth* could you read us sub-section 2.6?
I guess you may be technically correct that someone might be able to go to the website and download some files and maybe all the infrastructure for all these PS could be created strictly from those 5 files. I'm not sure how all that works. That still would require that all the players, architects, and people running these servers had never signed the user agreement though. Otherwise they'd be *** 8 ways from Sunday.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:26:44
You can download for free, but you can't use the software for free. It's literally everywhere on the website. It's up to you to check the rules and policies page and you don't need to sign up for an account or install the game to do that.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:31:08
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I genuinely don't wish ill on the players or admins of these servers, but I would find it ABSOLUTELY hilarious if action was actually taken and it went to court.
Would love to see the deposition:
"Is your name *Gweivyth's legal name*?"
"Have you ever lived at *Address*?"
"Have you held a credit card with *credit card number*?"
"Have you ever had an email address *email address*?"
"Did you have a character named Gweivyth?"
I'd like to direct your attention to exhibit 7b, the user agreement that Mr. *Gweivyth's last name* signed 72 times after each patch.
Mr. *Gweivyth* could you read us sub-section 2.6?
I guess you may be technically correct that someone might be able to go to the website and download some files and maybe all the infrastructure for all these PS could be created strictly from those 5 files. I'm not sure how all that works. That still would require that all the players, architects, and people running these servers had never signed the user agreement though. Otherwise they'd be *** 8 ways from Sunday.
There's plenty of precedent behind emulation so not much to worry about there. Atom0s made a post with a bunch of good references a while back, let me see if I can find it. Pretty much everything he said lines up with what lawyers advised me of before we launched Wings too.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:34:47
When you buy an NES you don't sign an agreement telling them you won't:
Quote: 2.4 Private Servers. You may not create, operate, participate in or use any unauthorized servers intended to emulate the Game.
Quote: 2.6 Hacking and Circumvention. You may not hack, disassemble, decompile, or otherwise modify the Game or server computer code, whether the Game code is located on a DVD, Blu-rayTM disc, your computer/console or on SQUARE ENIX’s servers, except as expressly permitted by SQUARE ENIX or applicable law.
Quote: 2.7 Modifying or Creating Derivative Software. You may not modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game or Service in any way not expressly authorized by SQUARE ENIX, and may not make any derivative works of the Game.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:35:57
Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:36:27
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:41:57
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games). I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.
I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:45:13
In a long-winded way he is saying is that it is a gray area. Literally what I said to begin with. He even said he was not a lawyer and could not say for sure if it was legal/illegal.
The emulation of a server is legal, what it is used for is probably not and not with the files that SE has on their website.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:45:29
Funny quote
Oof, read the back of the box before you post this.
"Unauthorized Copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited"
[+]
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:46:09
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games). I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.
I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P
Does everyone playing on private servers own the game?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:49:15
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Funny quote
Oof, read the back of the box before you post this.
"Unauthorized Copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited" Well mine are PC and PS2 so...they don't say that. They do say some interesting stuff about how these are not for resale by the previous owner though, so if Square wants to go after the guy I bought these from at the flea market I guess they've got some detective work to do.
Also I just realized thanks to this post that my Wings of the Goddess copy is sealed, so I think it probably has a registration key in there, lol. I'm not gonna open it to find out but talk about a relic.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:51:31
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games). I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.
I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P
Does everyone playing on private servers own the game? Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.
Bismarck.Stephenjd
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:54:43
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games). I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.
I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P
Does everyone playing on private servers own the game? Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.
Again it's not about owning a CD or a box, it's if you have the registration keys to play the game and those registration keys allow you to play on their servers.
The reason why companies don't go after private servers is mainly because it's too much hassle and money. Where is Horizon's server hosted? I doubt it's in the US.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3373
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:56:19
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Funny quote
Oof, read the back of the box before you post this.
"Unauthorized Copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited" Well mine are PC and PS2 so...they don't say that. They do say some interesting stuff about how these are not for resale by the previous owner though, so if Square wants to go after the guy I bought these from at the flea market I guess they've got some detective work to do.
Also I just realized thanks to this post that my Wings of the Goddess copy is sealed, so I think it probably has a registration key in there, lol. I'm not gonna open it to find out but talk about a relic.
I mean, the back of this PC WOTG box says: "Acceptance of certain agreements is required. View them at Playonline.com"
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 177
By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:58:34
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games). I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.
I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P
Does everyone playing on private servers own the game? Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.
Again it's not about owning a CD or a box, it's if you have the registration keys to play the game and those registration keys allow you to play on their servers.
The reason why companies don't go after private servers is mainly because it's too much hassle and money. Where is Horizon's server hosted? I doubt it's in the US. The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.
Horizon is hosted by OVH apparently, same company Wings used. So either the US or France.
I live again!!!
