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To Automate, or Not to Automate
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1185
By Odin.Senaki 2019-04-05 16:41:20
Nothing is "difficult on its own" to react to to be fair. It's just something you HAVE to look out for. Its like when they invite you to zerde and you're asked to be stun duty. Looking out for Just Desserts isn't hard, but it's annoying to sift through text waiting for it. React eliminates any need to have to actively pay attention to it. I don't think there's any example of things you can't normally react to, but when you're in the middle of battle pressing buttons, it can take you several seconds to fire off that button that might save your life. React sounds more like a convenience.
As a DRK for life, stunning has always been a huge part of this game for me. Having an addon do it for me? Takes a lot of fun out of it. Saved so many lives because I reacted in the right moment. I would never have got at good at stunning if I started this game with an addon to do it for me, it came through years of experience doing it in high pressure situations. So while some may see React as a convenience, I see it as something which stifles your potential to learn how to anticipate a mobs behaviour.
Yeah I agree, that feature sounds like it adds exactly what I hate about FFXIV and WoW - the game tells you when the Mob will do something bad.
As a Run main, it is very satisfying to throw out One-For-All at the correct time to save the party from a wipe. x3
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-05 16:41:50
Oh I agree for sure it's great to be able to react on a whim and you get a certain sense of joy. I certainly do. But when you have a full alliance of a LS depending on you to do one job, and then you fail, you will feel like burying your head in the dirt like an ostrich. Some people just don't want to handle that kind of pressure xD.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Shiva.Arislan 2019-04-05 16:41:54
It is physically impossible to cast the proper spell.
Wrong.
No matter how much you practice. You can only get lucky.
Wrong.
As people have already said to you multiple times, you can win the Ambu w/o keeping barspell thing up. Regen V, Esuna, Curaga, repeat.
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 16:42:21
Nothing wrong about it, sorry.
You can win without it though.
If you're in the menu sitting on "baraero" and it use Aero Meeble warble, You might be able to hit enter twice fast enough. But if it uses Fire Meeble Warble. You will not hit up three times and enter twice in time. and you sure as ***aint typing it out.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:42:55
Ultimately the question of whether and how much you want to automate difficult content comes down to how much you actually value endgame content as a play experience. Some people really enjoy it and consider it a culmination of their in-game experiences, and for others it's an annoying necessity to get through for the sake of gear and their friends.
I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer for everyone, because we're all doing this stuff in groups and while the broad goal might be the same the reasons for doing it are different. Maybe your WHM friend leans on Cure-Please as much as he possibly can and that irks you, but he does it because he hates endgame fights and if he couldn't just show up and lean on gear + AI to do his bit he'd be stressed and miserable. Are you really gonna tell him he's wrong and just lose your WHM?
The only time I don't invite someone is because a) their attitude stinks, b) their character is nowhere near ready for the content, and c) they do not follow direction. Playstyle is never something I consider when inviting someone. This subject is something which peaks my interest though, because of the way it divides the playerbase (in their opinions, not from playing FFXI together).
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Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:46:57
Oh I agree for sure it's great to be able to react on a whim and you get a certain sense of joy. I certainly do. But when you have a full alliance of a LS depending on you to do one job, and then you fail, you will feel like burying your head in the dirt like an ostrich. Some people just don't want to handle that kind of pressure xD.
Then those people have no patience and are sore losers. I've wiped full alliances before with my crappy Dynamis pulling. Wiped alliances because I failed to stun something important. We brush it off, chalk it down to bad luck and go again. That's a big issue these days .. where like, if you don't absolutely destroy the content first time (even if ya never done it before), then you suck and some will angrily move on.
Like those players who drop from Ambuscade because you take 20 minutes to kill a Normal Ambu instead of jumping in to VD with literally zero experience of the fight. Had they let the players learn, the group would get good enough to do it on Difficult in half the time after a few fights. There's no patience at all. Now now now.
Edit: As for reaction speed, you absolutely can learn it. Whenever you do anything in life, whether it be sports, playing games, doing anything which involves a reaction, if you keep doing the same thing over and over you'll learn and adapt better. But there's always a ceiling to it depending on the individual. There's always a point you can't learn how to react any quicker to the situation.
 Phoenix.Erics
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 569
By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 16:49:28
If you're in the menu sitting on "baraero" and it use Aero Meeble warble, You might be able to hit enter twice fast enough. But if it uses Fire Meeble Warble. You will not hit up three times and enter twice in time. and you sure as ***aint typing it out. i think the fastest way would be making 6 macros and getting familiar with the layout just holding alt or crtl and pressing 1-6 in response
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Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 16:50:59
And then you fatfinger 2 instead of 3 and party wipes! fun!
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Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1052
By Shiva.Arislan 2019-04-05 16:51:53
If you're in the menu sitting on "baraero" and it use Aero Meeble warble, You might be able to hit enter twice fast enough. But if it uses Fire Meeble Warble. You will not hit up three times and enter twice in time. and you sure as ***aint typing it out.
No wonder you have to use react.
