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Gaol: Unplayable content because of lag
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3185
By Asura.Geriond 2021-02-13 17:41:37
The problem is, not everyone gets this lag so it can't be as simple as a bad mechanic. Something is going wrong for some people. I'm pretty sure that everyone does get the lag, but it doesn't appear 100% of the time at the same strength. You can go 5 runs in a row with minimal delay if you're really lucky, or 5 runs with 6 second delay, or anything in between.
That just means there's an additional factor that can make the severity vary, likely one that is independent of the person themself. It could be something like the total number of players in Gaol at the same time, how many total trusts are available to all players that are currently in Gaol, or if the instance of Gaol you're in was on the server that someone spilled coffee on yesterday, or even a combination of factors.
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 Shiva.Thorny
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3144
By Shiva.Thorny 2021-02-13 18:06:23
Probably some sort of bug that causes them to refresh trusts infinitely(or at least significantly more frequently), when in normal conditions it would only be refreshed when a new trust is locked out.
Server stuck in infinite loop > everything gets bogged down > other packets can't make it out the queue. Still comes down to getting SE to fix it, but maybe the info will help them do so in a more timely manner.
By Torzak 2021-02-13 19:10:04
I wondered about if the server is constantly telling the client an updated list of what jobs & trusts are locked out.
I noticed after a run most of the trusts I used for the fight were all at the bottom of the list. Which was frustrating because I manually organize my trusts for a reason.
Lakshmi.Darkdoom
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 158
By Lakshmi.Darkdoom 2021-02-13 19:40:23
The game gives you a list of trusts that differs from what you actually have in odyssey gaol, might be somethin to that.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-02-13 19:45:49
The game gives you a list of trusts that differs from what you actually have in odyssey gaol, might be somethin to that.
It just gives you every trust your group has access to. They are shared among each other, minus UCs
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2021-02-13 19:47:18
But why though, only really noticeable with ygnas
It's a weird thing to do. If it's some, well we want people to have access to trusts they dont have... stop *** making the trusts artificially rare. There's no reason Shantotto II/Qultada/KoH are only available twice a year for example. And Moogle/Fablinix/Aldo/Mumor once a year.
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Leviathan.Draugo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2021-02-13 21:24:41
Welp, this week s my "laymen casual play d off and on since 6os after NA launch and I'm a bit inevrated also planning to hop back on again" opinion, late happens,the more popular the instance the lagy'er it can be, I'm impressed though at how well a popular and/or easier ambu's can keep up, but with a grain of salt, 6 man, vs 18 can be a whole different can of worms I would assume.
Asura.Hya
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 329
By Asura.Hya 2021-02-13 21:30:01
Welp, this week s my "laymen casual play d off and on since 6os after NA launch and I'm a bit inevrated also planning to hop back on again" opinion, late happens,the more popular the instance the lagy'er it can be, I'm impressed though at how well a popular and/or easier ambu's can keep up, but with a grain of salt, 6 man, vs 18 can be a whole different can of worms I would assume. There can be no line for Gaol entry and the lag still presents itself. Smaller servers report the same issue as Asura. You're drunk, drink some water and go to bed.
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By yarnox 2021-02-13 21:34:03
Semi related:
I've been doing Odyssey everyday over 3-4 chars for I guess close to a year.
Recently, coinciding with Gaol, I'll open a chest in A or B, but it just disappears... no message no drops in log. That's an example of packet loss? Also, sometimes log will only show 2 drops.
That's broke right...
By Thunderjet 2021-02-13 23:29:51
anyone thinking on building R15 Bravura for all this new Double attack damage Stacking?
By SimonSes 2021-02-14 03:58:08
anyone thinking on building R15 Bravura for all this new Double attack damage Stacking?
Bravura actually loses even more when they added DA damage+ from different sources, since now DA damage on bravura has higher diminishing returns kicking it. Ukonvasara/Farsha on the other hand are gaining, because they got higher DA damage from gear now, while their AM3 proc being unique multiplier doesnt suffer at all.
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 Phoenix.Amarok
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 63
By Phoenix.Amarok 2021-02-14 10:57:07
I tried T3 just now, Camera got locked at spawn point which was fun since I was tank. Then latency fk us up royaly even more.
As is, no new equip for me and my group until this is fixed :/
This is something one of our party gets a lot. It happens when people start AoE buffing as soon as they warp past the moogle, and one of our guys who has the 6s lag gets locked in a black screen and has to log and come back. So we try to wait 5s or so after we see everyone pop before buffing.
By SimonSes 2021-02-14 13:06:28
Question to Thorny, is it possible that if I get ping 350+, which would be more than time between packets, then SE server would try to send me twice as much data trying to keep up?
