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Make Paladin Great Again
By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-06-01 05:17:25
Just following up on this idea. There doesn't seem to be a hidden bonus of any sort that I can find on 20/20 JP Enlight II. Getting the expected +140 acc at 560 skill and 20/20 JP. No increase in atk. Or anything else easily observable. Not surprising, but was worth checking for. Thanks for checking anyway.
Quote: Double checked and [Endark JP category] is infact only +20 Accuracy. Mind you... this was back when people were still screaming "Nerf BLU" because Two-Handers (ie WAR+DRK) had really horrible accuracy and that +20 felt like a lifesaver. Ahhh... 2013~2016. What a long time ago...
By Shichishito 2019-06-01 17:21:38
page 6, is PLD great already?
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-06-02 10:32:21
I'm bored, and enjoy talking about reasonable ways/methods the developers could improve on a job. Even though I know they never will... It's cathartic.
By Shichishito 2019-06-02 13:19:42
I'm bored, and enjoy talking about reasonable ways/methods the developers could improve on a job. Even though I know they never will... It's cathartic.
ikr, a lot of times its better than playing the game. doesn't even cost subscription fees.
By Ruaumoko 2019-06-02 18:02:31
To me, PLD needs any of these things to make it competitive.
Shield Mastery needs to have another effect added to it which increases CE/VE with each successful Shield block, sort of like a Ninja's Issekigan.
Shield Bash's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 1:00.
Divine Emblem's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 3:00.
Flash II, and make it AoE.
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 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-06-02 18:05:18
None of that really accomplishes anything, all nice things but doesn't fix anything
Now if, every time you shield block, everyone else's enmity drops, then you've got an answer.
Shield bash could be your autoattack, accomplishes nothing
The problem isn't really that PLD can't generate enmity, it's that everyone else can, and they just cap faster and faster every update
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By Afania 2019-06-02 23:04:52
None of that really accomplishes anything, all nice things but doesn't fix anything
This. But even if pld gets hate from DD 100% of time, lionheart dps in 6 man pt and gambit in dyna D wave 3 runs are still way too good to pass up. So enmity really isnt the issue here.
Give pld a JA that enhances alliance dps by 50% then we will all kick every run for a pld. But thats a dumb way to fix a tank job obviously. An alternative solution is nerf lionheart and gambit, but I doubt people are happy with that.
Enmity issue isnt THAT huge with magic ws meta, dirge and DD tanking imo.
 Siren.Kyte
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3336
By Siren.Kyte 2019-06-02 23:07:54
Cover already lowers the enmity for the intended target, so further enhancing that ability would accomplish that goal.
By Shichishito 2019-06-02 23:23:55
imho proper hate management is the baseline for any tank. pld needs something beyond just hate management that benefits the group and sets them apart from run.
since run is already strong in dding maybe the balance point could be run = risk/reward, pld = play it safe. dispel is runs weakness so new/extra buffs for pld should probably be avoided.
maybe a new type of flash that drastically reduces macc or att instead of acc for a short duration? maybe some debuff that turns the next aoe attack/debuff into a cure/debuff removal?
what ever pld gets it better be borderline OP cause imho run currently excels in almost everything over pld.
Ifrit.Showmo
Server: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 173
By Ifrit.Showmo 2019-06-03 01:12:46
Item level Aegis (and Ochain) would definitely be a step in the right direction for PLD.
I have no problem with RUN being the superior magic defense/status ailment resist tank. But when it exceeds at both magical and physical tanking at the same time, PLD is put in a bad spot (not including the higher DPS/enmity/utility issue).
Just a few things I'll make note of:
-With Ochain, PLD will take an excess amount of magical damage compared to RUN (while having great physical damage reduction, provided attacks come from the front).
-With Aegis, magical damage is reduced to reasonable levels, but shield block rate is floored to 5%-10%. Reprisal & Palisade are is multiplied against your current block rate, so it won't do much to boost the abysmal rate. Meanwhile, a job master RUN easily reaches a 24% parry rate without extra gear, regardless of enemy level (5% base + 19% Inquartata). With Turms Mittens/+1, RUN can recover 75-100 HP for free per parry. With Battuta, I've heard RUN can reach up to a 85%-95% parry rate with the right equipment.