Phoenix.Erics
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 569
By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 16:55:53
Projecting? or just being argumentative? its 6 buttons and thats your only job the duration of the combat part of the fight. Its in no way unrealistic or overly complicated. If ur set on 100% using someone with react no ones telling you not to use them but there are in fact alternatives whether you accept them or not.
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Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 16:58:23
As for the meebles bar-spells thing, I remember this fight from before (not done it this month yet). We only trusted a player who joined our group and said "leave barspells to me". It does require someone who not only has good reflexes, but has had enough practice doing it.
Trusting someone you have never partied with to do it flawlessly straight away? Is unfair. Even someone with good reflexes needs some experience of the fight to get used to it. If that means we wipe a few times? So be it. Luckily I'm on Cerberus, so wait times do not exist.
Phoenix.Erics
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 569
By Phoenix.Erics 2019-04-05 17:04:15
You could automate Weapon skills, rolls, songs, healing, and even set up react files for DT sets when mob uses WS. You can 'idiot proof' most aspects of the run but someone will still find a way to mess it up if they are that bad. Its best to go with people you trust anyways but i see the safety in having a random person using react if they can even set it up or are willing to use it.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 728
By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-05 17:06:50
As for the meebles bar-spells thing, I remember this fight from before (not done it this month yet). We only trusted a player who joined our group and said "leave barspells to me". It does require someone who not only has good reflexes, but has had enough practice doing it.
Trusting someone you have never partied with to do it flawlessly straight away? Is unfair. Even someone with good reflexes needs some experience of the fight to get used to it. If that means we wipe a few times? So be it. Luckily I'm on Cerberus, so wait times do not exist.
Well, Unfortunately for Asurans, we've developed the way we handle this solely because we don't wanna trial and error new members through 3 fails at 40min page waits each. Thats why on some ambu months you see in shouts "Need to know fight". So this mentality is SE's fault really. 2page wait times and you fail? no big deal, 20-40pg wait times? you better bring your A game.
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Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 17:07:15
Yeah there's some players with such poor reactions that it often becomes a hindrance (liking the person doesn't change this). They're the only kind of players I'd expect to use it, otherwise I think it takes a lot of the challenge out of the game for those who don't require it. Of course, some just HATE to lose and will see someone dying because they decided not to use React as a liability.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-04-05 17:07:58
Quote: The only time I don't invite someone is because a) their attitude stinks, b) their character is nowhere near ready for the content, and c) they do not follow direction. Playstyle is never something I consider when inviting someone. This subject is something which peaks my interest though, because of the way it divides the playerbase (in their opinions, not from playing FFXI together).
I can only speak for myself, but I seriously don't care for endgame fights in MMOs and never really have, so I'll gladly pivot to the path of least resistance whenever possible. It's genuinely difficult for me to keep a positive attitude in endgame events because I just really, really do not enjoy them and even when the people I play with make it bearable I've never been able to suffer the stress and tedium for more than two or three months at a time. I'm the guy who up and quits your 10/12 Mythic Raid guild in WoW because he's sick of it.
That said, I really adore everything else about the game, so the gear I get from doing those events is usually worth it in the long run. It's just a question of finding ways to navigate the intermediary, which for me would almost certainly be rampant automation if mercing didn't exist.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 728
By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-05 17:11:56
it is what it is with me. use react or dont. just do your job right. these waits are too long for me to be trusting barspellers, so im just smn burning this month.
despite the hot debate of react, in my experience doing melee setups this month, most either dont use or dont have it setup right.
Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 17:12:57
As for the meebles bar-spells thing, I remember this fight from before (not done it this month yet). We only trusted a player who joined our group and said "leave barspells to me". It does require someone who not only has good reflexes, but has had enough practice doing it.
Trusting someone you have never partied with to do it flawlessly straight away? Is unfair. Even someone with good reflexes needs some experience of the fight to get used to it. If that means we wipe a few times? So be it. Luckily I'm on Cerberus, so wait times do not exist.
Well, Unfortunately for Asurans, we've developed the way we handle this solely because we don't wanna trial and error new members through 3 fails at 40min page waits each. Thats why on some ambu months you see in shouts "Need to know fight". So this mentality is SE's fault really. 2page wait times and you fail? no big deal, 20-40pg wait times? you better bring your A game.
And there's this issue. Glad I do not have to experience this. Longest we have to wait is three or four pages at any given time? Most of the time we're straight in. Getting stuck in the queue certainly adds a lot more pressure to party recruitment. A lot of stress I imagine. I do see how it's hard to give people a chance to learn when you don't want to get stuck waiting in ridiculous queues.
Quote: The only time I don't invite someone is because a) their attitude stinks, b) their character is nowhere near ready for the content, and c) they do not follow direction. Playstyle is never something I consider when inviting someone. This subject is something which peaks my interest though, because of the way it divides the playerbase (in their opinions, not from playing FFXI together).
I can only speak for myself, but I seriously don't care for endgame fights in MMOs and never really have, so I'll gladly pivot to the path of least resistance whenever possible. It's genuinely difficult for me to keep a positive attitude in endgame events because I just really, really do not enjoy them and even when the people I play with make it bearable I've never been able to suffer the stress and tedium for more than two or three months at a time.
