|
|
To Automate, or Not to Automate
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-04-08 16:51:42
If someone cant esuna I wouldnt care if they use react. Just dont demand everyone else should use it "or else you suck" over a simple mechanic thats not even a big deal. It's a VERY big deal. I've watched 3 groups wipe from it already.
Everything you think is "easy" add 11 difficulty for assuran correction.
Hopefully someone makes a bunch of alts to spam easy solo with trusts on your server to bump wait times more if thats how you people think.
If anyone was going to do that, it would be me that does it.
It wouldn't be a big deal if you could not be an *** and make some friends.
 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-08 17:04:33
That stage is past. Money Onry.
After the next ban cycle if this piece of ***is still going maybe I'll role play fun guy instead.
By Torzak 2019-04-08 17:06:49
The automation that peeves me:
CPing/Exping while asleep, at work, at the bar, or otherwise not at your computer for hours at a time.
#1) You can't respond to tells for a respect or a courtesy message/goal/objective/request/anything.
#2) It's often times blatantly obvious that you're botting because the observable behavior of your toons is robotic/consistent.
#3) The bots are often so dumb they attack CFH'd targets like Beist and proceed to get themselves killed trying. It's actually proven to be a fun way to test who is botting in escha - you get Beist to pop and then CFH it and sleep it and see which dumb dumb attacks it and gets themselves killed. Some of the bots have been improved and will no longer fight Beist haha. Also, bots can often attack what would be to a real player an obviously slept target near an actual CP party - it's slept and in place for a next kill. At that point, the bot is harassing the legit party. Also, a lot of times you can take a bot for a walk... far far away... it's amusing.
#4) After a whole hour of me holding every mob in a botted area (24+ mobs) far and away from the bot's scripted area with something like RDM with an OP phalanx set, you then have a friend in the botted area watching the bots run back and forth like they are on crack or something and you then send them a tell like, "how's the CP?" and then they jump on 20mins *after* you sent the tell crying a river of *your* "harassment" because of holding mobs and how they are going to call a GM on you. Yes, please do. You're clearly going through trees and through logs or other terrain obstacles and running faster than 18% movement speed while wearing ZERO movement speed gear. Not only that, but you didn't even know that the mobs were all being held in another location for the last hour and possibly wouldn't have known if we didn't send a tell asking how the CP was. That's how obvious and ridiculous some of these bot sessions are... and how ridiculous some of the people behind these bots can be, that they'd threaten to call a GM on me for holding some targets away from them while they were clearly not just botting, but speed hacking and going through terrain that they shouldn't be able to go through.
I'm a firm believer that, while AFK, your toon's progression should be limited to bazaar/AH sales and a few misc other timing considerations that are just simply part of the game. Your toon shouldn't be botting the AH, crafting while botting the AH, killing stuff, etc all while you're away from the computer for *hours*.
I personally don't really care if you use something like react or gearswap, or an automated remedy for paralyze or automated echo drop for silence. I do care if you're position hacking your dead corpse to a safe location - that's ridiculous.
Honestly, there's probably a bunch of stuff that's gray area for a lot of people and they just accept it or deal with it and there's other things that some people can't accept or don't want to deal with. I think most legit players would agree that it sucks going to a camp for CP only to find that it's being monopolized by people who aren't even sitting at their computer.
For me, I wish SE would start deleveling BLATANT CP/EXP/ROE quest botters or cheaters to level 1. Doesn't really hurt their bottom line for subscriptions, it allows the player to learn a lesson and still be able to play the game, and makes it obvious that that behavior isn't going to be tolerated. Repeat offenders can have every job deleveled to 1 for all I care. And if they can't learn their lesson still, reset all their magic/combat skills, too.
[+]
By Shichishito 2019-04-08 19:02:32
I dont really care much about automating or not in a 17 year old video game. If I do well in this game, Im not getting a promotion, nor recognization from my parents.
i see this argument thrown in quite a lot.
chess is hundreds of years old and i'm pretty sure most chess players would still be pretty pissed if you turn on DeepMind or AlphaZero mid match.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-04-08 19:41:12
I dont really care much about automating or not in a 17 year old video game. If I do well in this game, Im not getting a promotion, nor recognization from my parents.
i see this argument thrown in quite a lot.
chess is hundreds of years old and i'm pretty sure most chess players would still be pretty pissed if you turn on DeepMind or AlphaZero mid match.
Kinda poor analogy. Chess is a 1v1 mental game between two people. For the most part, FFXI is a cooperative team game.
By Sidiov 2019-04-08 19:44:23
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »Kinda poor analogy. Chess is a 1v1 mental game between two people. For the most part, FFXI is a cooperative team game. This. I view it like you are playing a coop game with your autistic cousin and you have to let him play whatever he wants and score it however he wants. FFXI (Asura) is just 10,000 autistic cousins.