Leviathan.Draugo
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2775
By Leviathan.Draugo 2021-02-14 18:06:20
Welp, this week s my "laymen casual play d off and on since 6os after NA launch and I'm a bit inevrated also planning to hop back on again" opinion, late happens,the more popular the instance the lagy'er it can be, I'm impressed though at how well a popular and/or easier ambu's can keep up, but with a grain of salt, 6 man, vs 18 can be a whole different can of worms I would assume. There can be no line for Gaol entry and the lag still presents itself. Smaller servers report the same issue as Asura. You're drunk, drink some water and go to bed. No u!
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Asura.Arico
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 535
By Asura.Arico 2021-02-14 22:42:11
Hai '_'/
I've been having the same lag issues in Gaol as a lot of people here it seems. After waiting for a month, hoping SE would do something I decided to investigate myself.
I wrote a simple addon that counts how often each type of packet is sent to the client. And I did notice that a certain packet is sent an awful lot of times.
Packet 170 seems to be the spell list, as seen in this packet dump.
Now why would SE send us the spell list over and over? Especially to a samurai, which was the job I used during testing. I'm just guessing here, but they do have that feature in Gaol where a trust you used disappears from the list. And a SAM does have trusts, which count as spells. Now maybe they were so smart that they update the list over and over instead of only sending it when something actually changes.
Another interesting observation was that when you open the boss selection menu in the Gaol lobby, the lag disappears and gear/inventory loads fast. You can also see that the R count at the top right of the screen drops to 300ish from the usual 3000 cap you get in Gaol. And I didn't count any packet 170s while in the menu. Coincidence? I think not.
To be sure this isn't just normal behavior I ran a count inside Ambuscade and never got the 170 packet. Upon zoning it was sent a few times, which would be expected to load the spell list at that point.
So does anyone have a smart idea how to send this info to SE without getting a ban? Cause admitting to use addons is a big no-no to them.
Hmm well if this is the case then this addon should fix that.
I haven't tested it as I don't get lag, but who knows. Won't hurt... probably...
Now... the question as to why some people get super lagged out by it and others don't makes no sense, but who knows. I'd love for someone to try it and tell me if it works :)
**edit** went in an tested. Yeah, it's SPAMMING the spell list packet. When I turned packetviewer off it took a good 30 seconds for packet viewer to just catch up on the amount of packets that were coming in.
This does seem to block them, and it dropped my receive a fair bit. I don't get lag in the zone so I can't tell if it actually helps.
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By Torzak 2021-02-14 23:55:14
The Spell List packet as you're calling it includes Trusts? Does your addon prevent the update to the Trust availability as you're progressing through a fight? Wouldn't the server just tell you no if you tried to accidentally call an already used Trust a 2nd time?
Asura.Arico
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 535
By Asura.Arico 2021-02-15 00:02:47
The Spell List packet as you're calling it includes Trusts? Does your addon prevent the update to the Trust availability as you're progressing through a fight? Wouldn't the server just tell you no if you tried to accidentally call an already used Trust a 2nd time?
Yes, it would also block it updating your trust list. If you tried to summon a trust you don't have access to the server will probably kick an error.
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By Torzak 2021-02-15 00:05:31
I'll let someone else be the guinea pig and tell us how amazing it worked, but it sounds like a godsend until SE fixes it proper.
Asura.Arico
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 535
By Asura.Arico 2021-02-15 00:20:17
Updated it to allow update on job change and when you get kicked out(which hopefully will allow you to update your trust list)
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By Ruaumoko 2021-02-15 00:58:58
Makes me wonder if getting access to all trusts you don't actually have is a bug, or if is in some way connected to the problem.
Might be spamming you with packets because it detects you have trusts in your list you usually don't have.
Asura.Arico
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 535
By Asura.Arico 2021-02-15 01:03:33
Might be spamming you with packets because it detects you have trusts in your list you usually don't have.
Eh. The client doesn't send back the spell list to the server for it to be like "No, that's not right."
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3185
By Asura.Geriond 2021-02-15 01:04:50
Is there any risk of SE being able to tell that this addon is messing with packet behavior?
Asura.Arico
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 535
By Asura.Arico 2021-02-15 01:14:23
Is there any risk of SE being able to tell that this addon is messing with packet behavior?
No.
The only feedback I've gotten has been:
"I still get lag but it's A LOT better."
Could be a placebo, could be legit. Who knows. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-02-15 01:15:17
I used it and did not notice any difference. Still 5 second delay.
Asura.Arico
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 535
By Asura.Arico 2021-02-15 01:26:44
I used it and did not notice any difference. Still 5 second delay. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 Ragnarok.Tylas
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 59
By Ragnarok.Tylas 2021-02-15 03:27:58
Could be a placebo, could be legit. Who knows. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm afraid it's placebo, I have tried this very same approach of blocking the packet. However it seems the point where windower addons can intercept packets is already too late and you get lag either way.
I really cannot tell why it does not affect all players, but in my EU LS it is pretty much everyone. Seems like the closer to live to the servers, the less of a problem it is. Would also explain why SE never noticed it, as they sit on top of the servers.