-RUN reaches PDT II -75% while PLD can only reach PDT II -68%. (Burtgang -18%, Epeolatry -25%)
With item level shield skill on Aegis, I feel like that could help PLD close the gap on physical damage reduction, because right now, RUN pretty much excels at both. Of course there are other glaring issues, but let's be honest-- PLD is long overdue for their Relic/Empyrean shield upgrades. We're basically tanking level 130+ content with Lv99 shield skill.
Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3002
By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-06-03 11:51:11
To me, PLD needs any of these things to make it competitive.
Shield Mastery needs to have another effect added to it which increases CE/VE with each successful Shield block, sort of like a Ninja's Issekigan.
Shield Bash's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 1:00.
Divine Emblem's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 3:00.
Flash II, and make it AoE. I want these things. SE, give me these things.
This issue with the block proc based effects, though, is that as soon as you have to equip Aegis you more or less cease to block. I still like the idea though. Aegis just needs a facelift.
maybe a new type of flash that drastically reduces macc or att instead of acc for a short duration? I really like this idea. PLD needs more meva anyway, and this would go a step further and help protect the rest of the party as well. Something PLD is not so great at anymore, despite protecting others being central to the job.
Key points though. It would have to actually land on high level foes. Something flash doesn't even manage at times now. Needs to be potent. And I'd like it to last at least 15~ seconds and be over-writable so you can maintain it with good flash recasts. Reprisal & Palisade are multiplied against your current block rate, Nice post. But a note on Palisade. While reprisal is a mulitpler on the current block rate, Palisade is not.
Palisade is a straight additive increase to your base block rate. I specify base there because Palisade counts as a part of the block rate that reprisal modifies(unlike block+ gear, Damn it) This means that the gains from Palisade are further increased with reprisal active.
Now for numbers. Palisade is a flat +30 to block rate. Base. Add JP and you've got +50. It's huge. Then hit reprisal and you're getting +75 block rate.
Palisade up is the one time Aegis might actually block for ***. But palisade duration is so very short, and the recast is long.
I'm not sure if I'm just forgetting or I still need to test, but I'm not sure how reprisal interacts with the block floor. I suspect that it like has to build from your base rate, even if you're below the floor. If this is the case, then when Aegis is below the floor, you're going to lose some of that palisade bonus while getting above the floor.
By Shichishito 2019-06-03 13:06:22
i think tanks need to be able to take damage from all sources, its a bare minimum just like enmity hate control. i'd even argue, considering how crippling debuffs in this game can be, that tanks should have some way to defend against those - run already has while pld suffers.
Quote: With item level shield skill on Aegis, I feel like that could help PLD close the gap on physical damage reduction, because right now, RUN pretty much excels at both.
imho SE never opened ilvl upgrade paths for shields and instruments because those job rolls are crucial for most setups, the jobs unpopular and/or already pricy to gear.
its ridiculous to see a shield job take more damage than a great sword one but buffing its damage mitigation just to bring it on par with runs shouldn't be the main focus as long as pld doesn't have trouble surviving.
By Nariont 2019-06-03 14:27:55
As stated pld needs some adjustments to make it able to help others survive aswell as itself, run can give everyone a near constant ele dmg reduction, magic shield, epeo can even extend a 1 hit absorb. All pld gets is a magic ss via rampart thats gone as soon as it goes up generally.
Adjusting rampart, making cover able to eat a certain % of dmg from surrounding allie, full dmg when behind the pld, idk what they could do with Sentinel, if anything needs to be done at all.
By cuddlyhamster 2019-06-03 15:57:21
i would like to see pld getting something that makes them immune to hate reset. a job trait that lets them keep a little after a hate reset so mob doesnt run at the whm. or maybe adding it to an existing job ability like palisade or sentinel
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Bahamut.Kirth
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2
By Bahamut.Kirth 2019-09-13 00:36:31
So, as per the OP, is this ever getting posted to the official forums?
Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3002
By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-09-13 02:09:45
I enjoyed re-reading this thread. So thanks for the bump. I need more PLD talk!
