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Stage 4 Prime Weapon's effect on Sortie
 Asura.Hya
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 330
By Asura.Hya 2023-07-30 10:54:24
Additional BIG advantage of Primes is providing the most powerful WSs unique to jobs, which is very impactful for fights with WS wall. Take Xevioso for example. If you use DRG+SAM or DRG+WAR, DRG can use WS much stronger than Impulse Drive and WAR or SAM can use Impulse drive. Not only DRG will do more damage, but they won't WS wall each other. Same for DNC in that fight, you can you Ruthless strike and BRD can use Rudra. By the time a player has a stage 5, or even a stage 4 Prime Weapon, they have most likely already completed Gaol and capped RP. At that point, they aren't fighting Xevioso for any other reason than to help (carry) other players. So, again, the BIG advantage of these weapons comes down to using them on something that you have already crushed, only out of the goodness of your own heart.
By Pantafernando 2023-07-30 11:44:22
Somehow this kinda remind me the FFXII Tournassol.
The best weapon that you need to beat all the hardest foe to get it.
But then…. At that point it just becomes a trophy. Because you simply vanished the hardest foe, why would you want more power to beat something that has no reason to beat?
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By Pantafernando 2023-07-30 11:45:00
Get your stage 4 weapon, guys, and enjoy the last challenge!
Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 313
By Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello 2023-07-30 11:45:08
Being able to 3 step darkness or light with strongest available WS crushes other solo dps options by miles on many jobs.
How are you 3 stepping light (or dark) on Origin if it's Induration > Reverberation > Fusion. Also, scythe doesn't have a Fragmentation property? I guess you can use entropy and keep the skillchain going until you hit darkness. I haven't made my stage 3 yet so just curious.
Also, I dunno what the group think on this is because I had a debate once about it. What do we consider steps? The way I think of it is:
Chainbound > WS = 1 step
WS > WS = 2 step
WS > WS > WS = 3 step
etc. etc.
 Asura.Qibble
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 38
By Asura.Qibble 2023-07-30 11:51:06
Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello said: »Being able to 3 step darkness or light with strongest available WS crushes other solo dps options by miles on many jobs.
How are you 3 stepping light (or dark) on Origin if it's Induration > Reverberation > Fusion. Also, scythe doesn't have a Fragmentation property? I guess you can use entropy and keep the skillchain going until you hit darkness. I haven't made my stage 3 yet so just curious.
Answering your own question in your own post
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-07-30 11:53:46
Induration > Reverberation = Frag (which is dumb as ***, and always will be) > Fusion = Light
There's a dozen darkness options
Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 313
By Quetzalcoatl.Tomasello 2023-07-30 12:03:42
Induration > Reverberation = Frag (which is dumb as ***, and always will be) > Fusion = Light
There's a dozen darkness options
Duh lol..... In my head I was reading it as making reverberation.
Got it. Yeah, that's weird.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 678
By Asura.Melliny 2023-07-30 12:28:21
It makes about as much sense as transfixion into scission making distortion. Don’t overthink it.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-07-30 12:34:31
All of the level one properties are shenanegans. That's why it's so difficult. The two's are too. It's all overcomplicated.
It's why no one can skillchain at random without an addon or a wiki page open.
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Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1869
By Phoenix.Iocus 2023-07-30 14:25:12
Additional BIG advantage of Primes is providing the most powerful WSs unique to jobs, which is very impactful for fights with WS wall. Take Xevioso for example. If you use DRG+SAM or DRG+WAR, DRG can use WS much stronger than Impulse Drive and WAR or SAM can use Impulse drive. Not only DRG will do more damage, but they won't WS wall each other. Same for DNC in that fight, you can you Ruthless strike and BRD can use Rudra. By the time a player has a stage 5, or even a stage 4 Prime Weapon, they have most likely already completed Gaol and capped RP. At that point, they aren't fighting Xevioso for any other reason than to help (carry) other players. So, again, the BIG advantage of these weapons comes down to using them on something that you have already crushed, only out of the goodness of your own heart.
Oh yeah, that sounds like most people that are playing this game right now. Cleared V25 no probs, static 6 man with 0 additional friends...
Mind you, that will be more true soon with how much the stage 4 fubar is bleeding subs.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 152
By Asura.Illuminate 2023-07-31 01:07:53
Induration > Reverberation = Frag (which is dumb as ***, and always will be) > Fusion = Light
I know rite!? You'd expect induration and reverberation to make distortion lol And impaction + detonation to make fragmentation.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6
By Asura.Ohthehumanity 2023-07-31 08:37:19
Has anyone confirmed if getting the Uran-Mafran orb from the VR epilogue does anything for sortie?
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By Dodik 2023-08-02 02:21:58
So the nerf is happening. But, Aminon is now stronger at stage4 if you want upgrade drops. Also stage5 upgrade item confirmed to be from Aminon.
Fujito's reply:
Quote: Good day, everyone.
Thank you all for your feedback on my previous post.
