FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, And You.

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FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
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 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 19:50:57
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Oh, right, the expansion keys are included on Steam. All of that content is still part of the client, you just have to pay to actually unlock them on the official servers. It's the same as buying a Tesla without auto drive - the car still has the feature built into it, you just can't use it cause you didn't pay up. Doesn't mean you stole the auto pilot equipment.
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By Seun 2023-12-16 19:51:21
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Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Well they already offer those assets for free anyway. The game client is and always has been free. What you pay for is access to their servers. So no, nothing is being "stolen."

Initially, you purchased a box with reg codes to activate for access to download it. Then you pay 11.95 for 'service' and 1.00 for each character.

Even now that anyone can download it, you're still expected to register the game and subscribe for service. That's not free.
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 19:53:03
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But you did 'steal' it because you are using it in a way you did not agree to use it (in this case for a private server rather than to trial FFXI). You broke the licensing agreement.
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 19:56:54
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I don't think anyone needs to be a lawyer to read through the User agreement and find a dozen things SE explicitly tells you not to do that PS players & admins are breaking.

Do you think it's 100% legal to use SE's art and IP to create a website where you tell people to play FFXI on your server?
You're arguing against a point I didn't make.

The software itself is 100% freeware. You can't steal something that doesn't cost money, period.
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:01:50
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Freeware can still have licensing agreements. Just because the word has "free" in it , that doesn't mean it is free to use as you wish. It is free to download, not free to use.

There's an actual difference between freeware and free software. Freeware often has a licensing restriction, whether that be for use in a certain way, on a certain server or for reverse engineering. Private servers break that licensing agreement and so it is seen as theft in law.

"As one of the most common forms of IP theft across different industries and sectors, copyright infringement refers to the unauthorized use, distribution, or duplication of a creative work protected by copyright law. This includes software, music, films, books, and other creative works."
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By Seun 2023-12-16 20:03:26
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It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms...
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:04:58
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TIL:

Freeware refers to software that requires no paid licenses to use the application, no fees or donations, no restrictions on how many times you can download or open the program, and no expiration date.
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:07:04
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Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Freeware can still have licensing agreements. Just because the word has "free" in it , that doesn't mean it is free to use as you wish. It is free to download, not free to use.
If there's anything I've learned over the years about terms of service, it's (1) they aren't actually legally binding in any way, (2) they are primarily in place for arbitrary enforcement of rules by companies against their customers, and (3) nobody actually abides by them because there is no single use-case for software anymore.

The things you're referencing are no more or less valid than the terms that you break every single time you log in with Windower or say a bad word in chat, so maybe we shouldn't be using them as some sort of ivory tower defense either.
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:08:30
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Seun said: »
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms...
You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:09:16
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Funny, because the first 5 results when you Google "Are user agreements legally binding" all say yes, they are legally binding.

Sure, the user agreement for FFXI also says they can ban you for any, or no, reason. Fortunately they don't choose to execute that power, because they absolutely could. It's what we all agreed to when we signed up to play their game.
 Asura.Rekcuf
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By Asura.Rekcuf 2023-12-16 20:09:23
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*** you guys u made me hate ffxi
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:11:53
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https://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1&tag=ff11user

https://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1&tag=ff11soft

2.4 Private Servers. You may not create, operate, participate in or use any unauthorized servers intended to emulate the Game.
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By Seun 2023-12-16 20:12:13
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Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Seun said: »
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms...
You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)

Ah, the old "I didn't see the terms, therefore they do not exist" defense. k
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:18:53
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Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Seun said: »
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms...
You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)

False. The terms are on the download page.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/download/media/sysinfo01.html?pageID=media

"Please read the license agreement carefully. You must agree to its terms before installing this software. Please also note that your system may not be able to run this software due to the configuration of your computer and/or resident software."
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/download/media/install_win.html

I don't see them, just the exes?

Seun said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Seun said: »
It's only 'free' to download because you're agreeing to their terms...
You're never actually presented with the terms until you either create an account (which is not necessary to download the software) or when you install it. (Also not necessary to launch the software, files can be launched sandboxed.)

Ah, the old "I didn't see the terms, therefore they do not exist" defense. k
Well that is explicitly how they work. You can't agree to something you never saw. That's why they universally require you to check a box and confirm that you've been presented with them. The funnier part is that many of those check boxes don't even actually send that acknowledgement anywhere, so...yeah that isn't good either.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:23:02
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"The client for the FINAL FANTASY XI : Ultimate Collection Seekers Edition can be downloaded for free from this page. Please note, however, that a registration code is not included. "

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/download/media/install_win.html
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:24:33
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I genuinely don't wish ill on the players or admins of these servers, but I would find it ABSOLUTELY hilarious if action was actually taken and it went to court.

Would love to see the deposition:

"Is your name *Gweivyth's legal name*?"
"Have you ever lived at *Address*?"
"Have you held a credit card with *credit card number*?"
"Have you ever had an email address *email address*?"
"Did you have a character named Gweivyth?"

I'd like to direct your attention to exhibit 7b, the user agreement that Mr. *Gweivyth's last name* signed 72 times after each patch.

Mr. *Gweivyth* could you read us sub-section 2.6?