Now that SE is finished converting all the merit spells to scrolls, maybe we could have a PLD related update on the horizon? I mean, probably not, but I can hope at least.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-09-13 02:21:12
Going to laugh if SE updates PLD and bases it around the "Two hands" trait and just lets them DD harder than RUN with a 2h sword.
Pandemonium.Zeto
Server: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 368
By Pandemonium.Zeto 2019-09-23 12:56:10
R15 Calad PLD new meta yo
By volkom 2019-09-23 13:28:23
new pld trait ~ able to wield a 2h sword with a shield.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2019-09-23 14:09:00
You mean dual wield shields.
Ochain/Aegis for the win!
By Shichishito 2019-09-23 14:57:52
new pld trait ~ able to wield a 2h sword with a shield. i think we already went over this.
is PLD already great again?
By FaeQueenCory 2019-09-23 15:31:49
They should buff Atonement.
Make the r15 augment +200 enmity instead of +100. ( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ͜ʖ ͡°) ͡°)
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Caitsith.Mahayaya
Server: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3341
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2019-09-23 16:05:58
They should buff Atonement.
Make the r15 augment +200 enmity instead of +100. ( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ͜ʖ ͡°) ͡°)
Atonement so stronk
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By Taint 2019-09-23 16:21:18
PLD already can’t die. The issue is that’s all it brings to the table.
PLD has three short comings.
AoE hate
DPS
Offensive party buffs
RUN has all three of those and can’t die either.
PLD could have permanent invincibility and people would still bring RUN.
By Chimerawizard 2019-09-23 16:25:04
give it a new trait.
10% of blocks deal 1000x damage taken back on the target.
add a debuff that makes all enemy conal and AoE attacks single target for 1min.
add a buff that doubles the pdif cap for those in range.
 Asura.Shiraj
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1118
By Asura.Shiraj 2019-09-23 16:31:09
I've said this like 10000000 times, so i'll say it again even though people don't listen lol. PLD is ***. The only way to make PLD somewhat relevant is by nerfing RUN entirely.
I hear the old saying "RUN needs to be engaged to parry, RUN is only good because it parries". No you pleb, stop thinking that. RUN is literally unkillable with physical damage when it's engaged and when it is disengaged. Stop being a tool and believe PLD is better at tanking disengaged, you sound like Ronstadt when he said VIT is better than PDT.
PLD's VE and CE generation is *** compared to RUN's. Boosting PLD's VE does nothing, PLD doesn't struggle for VE, but RUN is just better at it. However, PLD struggles for CE more than it struggles for Magic Evasion.
Everyone just has to accept the fact that PLD is the lazy man's tank job that presses like 2 buttons and it's chilling.
I'm not even mentioning the DD side of it, we all know the winner is the non-PLD job.
Now stop beating a dead horse and go play RUN, and only play PLD for nostalgic and personal enjoyment purposes; the job sucks more than Cheg.
And before the PLD fanboys come in here. Have fun getting paralyzed off some level 103 ghost or some ***, idk.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-09-23 16:36:39
Absolutely nothing you do or can think of doing is going to help pld short of giving it roll/song/bubble like effects. (unique? stackable?)
Or nerfing RUN. That works too.
Maybe giving PLD 500k HP and making excal 100% proc rate. and en-spirits actually works on enmity. maybe.
PLD vs RUN is like Xbow THF vs COR
Pandemonium.Zeto
Server: Pandemonium
Game: FFXI
Posts: 368
By Pandemonium.Zeto 2019-09-23 21:04:06
Xbow THF at least applies TH8.
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By Shichishito 2019-09-23 21:58:52
*EDIT* Added some of the community ideas.
Hey all, I wanted to try to start a constructive(and hopefully fun) conversation around Paladin. It might be too late, but with job updates incoming at some point this year, I was hoping to get a compilation of decent ideas to post on the official forums.
I feel like Paladin is in a tough spot currently. With the game's evolution and the dominance of RUN, it doesn't leave many scenarios where you'd actually want/need a PLD. Arguably RUN is preferable to PLD for just about all content.
I have both jobs geared decently well, and in my experience RUN brings so much to the table, that I find very few instances where I can justify bringing PLD instead.
Arguably...