By Foxfire 2019-04-08 20:17:19
play however the *** you want, with people willing to put up with you
that's all it boils down to at the end of the day
By Shichishito 2019-04-08 20:29:58
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »Kinda poor analogy.
you could insert any old game in the analogy above and the point would still stand. the point wasn't chess = FFXI, it was cheating doesn't all of a sudden become valid just because a lot of time passed.
its easy to pick apart analogies if you argue past the point.
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »For the most part, FFXI is a cooperative team game.
just because FFXI has piss poor PvP doesn't mean there is no competition. just look how serious people are about achievments points, max damage/new REMA screen shots or the prime example - scoreboared results.
people came up with a lot of ways to make it a e-peen comparison contest.
[+]
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-08 20:44:40
That's not competition that's retardation.
Competitive in the same way Special Olympics are competitive.
By Shichishito 2019-04-08 21:37:30
That's not competition that's retardation.
Competitive in the same way Special Olympics are competitive.
now thats a poor analogy, i think you owe special olympians a apology!
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 728
By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-08 21:40:43
parsing has its uses. its a godsend addon imo.
Bismarck.Nyaarun
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1006
By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-09 08:49:58
The automation that peeves me:
CPing/Exping while asleep, at work, at the bar, or otherwise not at your computer for hours at a time.
#1) You can't respond to tells for a respect or a courtesy message/goal/objective/request/anything.
#2) It's often times blatantly obvious that you're botting because the observable behavior of your toons is robotic/consistent.
#3) The bots are often so dumb they attack CFH'd targets like Beist and proceed to get themselves killed trying. It's actually proven to be a fun way to test who is botting in escha - you get Beist to pop and then CFH it and sleep it and see which dumb dumb attacks it and gets themselves killed. Some of the bots have been improved and will no longer fight Beist haha. Also, bots can often attack what would be to a real player an obviously slept target near an actual CP party - it's slept and in place for a next kill. At that point, the bot is harassing the legit party. Also, a lot of times you can take a bot for a walk... far far away... it's amusing.
#4) After a whole hour of me holding every mob in a botted area (24+ mobs) far and away from the bot's scripted area with something like RDM with an OP phalanx set, you then have a friend in the botted area watching the bots run back and forth like they are on crack or something and you then send them a tell like, "how's the CP?" and then they jump on 20mins *after* you sent the tell crying a river of *your* "harassment" because of holding mobs and how they are going to call a GM on you. Yes, please do. You're clearly going through trees and through logs or other terrain obstacles and running faster than 18% movement speed while wearing ZERO movement speed gear. Not only that, but you didn't even know that the mobs were all being held in another location for the last hour and possibly wouldn't have known if we didn't send a tell asking how the CP was. That's how obvious and ridiculous some of these bot sessions are... and how ridiculous some of the people behind these bots can be, that they'd threaten to call a GM on me for holding some targets away from them while they were clearly not just botting, but speed hacking and going through terrain that they shouldn't be able to go through.
I'm a firm believer that, while AFK, your toon's progression should be limited to bazaar/AH sales and a few misc other timing considerations that are just simply part of the game. Your toon shouldn't be botting the AH, crafting while botting the AH, killing stuff, etc all while you're away from the computer for *hours*.
I personally don't really care if you use something like react or gearswap, or an automated remedy for paralyze or automated echo drop for silence. I do care if you're position hacking your dead corpse to a safe location - that's ridiculous.
Honestly, there's probably a bunch of stuff that's gray area for a lot of people and they just accept it or deal with it and there's other things that some people can't accept or don't want to deal with. I think most legit players would agree that it sucks going to a camp for CP only to find that it's being monopolized by people who aren't even sitting at their computer.
For me, I wish SE would start deleveling BLATANT CP/EXP/ROE quest botters or cheaters to level 1. Doesn't really hurt their bottom line for subscriptions, it allows the player to learn a lesson and still be able to play the game, and makes it obvious that that behavior isn't going to be tolerated. Repeat offenders can have every job deleveled to 1 for all I care. And if they can't learn their lesson still, reset all their magic/combat skills, too.
I mean, the reason jp botting exists is because of how mind numbingly grindy it is.
Bismarck.Nyaarun
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1006
By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-09 09:09:42
I dont really care much about automating or not in a 17 year old video game. If I do well in this game, Im not getting a promotion, nor recognization from my parents.
i see this argument thrown in quite a lot.
chess is hundreds of years old and i'm pretty sure most chess players would still be pretty pissed if you turn on DeepMind or AlphaZero mid match.