I can only speculate that it is somehow related to their bandwidth cap (R3000), and maybe the further you are from the servers the more packets get lost, need to be re-sent and at some point you hit the bandwidth cap on the server side.
Either way, there is no point sending you the spell list more than 100 times a second without any changes. This is just lazy programming.
Edit: I have tested normal Ody instances as well, they do lag but it is very much playable (1-2sec delay at most). Here a different packet 117 is spammed 30 times a second, which is documented as "unity instance start". I could not parse the packet either, so I assume they recycled that packet ID for some new mechanic in Ody, maybe related to mog segments or something. And I would bet I could observe the same in DynaD which has been lagging since they added the RP system a few years ago. I definitely remember running DynaD before RP without any lag whatsoever.
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By Torzak 2021-02-15 03:58:15
Dear SE,
Do not send us RP update packets or Spell List update packets 30x a second. That's bonkers.
Thanks
Asura.Arico
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 535
By Asura.Arico 2021-02-15 04:18:04
Edit: I have tested normal Ody instances as well, they do lag but it is very much playable (1-2sec delay at most). Here a different packet 117 is spammed 30 times a second, which is documented as "unity instance start". I could not parse the packet either, so I assume they recycled that packet ID for some new mechanic in Ody, maybe related to mog segments or something. And I would bet I could observe the same in DynaD which has been lagging since they added the RP system a few years ago. I definitely remember running DynaD before RP without any lag whatsoever.
Odd. 0x075(117) is also used in Gaes Fete, and I think maybe also SR(?) I'm getting a crazy error when I try to track it in Odyssey though.
By RadialArcana 2021-02-15 04:55:51
To people that lag in this, do you have the same lag in the base 3 sheol areas or is this specific to gaol?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 70
By Asura.Akivatoo 2021-02-15 05:18:52
Same issue for me, i recorded video of the game witout any Windower/Ashita and the result is pathetic :
YouTube Video Placeholder
(3 sheol areas are ok for me)
SE need to fix that.
I have a European account, I am French, and I play from France with 1GB optical fiber connection and overkill PC.
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So gameplay lag has become a big issue for most of the players in my circle, and it seems to be somehow just accepted and not challenged much. Whether this is because in Japan the effects are not as bad or even noticeable we don't know.
Lag can be caused by a lot of things, but I think it's important here to separate a few major types.
1. Lag caused by your gaming setup, poor performance PC or internet connection.
2. Lag caused by congestion at the SE end, exacerbated by your distance from the servers.
Ever since D-Dyna introduced the ranking system where you had the on-screen counter for your rank items, it seems SE have reached a server side limit where lag is unavoidable even on the fastest internet and PC.
You can just about live with it in d-dyna but it kills the fun of being able to react and play well like we've learned to do in older content areas (stunning a TP moves, re-casting utsusemi, curing someone about to die etc).
Then Odyssey came out and right from the get-go similar lag exists in the Sheol A, B and C areas. A good test of lag is to do an emote to another player and see how long it takes to show in the log. D-Dyna and Sheol seem to be 1-2s extra lag than normal, but sometimes even worse for certain players.
Now we have Gaol and the lag has gone off the charts. We enter with 6 players and some like myself can get lucky and see a 1-2s lag only in the waiting area, while others see 6s lag for any action, and inventory doesn't load fully even after 3 minutes of waiting.
I was most surprised to see it can even be drastically different for 2 chars in the same household. I run my main on an AMD 5950 processor and AMD 6800XT GPU (yes I paid through the teeth for that). My 2nd char is on a 1950x threadripper and Titan X maxwell GPU (no slouch) and yet this char consistently gets the 6s lag in Gaol. Both chars on the same 350Mb fibre internet (Virgin in the UK).
A few in our LS have pretty much done everything we want to do in this game, beaten the master trials, got all the REMAs we need and R15d them, and we've been pinning our hopes on new content to keep our favourite pastime going.
Gaol seems really interesting and challenging, exactly what we need right now, but we can't play it. We go in and attempt to guess when to chuck out a cure or erase, people jump about all over the place due to update lag, it's just not possible to do anything but put your best gear on and luck your way through a win.
I read today the accepted bug report listed here:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/57736-Abnormal-connection-behavior-within-Odyssey-battle-content-Sheol-Gaol
Which brings up the capped network bandwidth size which is getting trounced inside Goal areas. I hadn't even considered SE might be trying to push more data than their own cap allows since I would have expected that to affect JP players the same way, but maybe it doesn't somehow.
Anyway, if SE do not address this and soon (including fixing the extra lag in d-dyna and sheol) then I think it will force me to finally retire from the game, as it has now become a key skill to predict actions ahead of lag (anyone ever run into a d-dyna statue cos it hadn't loaded yet?).
I don't see a lot of talk about this issue outside of the game so wanted to just dump all my moans here about it now and see what others think. Also other than bombard the official forums with new bug reports (since you can't reply to existing ones to support them, only up-vote), how can we get SE to wake up to it?
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