RUN offers better damage
RUN offers better group magic damage via gambit and rayke
RUN offers superior hate control
RUN offers acceptable damage mitigation (in some cases better, on par, or slightly worse than PLD - but still all to acceptable levels)
RUN offers better overall party damage mitigation
My goal isn't to try an match all of these elements, but to try to provide PLD a bigger niche to fill. Hopefully its enough to justify using it on more content.
Here are my proposals. Please consider them independently of each other. I'm not suggesting that they all be implemented together or even each bullet point within being implemented.
Fix shield block rate
Allow reforging of Aegis and Ochain with shield skill+. RUN gets enhanced Parry Skill on their weapon. Why can't PLD get Shield Skill on their best shields. Not sure how much would be necessary for balance.
Implement a job trait similar to Inquartata that grants a fixed +block rate, with similar gear enhancements.
consider block+ gear before calculating Reprisal Mod. Credit Martel
Let it block ranged attacks. Credit Martel
Give it a unique mechanism to hold hate better than RUN
Give it another native hate tool
It's obscene that the job is almost 100% reliant on a subjob for its ability to hold hate. Ridiculous and quite honestly terrible design that it's best option is spamming subjob spells that have no chance of landing or abilities that it'll immediately turn off.
Give it foil
Give it a Spell/JA that helps with party magic damage mitigation. 1 minute recast. This would force a single AoE magic damage ability/spell to be single target on the PLD. Could come with the negative that it's MDT+10% or something. If it's a JA, perhaps combine it with another adjustment I'll mention next.
Enhance Rampart
If the wiki is accurate about the Def boost, then adjust this to give much more def. Perhaps a % based on current PLD def.
In conjunction with the above new JA. Drop Rampart recast to 1 minute as well. Rampart could not be up at the same time as the new JA. I feel like this + the new JA can rival All-for-One, Valiance, and Liement while still having weaknesses of basically only eating one move each.
Enhance cover
Drop it's recast to 60-90 seconds.
Give it an additional effect of providing AoE physical damage mitigation in a wide cone behind the PLD. Perhaps tied to Phalanx or perhaps just a PDT II effect.
Block AoEs from hitting Covered PC. Credit to Martel
While active it cover's whoever has hate. As hate shifts around they just need to run behind the PLD. Credit to Martel
While active it cover's everyone in alliance behind the PLD. Credit Eightball.
I'd actually like this to be an ability we could full time and switch targets maybe with a 5-10 second recast. It'd be pretty strong, but would require some player input to maximize it. And have it so you can cover any PC in alliance
Fix Flash
Just let the damn thing land without a shit ton of magic acc and actually be potent enough to have something miss. I miss when Flash actually took effect. We HAVE to gear this thing for Enmity because that's basically our only good native tool.
flashga. Credit Martel. Would be really good for PLD to get some kind of AoE hate move.
Adjust Enlight
Fix Atonement
Have it mirror Mordant Rime but with STR and VIT as modifiers. With the additional effect being an enmity increases with TP.
No clue how hard this would be, but make it only target party members and it literally drains their enmity, but deals no damage. Scales with TP and Enmity+ gear for a multiplicative effect on drained enmity.
something...anything... please god make it suck less...
magic evasion
Give PLD better magic evasion. Credit Martel. Personal note, I wouldn't necessarily want RUN levels of MEva for a sense of keeping jobs unique, but holy crap PLD gear in general has awful MEva. Just give a bump to AF/Relic/Empy gear MEva.
shield bash
My goal in the above was to turn PLD into the safer party/alliance tank that's actually able to hold hate on longer fights. I don't want PLD to try to approach RUNs damage output. I also don't want PLD to try to provide the same status effect defenses. I don't necessarily like that I'd have PLD eat into RUN's magic defenses superiority, but with the game in its current state, magic damage is the killer. PLD just needs some mechanism to help the party mitigate magic damage. I feel like RUN will still dominate most of the game. I don't see these changes eating into anything besides maybe Dynamis D and some of the really tough end game fights, but this would at least give PLD a purpose. I think many people will still prefer kill speed, but possibly this lets people trade some kill speed for safety.
Some of these are probably overpowered and I'm all for people ripping them apart. Maybe while doing so, provide how it might be balanced.
Thanks for reading.
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