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Gaol: Unplayable content because of lag
By RadialArcana 2021-02-15 11:59:24
Threshold is the old WoE.
Walk of Echoes p1 is zone 1 of Odyssey
Walk of Echoes p2 is a duplicate of zone 1 that is considered a different zone, so has a separate search for it. If it sends you to 2, 1 is full (of that option)
Each zone is a huge map, all parts of Odysey plays out on that map, it just ports you to different parts of it based on your choice of entry.
So thieves soloing boxes are in the same zone as people doing Gaol and also people doing Lillith are too.
So while you're busy fighting Goal NMs there is someone having a life and death battle with Lillith not far away from you (out of sh distance ofc)
 Ragnarok.Kenshi
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 123
By Ragnarok.Kenshi 2021-02-15 12:51:41
I noticed that yoran-Oran is not in my trust list while in sheol gaol, are all the ppl with lag in the yoran-oran unity?
 Asura.Hya
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 329
By Asura.Hya 2021-02-15 12:59:46
I noticed that yoran-Oran is not in my trust list while in sheol gaol, are all the ppl with lag in the yoran-oran unity? Unity trusts as a whole are disabled in Gaol, for whatever reason.
 Asura.Sechs
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10350
By Asura.Sechs 2021-02-15 13:05:23
Threshold is the old WoE.
Walk of Echoes p1 is zone 1 of Odyssey
Walk of Echoes p2 is a duplicate of zone 1 that is considered a different zone, so has a separate search for it. If it sends you to 2, 1 is full (of that option)
Each zone is a huge map, all parts of Odysey plays out on that map, it just ports you to different parts of it based on your choice of entry.
So thieves soloing boxes are in the same zone as people doing Gaol and also people doing Lillith are too.
So while you're busy fighting Goal NMs there is someone having a life and death battle with Lillith not far away from you (out of sh distance ofc) This doesn't explain the extreme lag of Gaol (we're talking about 10+ seconds delay after each action, models not loading on screen, monster being still at 71% on your screen when it's dead, over 5 mins of wait to load inventory2 etc), but it could explain why Lilith's BC area and Odyssey in general are laggier than most other zones.
By Torzak 2021-02-15 13:46:25
It's already been stated in this thread both by myself and another that we don't have the same lag issue while fighting Lilith as we do when trying to do Gaol content.
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-02-15 13:56:38
It's exactely what I said, Torzak.
By Torzak 2021-02-15 14:36:22
I was stating that it's already been mentioned pages back.
By SimonSes 2021-02-15 18:29:39
I generally dont lag at all in FFXI, not even in Odyssey A,B,C (but I tribox them, havent tried with actual full party). The only instances where I lag is Odyssey Gaol, 18man DynamisD (no lag at all 3 boxing) and Mireu with 100+ ppl fighting it.
 Bismarck.Nyaarun
Server: Bismarck
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By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2021-02-15 19:08:55
I have nearly all trusts unlocked, and i have not gotten lag thus far in the few bosses ive killed in Gaol. So its more than just number of trusts.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
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By Asura.Lioncourt 2021-02-16 05:45:04
This might be far fetched but could someone try to summon/desummon all their available trusts and see if anything changes when they aren't available anymore?
 Asura.Wotasu
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 346
By Asura.Wotasu 2021-02-16 05:58:37
This might be far fetched but could someone try to summon/desummon all their available trusts and see if anything changes when they aren't available anymore? Cant Summon trusts in the prechamber sadly so "cheap" test is out c.c
 Valefor.Maurauc
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 126
By Valefor.Maurauc 2021-02-16 06:41:05
Number of spells total? If they're re-sending the whole spell list on every action, people with multiple jobs available might end up lagging more than others - could explain the mains lagging more than alts?
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-02-16 11:48:26
I generally dont lag at all in FFXI, not even in Odyssey A,B,C (but I tribox them, havent tried with actual full party). The only instances where I lag is Odyssey Gaol, 18man DynamisD (no lag at all 3 boxing) and Mireu with 100+ ppl fighting it.