Major chess tournaments both players actually use AI to play against to see what moves the opponent is likely to use. So i doubt anyone would be angry at something thats literally allowed.
By eliroo 2019-04-09 10:23:57
parsing has its uses. its a godsend addon imo.
It is alright. This game is a bit memey when it comes to parse. I don't think it has the same effect that it is does on, say FFXIV, where gear variance is less severe and people can deal around the same amount of DPS.
That being said it allows you to see who is severely under performing which is great for offering helping.
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 79
By Cerberus.Tacothecat 2019-04-09 10:35:39
Major chess tournaments both players actually use AI to play against to see what moves the opponent is likely to use. So i doubt anyone would be angry at something thats literally allowed.
What tournaments are you going to? Every Chess tournament I have been to banned the use of analyzers to the point of getting caught means DQ.
Unless you are talking about people not playing, but even that is questionable as there was one guy that got caught with someone else using an analyzer and was using radio receiver to hear the best moves from someone in the crowd.
I have even been to some tournaments where they do not allow electronic devices of any kind in the building.
Bismarck.Nyaarun
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1006
By Bismarck.Nyaarun 2019-04-09 12:24:18
Cerberus.Tacothecat said: »Major chess tournaments both players actually use AI to play against to see what moves the opponent is likely to use. So i doubt anyone would be angry at something thats literally allowed.
What tournaments are you going to? Every Chess tournament I have been to banned the use of analyzers to the point of getting caught means DQ.
Unless you are talking about people not playing, but even that is questionable as there was one guy that got caught with someone else using an analyzer and was using radio receiver to hear the best moves from someone in the crowd.
I have even been to some tournaments where they do not allow electronic devices of any kind in the building.
Major world chess tournaments allow the use of AI. Its not even "allow the use", its pretty much mandatory.
Hello folks. The general consensus among many FFXI players these days is: get it done as quickly as possible. There's no time to feel pride. There's no time to try anything different. We take the route of least resistance, happily smashing the easy button to acquire our shinies. But when does it get to the point you're no longer playing the game? When does it get to watching the computer play it for you? SE has never had much control over what 3rd party tools can do, and nowadays .. they've given up entirely outside of any extreme examples of "printing money".
I've always tried to shy away from automation, but it's becoming ever clearer that players find it necessary. Not only that, but they feel the need to slate others for not doing so. To some, it's becoming the expected norm. It's the same for farming gil .. no one wants to graft anymore, they'd rather stick bots in an area, go to sleep, and come back to easy money. Threads don't devolve in to "what job is best/worst" anymore. Instead, they devolve in to "you suck because you need react", "you suck because you need to bot for gil", or "you suck because you use luas to automate your job".
I have never used organizer, or anything similar. I have never used React. I can see the benefits though. Like, if I botted .. I'd have more gil and many more ultimate weapons. If I used Organizer, I'd never be late for a WS (distractions eliminated). If I used React, I probably wouldn't be getting killed by the Tonberry shadows from last months Ambuscade (they were so annoying to react to).
I am guilty of somethings though. Like, I recently tried the Voidwatch script which lets you trade, pop, and take rewards out of the chest automatically. I also used to bypass the Sparks NPC to get Shields quicker (before SE changed it). The only automation I look for are convenient quality of life things which saves my fingers. But when does it cross the line? And when do you start letting the game play by itself? And why should we even care if others do? It's their subscription after all. What's more important? Learning how to play the game "properly"? Or using as many tools as possible so you don't need to learn?
Is it more important to use React so you don't wipe your Ambu party (and get stuck in the Asura queue)? Or show you don't need it and can learn (with some wipes) to do so manually? Are you Ok with people leaving after a failed run because your pride got in the way of using React? Or do players suck because they feel they need it? And botting has always been around in some form, and I know some who do. Many don't have the time (or motivation) to farm manually every day. I never have the motivation (nor do I multi-box). Am always telling my linkshells how lazy I am. So gil doesn't come from nowhere for me, not like those who do. Am I wrong? As a LS leader, should I be taking advantage of these shortcuts? Or do I set a better example by showing I can earn everything without?
This isn't a thread about bashing one playstyle or the other. What it's about, is better understanding why some feel the need to, or not to, shortcut the game to the point of (almost complete) automation. How do we "react" to things in situations when React would have saved us? How do we farm (and stay motivated) gil without bots? Can we find ways to better educate those players who just copy/paste dump a lua? So on days when Windower isn't working they can actually play FFXI vanilla? Believe it or not, I can still play vanilla. How alien would it be to some though? With no scripts? No luas? No addons? Impossible. I would like to see a for vs. against debate which remains on topic. It would be appreciated, but am not expecting it. Let us know what you think about automation play in FFXI? Thank you.
|
|