Let me first offer a dual apology: first, for failing to provide a sufficient explanation before implementing the system the way we did, and second for causing confusion and disappointment for those of you who were so passionate about upgrading your prime weapons.
Having pored over all of your comments, questions, and concerns, I sat down with the development team and discussed your various opinions and proposals on the following two issues:
The difficulty change is automatic, and thus party members who aren’t looking to upgrade their Prime Weapon to stage 4 are unwillingly roped into a higher difficulty boss.
The lack of notification surrounding the difficulty adjustment before entering Sortie.
The way the system currently works is that ownership of a stage 4 Prime Weapon triggers the change in difficulty. We are going to adjust this system, as we believe it is causing the most consternation amongst all of you.
The difficulty of notorious monsters in Lower Sortie E-H will no longer be increased if someone with a stage 4 Prime Weapon is in the party.
Even if we were to add a difficulty selection toggle for the notorious monsters in Lower Sortie E-H like with the last boss, the last bosses’ toggle would be independent of the individual HMs, so there would be no reason for players to go out of their way to defeat “hard mode” NMs. Simply removing their adjusted behavior is the more sensible option.
* While it would be possible for us to add two different difficulty options, doing so would require all party members to have access to both options, which would make finding the appropriate party members even more different than currently, so we believe that this option is off the table.
We will add an option for players to choose hard/normal mode difficulty when entering the #? boss area in cases where one or more players possess a stage 4 Prime Weapon.
* This option will not display if no stage 4 Prime Weapon bearers are present.
Hard Mode:
Aminon’s behavior will change and he will gain 25% damage reduction
Materials needed to upgrade Prime Weapons will have a chance to drop when he is defeated.
Normal Mode:
Aminon’s behavior will not change.
Materials needed to upgrade Prime Weapons will not drop.
This adjustment is being made with the intent of making it easier for people to form parties based on their objectives, whether it be to earn gallimaufry or to obtain items needed to upgrade Prime Weapons.
The goal is not to make it easier for players to upgrade stage 4 Prime Weapons, so the adjustments to Aminon are intended to keep the difficulty roughly equivalent even though players are no longer required to tackle harder difficulty NMs in Lower Sortie E-H.
Notes:
The difficulty of the Lower Sortie boss is intended as trial for those wishing to upgrade stage 4 Prime Weapons, and once the Prime Weapons have reached their final stage this difficulty adjustment is no longer necessary. The upshot of this is that players looking to upgrade their second and subsequent Prime Weapons will not have to continuously face powered-up versions of bosses, so there is no need to worry about being endlessly locked into hard mode content.
These changes are currently scheduled to go live in the September version update.
By zixxer 2023-08-02 03:36:23
First off, I hope they play-test their prototype changes. That these changes will actually work the way they think it will with the playerbase.
Based on my experience, these guys/(devs) can't even make sure the mobs are showing the correct tp moves in the past ambuscades a few months ago.
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By SimonSes 2023-08-02 03:44:33
could be cool to see hard mode aminon despite some of the recently revealed intended mechanics, first guess is that abs-tp is off the table.
I mean there is already report on that version of Aminon. It's gonna be the same, but with 25% added DT, to make it slightly longer fight in exchange for getting KI on easier bosses.
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By zixxer 2023-08-02 04:01:58
First off, I hope they play-test their prototype changes. That these changes will actually work the way they think it will with the playerbase.
Based on my experience, these guys/(devs) can't even make sure the mobs are showing the correct tp moves in the past ambuscades a few months ago.
isnt that a battlemod/windower thing and not an ffxi thing?
You're absolutely right. My mistake.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2023-08-02 05:27:32
This is a amicable solution. Hopefully meso is 100% from turbo aminon but otherwise good changes. Being able to choose between normal and hard is nice.
 Carbuncle.ElvaanmoqGuildwork Premium
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 239
By Carbuncle.Elvaanmoq 2023-08-02 05:38:15
These news look positive, let's hope that's the case!
 Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5109
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-08-02 05:48:38
Quote: Even if we were to add a difficulty selection toggle for the notorious monsters in Lower Sortie E-H like with the last boss, the last bosses’ toggle would be independent of the individual HMs, so there would be no reason for players to go out of their way to defeat “hard mode” NMs. Simply removing their adjusted behavior is the more sensible option.
Amazing how increasing Galli by 50% or forcing a +1 case or anything of that sort absolutely did not cross their minds at all. The concept of increasing the reward for a greatly increased difficulty never crossed their mind.
Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1869
By Phoenix.Iocus 2023-08-02 06:16:15
Nah man. They just want us to grind at the rate they said we needed to for P/L metrics. They just need to retain us, not entertain us.
By Asura.Disclai 2023-08-02 06:28:26
Shockingly reasonable.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Hopefully meso is 100% from turbo aminon but otherwise good changes.
He straight-up says it's not 100%. It has "a chance" to drop.
Stage 5 is such a long grind and the number of meso required isn't high, so as long as the drop rate isn't super low it shouldn't matter much.