It feels extremely random. I had worse lag going in solo for an Atonement 1 clear/unlock than I did going in with a full party for an Atonement 2 NM. Well, except for one hilarious fight my group had on the T2 Cracklaw where ALL 6 of our cameras separated from our characters, basically giving us a fixed camera movie view of the battle, even when engaged.
I haven't experienced any lag, solo or party, in A/B/C.
Leviathan.Isiolia
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 485
By Leviathan.Isiolia 2021-02-16 12:22:22
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »I haven't experienced any lag, solo or party, in A/B/C.
I find A/B/C to have a little lag, similar to typical Dyna-D. Nothing compared to Gaol though, which was easily 5-10 seconds behind actions.
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Shiva.Flowen
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 526
By Shiva.Flowen 2021-02-16 12:34:25
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »I generally dont lag at all in FFXI, not even in Odyssey A,B,C (but I tribox them, havent tried with actual full party). The only instances where I lag is Odyssey Gaol, 18man DynamisD (no lag at all 3 boxing) and Mireu with 100+ ppl fighting it.
It feels extremely random. I had worse lag going in solo for an Atonement 1 clear/unlock than I did going in with a full party for an Atonement 2 NM. Well, except for one hilarious fight my group had on the T2 Cracklaw where ALL 6 of our cameras separated from our characters, basically giving us a fixed camera movie view of the battle, even when engaged.
I haven't experienced any lag, solo or party, in A/B/C.
This lol. We did 3 nms in atonement 1 a few weeks back and had almost no lag. Then I cleared the 4th nm solo and it was bad.. I also had the fixed camera issue (like resident evil games style) but luckily it was in the lobby for me.
By Torzak 2021-02-16 14:19:58
Number of spells total? If they're re-sending the whole spell list on every action, people with multiple jobs available might end up lagging more than others - could explain the mains lagging more than alts?
This guy from the previous page has quite a few spells judging by jobs and equip, and he says no lag.
Hi Baniak, although I don't live in Japan, I experience zero lag in all Odyssey instances,
Idk how things are working exactly from server to client and every thing between as it relates to latency and packet resends and the additional firestorm that may cause for some, but we seem to point fingers at excessive packets and I think we can all agree that 30 packets per second of either RP Update information or Spell List Availability Update information is too much, and assuming that is what is happening or is close to what is happening, hopefully they can figure out a fix.
PS2 limitations, PS2 Dev Kits, Old game largely designed for dial up with 30 fps and so many components of the game seemingly tied to the fps, I'm curious who would be mad if RP never updated live in either Dynamis or Odyssey after a fix? I wouldn't.
Can anyone think of technical reasons for or against a fix? I mean, with everything we as a community think we know about how the game works?
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 3753
By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2021-02-16 14:22:39
If you build a house on sand, it takes a different structure to hold up subsequent floors than a house build on a true foundation needs. But no matter the structure, its always still built on sand, and that truth eventually can't be avoided.
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By Torzak 2021-02-16 14:36:15
If I was looking at the code, I think I'd be pulling up the code for how the display of Attack & Defense in the Equip Menu works. Cause that sure doesn't update 30x a second and is still mostly functional.
By Pantafernando 2021-02-16 14:38:38
From a programming standpoint, if your code isnt well organizated, it starts deprecating over time due new introductions.
And over decades, too many changes happened so its not a wonder things becomes so inefficient, too many unexpected bugs, limitations.
Im not sure about dyna D or gaols lag as im not a currently active, but Mireu, for example, the problem there was that the client just wasnt receiving updates fast enough. Even the mob update wasnt being received thats why it was taking like 10 mins to mireu appears. During that time, the field was like a couple of char standing there looking to nothing.
But its comprehensive to think imagine 50 players sending action, 50x trusts sending another action, and SE computer having to process all those, grabbing a result, calculate the aftermath of those effects then returning to each of those 50 players.
To prevent lags probably either SE would need to clean up the code, making it more efficiently, or improve their infrastructure.