I used to play FF11, so did my SO. But that was long ago~
We’ve been playing FF14 for several years now with another couple, and a handful of family members and mutual friends. Every one of them has a prior history with the final fantasy franchise as a whole, though from different generations. In our banter at one time or another everyone has expressed a curiosity for FF11 which they had heard was both a masterpiece in its own right, as well as a rather daunting and at times a crushing experience. There is also a perception of boring gameplay (somehow the classic ‘I hit you, you hit me, then I hit you again’ RPG gameplay loop just isn’t doing it for em. Spoiled). Sadly, I corroborated this for them and helped to solidify that opinion. I’m sure many similar conversations have been had from former players of FF11 to curious people of a younger gaming generation about FF11 in its early iterations. I suspect this mentality and perspective is a factor in people seeking out private servers. It certainly was in the case of my group.
After Yoshi P announced the upcoming raid with ties to FF11, each of the people in our group became instantly interested in playing the game. Our messiah Yoshi Pesus had spoken. Everyone asked me, with clear apprehension "how should we go about it?? What do we have to do to experience the story and clear the 'main content'"? Initially I facepalmed and rolled my eyes, but I also figured I too would like to see the close of the FF11 story I never completed. As the pied piper considering getting ready to lead his flock into the fucking dunes, I started to dread the learning curve everyone was going to hit more or less immediately upon login.
To counter that, I figured a private server would likely be the way to go. Presumably, we could just “godmode” or something and stomp our way through all the bullshit, speed/position hack and see the story as painlessly as possible. Well not quite. It turns out I knew nothing about private servers, and it turns out “godmode” is the trust system and other QOL and travel adjustments they made to retail over the years. But let me back up for a second. In researching options for private servers I found out a lot of concerning information about private servers, and the general lack of options (WIP pet projects). All of it covered in the other threads, ranging from leadership concerns, to absolutely stupid changes to the game itself (e.g. THF changes), and a butchered soundtrack. The final nail in the coffin really being that if you want to see the full story it’s going to have to be on retail. But even without story as a consideration, after researching enough about Horizon and other private servers it’s become a no brainer for the group. Fuck it, just play retail. Turns out that was a great decision.
The learning curve for everyone is still steep, but there are guides. Everyone has been enjoying it so far, they love the story, they enjoy the simplified “zen” of exp grinding (which I bitter-sweetly remind them is “not as painful as it used to be”). They’re around lvl 70 now, starting on CoP, finished Nation rank ups, and the Zilart missions. They suck, every new moment is a challenge for them. It’s been a blast.
Now, none of this would have happened within my group without Yoshi P giving FF11 a major publicity bump by attaching it to FF14. I suspect that’s a significant factor going on for Horizons success. Just lucky with great timing. FF11 got the Yoshi P bump, but FF11 has a sort of infamy to it that gamers are aware of, and subsequently might be more likely to consider a private server first. Especially if they have had any influence on their perspective either from past play of 11 like myself, or opinions and anecdotes of past players. Horizon is definitely riding on that wave.
It’s just a perfect storm of opportunity and timing for Horizons leadership. I don’t think they’re that smart (look at their administrative in-house drama), they might be finding ways to capitalize on it now sure, but I think it’s mostly just luck and timing.
Now having said all that… I definitely now think the hostility to Horizon is warranted. My group alone resulted in 6 people buying the game and starting a sub, and the renewal of my and my SO’s sub. While 8 people is not that many people, I think its fair to say that if I didn’t look closely into private servers vs retail, I and my crew would likely have found ourselves on Horizon, and there would be that much less money going to FF11. I wonder how many other people responding to the Yoshi P bump are being funneled to horizon instead of retail due to aforementioned reasons, and what a waste that is since as far as I can tell, Yoshi P doing this crossover raid is an attempt at the initial steps for extending a lifeline to FF11.
If players do their homework and still decide to play on a… quasi-elementary-school-birdhouse-project-failure of a private server like Horizon, aight cool homie, whatever makes you happy, the world could use more happy people. Go play it champ. Throw some Ridill’s on some shit. Go get that E-body. And a pair of gaiters.
Horizon keeps getting attributed as having a sense of community, but if people come over to FF11 with their own community already from FF14, as is the case in my group. Well, that becomes a moot point. So does FF11's existing stale community. What you'll have is an opportunity for people to just start importing their own communities into your greater one. Your feelings on FF14 tourists bringing their culture to this antique game may vary, but that's another topic.
Yoshi P, and Horizon have created a renaissance opportunity for FF11 I think. The conflict you all are having is actually probably good for the game. And that will be my last point for now that I wish to make, and also a thank you of sorts to the people here who care enough about the game to make noise.
I don’t wanna name names or anything, Draylo. Because I’m definitely not here to point fingers, Homsar. But seeing everyone aggressively hash it out here was indeed a significant factor in my groups decision of where to play. It gave me things to consider and trails of information to investigate elsewhere so I could make the right decision for my groups needs/interests.
So like… thanks you guys. Please don’t stop fighting the good/stupid fight. I need you. We need you. And you didn’t even know it. Promote whatever you want, and promote with all your sincerity. Sane or not.
Never stop duking it out.
Yall are like the ROV conclusion (spoilers) The winds of conflict must ever blow over vanadiel lest it be consumed by the cloud of darkness.
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