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Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1869
By Phoenix.Iocus 2023-08-02 06:29:56
In before THF becomes required party member for Aminion Hard
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By Dodik 2023-08-02 07:06:25
He straight-up says it's not 100%. It has "a chance" to drop.
100% chance is a chance to drop. Not likely, just saying.
By Asura.Disclai 2023-08-02 07:11:12
100% chance is a chance to drop. Not likely, just saying.
Technically, sure. But we both know that "a chance to drop" isn't the verbiage used when something is guaranteed.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1043
By Asura.Iamaman 2023-08-02 07:23:52
Quote: Even if we were to add a difficulty selection toggle for the notorious monsters in Lower Sortie E-H like with the last boss, the last bosses’ toggle would be independent of the individual HMs, so there would be no reason for players to go out of their way to defeat “hard mode” NMs. Simply removing their adjusted behavior is the more sensible option.
Amazing how increasing Galli by 50% or forcing a +1 case or anything of that sort absolutely did not cross their minds at all. The concept of increasing the reward for a greatly increased difficulty never crossed their mind.
Increasing galli reward would speed the process up. Can’t be having that!
EDIT: Most of the information in this thread is now outdated, as the EFGH boss enrages have been removed and Aminon is now a toggle. I'm leaving it up so people can see what happened, though.
So, I posted yesterday in the Sortie main thread about how some of the basement bosses had changed AI after acquiring a Stage 4 Prime Weapon. We went in again tonight to test the rest of them, and...well...this is bad. It's bad enough that I felt it justified its own thread so more people can see it.
TL;DR Do not upgrade your Stage 4 Prime Weapon until you are finished with acquiring Gallimaufry, or be prepared to tank the Galli rates for you and any group you join as soon as you get it.
First off, a few commonalities - despite the basement bosses getting harder, the rewards are completely unchanged. 10k Gallimaufry per boss, no guaranteed Case+1, no Mesosiderite (this is probably luck based). Second, actually equipping the Prime Weapon is irrelevant, the bosses are harder if anyone has the Stage 4 anywhere in their inventory. It might be the case that it only looks at the person entering Sortie to determine the AI (both times our party leader had a Stage 4), but that's unlikely. Finally, the base stats of each enemy seem unchanged, it's only their AI that gets altered.
Now, on to the specific bosses. We have recordings of all of the new enrage mechanics, in case anyone's skeptical about all of this. There may be other changes, but these are the ones we've seen. This is all mage strategy, too, so YMMV if you use melee strategy.
EDIT 7/15: Updated information on new mechanics based on more runs.
Dhartok - Uses Cesspool at somewhere between 50-65% HP. No other changes.
Gartell - Enters double hands mode at 65~66% and 30~33% HP, and stays in it for about 3 minutes each time. Bind works from a RDM fairly easily in this mode, but all damage gets tanked and his damage output skyrockets, so it's basically a forced staring contest eating your time while waiting. Gravity seems to work once, then resists badly. We don't know how to break double hands mode other than waiting.
Triboulex - Uses Setting the Stage at around 75% HP, and more times at lower %s. You can still avoid Setting the Stage going off by kiting him. There might be a Skillchain mechanic that also triggers it based off of previous runs, but it's consistently gone off at 75% HP so save yourself the trouble and just Gravity kite him.
Aita - Uses Vivisection at around 65~66% HP, and again at around 32~33% HP. These uses reset the 3 minute timer. There seems to be a mechanic to lower its damage based on repeatedly hitting him with the element he is weak to, but we don't fully understand it yet.
And last, and certainly worst...
Aminon - 10 seconds after using Bane of Tartarus, Aminon will now instantly use Incessant Void again, regardless of TP. After upgrading to Stage 4, the Absorb-TP strategy is IMPOSSIBLE. Anyone who tried to fight this thing pre-Absorb strategy knows that it's an absolute disaster of a fight, so Aminon basically doesn't exist for our group anymore.
I'm honestly speechless. The fact that the bosses are this much worse for bullshit reasons, there's seemingly no way to opt out of it after upgrading a weapon, there are no extra rewards beyond a worthless -drite we haven't even seen yet, and there was ZERO indication that this would happen prior to upgrading?! There wasn't even a chat message or any visual indication the bosses are buffed until our group got blindsided by Vivisection at 70%!
The worst part, though? Not everyone in our group even HAS a Stage 4 Prime Weapon! So, unless it only counts the person who enters the group (which, in that case...why?!), that means that if you upgrade to Stage 4, you're destroying the Gallimaufry potential of ANY group you join! Truly, this is one of the most severe case of punishing the player for upgrading an item I've ever seen.
That's why I'm making this a separate topic I guess - making sure as many people see this as possible. Our group was the first to upgrade to Stage 4, and we're paying the price for it now. Spread the word: either keep your Prime Weapons at Stage 3 (and thus be unable to use their WS outside of Sortie), or tank your Gallimaufry rate. What a fun choice that is......
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