Asura.Khory
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6
By Asura.Khory 2021-02-19 08:12:36
I am getting my gael clears, but lag makes it pretty much unplayable.
I see anything from 6 to 10s of lag for any actions. It just works because +0 mobs are very weak.
Can't think about playing a tank or a healer there either. So its just a buffer or a DD.
Asura.Wotasu
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 346
By Asura.Wotasu 2021-02-19 08:22:42
I am getting my gael clears, but lag makes it pretty much unplayable.
I see anything from 6 to 10s of lag for any actions. It just works because +0 mobs are very weak.
Can't think about playing a tank or a healer there either. So its just a buffer or a DD. I just pop all JA for hate and hope it dies with 0 Fetters c.c and Ive only done Veng0 for gear. Dissapointed about zero response from SE about it :/
I can hear on dsicord when I lose hate 5sec b4 screen tells me so or if ppl dies.
By RadialArcana 2021-02-19 09:02:55
The developers of FFXI (I don't know if this is a JP thing or just a FFXI thing) are not going to communicate anything on this even if they are addressing it right now.
The first we will be told is when there are patch notes stating "an issue with Gaol has been fixed".
They won't address it, they won't say they are working on it, they won't even say if they fixed it directly. You'll just get a small vague note on the patch notes.
Asura.Botosi
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 375
By Asura.Botosi 2021-02-19 10:00:30
The most interesting thing I noticed about Gaol while quad boxing is:
I’d input a command on 1 character and see that action instantly take effect on the other 3 characters’ screens, but a 4-5 second lag on the character I actually input the command on.
I find that quite interesting. As if there’s an input delay in showing YOUR OWN actions and not others.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3185
By Asura.Geriond 2021-02-19 20:24:28
So...
As an experiment, I swapped my unity from Sylvie (~700 people) to Invincible Shield (~30 people).
Normally I nearly always have 4-6 sec delays in Gaol. After swapping, in three runs in a row I had severely reduced (0-1 sec) lag.
Fluke? Maybe, maybe not. If it's not a fluke, it remains to be seen if it's because I don't have access to my unity trust yet (because I just swapped), or because I picked a unity that is basically empty.
Edit: five runs in a row with minimal lag.
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Asura.Wotasu
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 346
By Asura.Wotasu 2021-02-19 23:36:18
Still don't explain my main(sylvie) and alts(apu/yoran) 5sec latency difference. Or just the fact that no unity trust is available for the spell packet to look for is the winner.
Asura.Sechs
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10350
By Asura.Sechs 2021-02-20 07:46:38
Did we ever reach a conclusion on what the possible causes could be that generate the excessive lag of Sheol Gaol?
I seem to remind some tests concerning number of trusts unlocked? Was that ever confirmed or debunked?
Adding my personal experience to the list:
I entered Sheol Gaol so far only 13 times.
The lag has always been insane. My inventory loads in more than 3 minutes and the other repositories never finish to load, they get stuck on loading (the icon keeps turning) and never stops.
Because of that I can't access temporary items to exit and I need to rely on Warp and related.
Whenever I perform an action there are 10-15 seconds of delay before I see it happening on screen.
Most of the actions are just delayed (as described above), some simply do not happen. You need to wait regardless to confirm wether or not your action got cancelled or simply "delayed".
I see people in the wrong position. Like DDs or Tanks fighting from 40+ yalms away from where they really are. Likewise monster targets sometimes seem to "teleport" around the screen if they move.
Last but not least, the HP bars do not update in time. Quite often it happens to me that I see the bar at like 70% but the monster is dead.
Strangely enough the buffs list from Partybuffs addon seems to be accurate and not delayed at all.
Chat messages typed in say, party, linkshell or tell seem to not suffer from the delay either.
Are these 2 things included in a different category of packets?
Meaning only some types of packets are under the influence of this insane lag, but not all of them?
As far as spells and trusts are concerned, I have unlocked every single spell in game for every job and every single mount and trust available.