I guess you may be technically correct that someone might be able to go to the website and download some files and maybe all the infrastructure for all these PS could be created strictly from those 5 files. I'm not sure how all that works. That still would require that all the players, architects, and people running these servers had never signed the user agreement though. Otherwise they'd be *** 8 ways from Sunday.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:26:44
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You can download for free, but you can't use the software for free. It's literally everywhere on the website. It's up to you to check the rules and policies page and you don't need to sign up for an account or install the game to do that.
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:31:08
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I genuinely don't wish ill on the players or admins of these servers, but I would find it ABSOLUTELY hilarious if action was actually taken and it went to court.

Would love to see the deposition:

"Is your name *Gweivyth's legal name*?"
"Have you ever lived at *Address*?"
"Have you held a credit card with *credit card number*?"
"Have you ever had an email address *email address*?"
"Did you have a character named Gweivyth?"

I'd like to direct your attention to exhibit 7b, the user agreement that Mr. *Gweivyth's last name* signed 72 times after each patch.

Mr. *Gweivyth* could you read us sub-section 2.6?

I guess you may be technically correct that someone might be able to go to the website and download some files and maybe all the infrastructure for all these PS could be created strictly from those 5 files. I'm not sure how all that works. That still would require that all the players, architects, and people running these servers had never signed the user agreement though. Otherwise they'd be *** 8 ways from Sunday.

There's plenty of precedent behind emulation so not much to worry about there. Atom0s made a post with a bunch of good references a while back, let me see if I can find it. Pretty much everything he said lines up with what lawyers advised me of before we launched Wings too.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:34:47
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When you buy an NES you don't sign an agreement telling them you won't:

Quote:
2.4 Private Servers. You may not create, operate, participate in or use any unauthorized servers intended to emulate the Game.

Quote:
2.6 Hacking and Circumvention. You may not hack, disassemble, decompile, or otherwise modify the Game or server computer code, whether the Game code is located on a DVD, Blu-rayTM disc, your computer/console or on SQUARE ENIX’s servers, except as expressly permitted by SQUARE ENIX or applicable law.

Quote:
2.7 Modifying or Creating Derivative Software. You may not modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game or Service in any way not expressly authorized by SQUARE ENIX, and may not make any derivative works of the Game.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:35:57
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Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:36:27
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Here we go, these are the ones and they're both pretty good. A little nerdy, but good.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57551/if-horizon-had-a-1-monthly-fee/9#3683776

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/57551/if-horizon-had-a-1-monthly-fee/10/#3683849
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:41:57
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Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.

I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:45:13
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In a long-winded way he is saying is that it is a gray area. Literally what I said to begin with. He even said he was not a lawyer and could not say for sure if it was legal/illegal.

The emulation of a server is legal, what it is used for is probably not and not with the files that SE has on their website.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:45:29
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Funny quote

Oof, read the back of the box before you post this.

"Unauthorized Copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited"
[+]
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:46:09
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Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.

I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P

Does everyone playing on private servers own the game?
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:49:15
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Funny quote

Oof, read the back of the box before you post this.

"Unauthorized Copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited"
Well mine are PC and PS2 so...they don't say that. They do say some interesting stuff about how these are not for resale by the previous owner though, so if Square wants to go after the guy I bought these from at the flea market I guess they've got some detective work to do.

Also I just realized thanks to this post that my Wings of the Goddess copy is sealed, so I think it probably has a registration key in there, lol. I'm not gonna open it to find out but talk about a relic.
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:51:31
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Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.

I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P

Does everyone playing on private servers own the game?
Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.
 Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-16 20:54:43
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Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.

I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P

Does everyone playing on private servers own the game?
Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.

Again it's not about owning a CD or a box, it's if you have the registration keys to play the game and those registration keys allow you to play on their servers.

The reason why companies don't go after private servers is mainly because it's too much hassle and money. Where is Horizon's server hosted? I doubt it's in the US.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-16 20:56:19
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Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Funny quote

Oof, read the back of the box before you post this.

"Unauthorized Copying, reverse engineering, transmission, public performance, rental, pay for play, or circumvention of copy protection is strictly prohibited"
Well mine are PC and PS2 so...they don't say that. They do say some interesting stuff about how these are not for resale by the previous owner though, so if Square wants to go after the guy I bought these from at the flea market I guess they've got some detective work to do.

Also I just realized thanks to this post that my Wings of the Goddess copy is sealed, so I think it probably has a registration key in there, lol. I'm not gonna open it to find out but talk about a relic.

I mean, the back of this PC WOTG box says: "Acceptance of certain agreements is required. View them at Playonline.com"
 Asura.Gweivyth
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-16 20:58:34
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Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Asura.Gweivyth said: »
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »
Playing a game on an emulator is only legal if you have the license to play said game (ripping your own games).
I do own Final Fantasy XI. Checkmate, atheists.

I've got TOAU and the big box for PS2 kicking around here somewhere too. :P

Does everyone playing on private servers own the game?
Shrug, that's between them and Square. I'm all good.

Again it's not about owning a CD or a box, it's if you have the registration keys to play the game and those registration keys allow you to play on their servers.

The reason why companies don't go after private servers is mainly because it's too much hassle and money. Where is Horizon's server hosted? I doubt it's in the US.
The registration keys are proof of purchase. Wings of the Goddess was the last expansion that had a physical media release.

Horizon is hosted by OVH apparently, same company Wings used. So either the US or France.
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