Asura.Sechs
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10350
By Asura.Sechs 2021-02-20 07:48:28
Oh, since some of my ls buddies experienced different types of lag each time they entered, I wanted to say that for me in those 13 times I entered Gaol, things were always identical.
Not a single minimal difference. The things I described above happened on each and every one of the 13 times I entered Gaol.
By Solonuke 2021-02-20 08:45:18
Incoming packets from both Odyssey and Dynamis seems to ve mostly 0x075, a packet which seems to hold onto the timer/progression data, RP and possibly other stuff. Blocking the packet would hinder the neck/weapon RP display to update, you'd still get RP though.
Asura.Sechs
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10350
By Asura.Sechs 2021-02-20 11:38:05
Would blocking that packet make the lag better, client-side?
Still, Sheol Gaol clearly has other aspects at play. The kind of lag you experience there is not the "normal" super laggy + packetloss you see in Divergence zone, it's something else.
The RP problem might affect both, I can't say, but if that's the case then it means Gaol also has additional stuff that's not active in Divergence.
So gameplay lag has become a big issue for most of the players in my circle, and it seems to be somehow just accepted and not challenged much. Whether this is because in Japan the effects are not as bad or even noticeable we don't know.
Lag can be caused by a lot of things, but I think it's important here to separate a few major types.
1. Lag caused by your gaming setup, poor performance PC or internet connection.
2. Lag caused by congestion at the SE end, exacerbated by your distance from the servers.
Ever since D-Dyna introduced the ranking system where you had the on-screen counter for your rank items, it seems SE have reached a server side limit where lag is unavoidable even on the fastest internet and PC.
You can just about live with it in d-dyna but it kills the fun of being able to react and play well like we've learned to do in older content areas (stunning a TP moves, re-casting utsusemi, curing someone about to die etc).
Then Odyssey came out and right from the get-go similar lag exists in the Sheol A, B and C areas. A good test of lag is to do an emote to another player and see how long it takes to show in the log. D-Dyna and Sheol seem to be 1-2s extra lag than normal, but sometimes even worse for certain players.
Now we have Gaol and the lag has gone off the charts. We enter with 6 players and some like myself can get lucky and see a 1-2s lag only in the waiting area, while others see 6s lag for any action, and inventory doesn't load fully even after 3 minutes of waiting.
I was most surprised to see it can even be drastically different for 2 chars in the same household. I run my main on an AMD 5950 processor and AMD 6800XT GPU (yes I paid through the teeth for that). My 2nd char is on a 1950x threadripper and Titan X maxwell GPU (no slouch) and yet this char consistently gets the 6s lag in Gaol. Both chars on the same 350Mb fibre internet (Virgin in the UK).
A few in our LS have pretty much done everything we want to do in this game, beaten the master trials, got all the REMAs we need and R15d them, and we've been pinning our hopes on new content to keep our favourite pastime going.
Gaol seems really interesting and challenging, exactly what we need right now, but we can't play it. We go in and attempt to guess when to chuck out a cure or erase, people jump about all over the place due to update lag, it's just not possible to do anything but put your best gear on and luck your way through a win.
I read today the accepted bug report listed here:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/57736-Abnormal-connection-behavior-within-Odyssey-battle-content-Sheol-Gaol
Which brings up the capped network bandwidth size which is getting trounced inside Goal areas. I hadn't even considered SE might be trying to push more data than their own cap allows since I would have expected that to affect JP players the same way, but maybe it doesn't somehow.
Anyway, if SE do not address this and soon (including fixing the extra lag in d-dyna and sheol) then I think it will force me to finally retire from the game, as it has now become a key skill to predict actions ahead of lag (anyone ever run into a d-dyna statue cos it hadn't loaded yet?).
I don't see a lot of talk about this issue outside of the game so wanted to just dump all my moans here about it now and see what others think. Also other than bombard the official forums with new bug reports (since you can't reply to existing ones to support them, only up-vote), how can we get SE to wake up to it?
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