That said, I really adore everything else about the game, so the gear I get from doing those events is usually worth it in the long run. It's just a question of finding ways to navigate the intermediary, which for me would almost certainly be rampant automation if mercing didn't exist.
I get this point as well lol. I like endgame stuff, it's the most fun part for me as we get the group together and have a good time. I always say that for endgame events, you want to be with the right people. Not just people who are strong enough, but people you can relate to on a personal level. Otherwise you get the win and go .. "See you guys, thanks for the clears .. bye!" And you never talk again. No one cared who used what, and who didn't do what .. so long as everyone got the win.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1544
By Asura.Vienner 2019-04-05 17:18:28
Try being a WHM in the bot era, People will prefer taking their bot WHM (that generally stinks but hey I guess it gets the job done or not almost everyone I know would share this mindset) to events or farming whatever piece of gear (you would actually need cause you're trying to gear up your alt, which you dont bot) then asking you as a proper geared WHM with years of experience....cause that alive and breathing WHM is a person you would have to share with.
Cept for dyna and ambu...cause hey....mind comming WHM, we need you... Hilarious.
Edit: Also bout my alt, I love using send. Just like Lady I have the damned taru all setup to do what I want in ,mostly, known situation. I love that one press of a button makes everything work together, it took me quite some time to set everything up, but atm for me tackling content with my alt is the most fun I have in game (when I'm not on WHM).
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-05 17:21:18
No one voluntarily plays whm though. So. yeah. It's too much pressure. Too much effort. Too important.
Blame the bot. Is so much easier than asking a player over and over and over and over.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 728
By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-04-05 17:23:20
I remember UltimateHealer back in the abys days, That cure bot was fantastic. anyone could just say para, slow, erase in chat and it'd cast it on them. people would setup whm bots in the worm camps, and the bot would run around curing/erasing people all night and day
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1544
By Asura.Vienner 2019-04-05 17:23:59
No one voluntarily plays whm though. So. yeah. It's too much pressure. Too much effort. Too important.
Blame the bot. Is so much easier than asking a player over and over and over and over. If someone asks me to come WHM I'll come WHM without whining. If ic we lack a WHM I'll volunteer to do so. It is also the job I feel most comfortable on playing.
I just always seem to end up playing together with the WHM bots like some kind of ffxi outcast.
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Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 17:33:04
I know people who like playing WHM, and we don't use WHM bots either. Seen them before, but is quite rare for me .. although it's fairly obvious when one is present.
 Quetzalcoatl.Commencal
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 341
By Quetzalcoatl.Commencal 2019-04-05 17:38:13
The biggest difference between cure bots and a real whm is preemptive cureskin, bots don't do that. Or decide not to cure that *** and teach him a lesson.
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Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 17:41:17
Can always tell when there's automation going on with the WHM, because every time I use my HP set for Dread Spikes they cure me immediately.
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Quetzalcoatl.Orestes
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 430
By Quetzalcoatl.Orestes 2019-04-05 17:48:46
Organizer - But not as you think! There is only one reason I have Organizer set up, and that's for job changes. In a certain thread, I was informed you can use this addon to "freeze" your inventory for each job. You collect all your equipment and use the following command: //org freeze inventory - This creates a job.lua file that can be refrozen over in future. To bring your gear in, simply be on that job and type //org o inventory - SE's "Inventory Management" mini-game is not something I enjoy, and before this I was using GearCollector.
Maybe I'm being naive here, but what else would you do with organizer? The use-case you listed is what it was designed for.
Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 17:52:12
Quetzalcoatl.Orestes said: »Organizer - But not as you think! There is only one reason I have Organizer set up, and that's for job changes. In a certain thread, I was informed you can use this addon to "freeze" your inventory for each job. You collect all your equipment and use the following command: //org freeze inventory - This creates a job.lua file that can be refrozen over in future. To bring your gear in, simply be on that job and type //org o inventory - SE's "Inventory Management" mini-game is not something I enjoy, and before this I was using GearCollector.
Maybe I'm being naive here, but what else would you do with organizer? The use-case you listed is what it was designed for.
I thought it was mainly for using luas to automate actions? When it was introduced, I had to ask around to find out how you use it to replace gearcollector.
By Shichishito 2019-04-05 17:52:54
Quote: Maybe your WHM friend leans on Cure-Please as much as he possibly can and that irks you, but he does it because he hates endgame fights and if he couldn't just show up and lean on gear + AI to do his bit he'd be stressed and miserable. Are you really gonna tell him he's wrong?
if the whm realy was my friend and i knew he hates the game i'd ask him to come up with something else we can do together instead of forcing him to sit thru FFXI endgame with cheats just to bend everything to my personal needs.
Quetzalcoatl.Orestes
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 430
By Quetzalcoatl.Orestes 2019-04-05 17:56:52
Quetzalcoatl.Orestes said: »Organizer - But not as you think! There is only one reason I have Organizer set up, and that's for job changes. In a certain thread, I was informed you can use this addon to "freeze" your inventory for each job. You collect all your equipment and use the following command: //org freeze inventory - This creates a job.lua file that can be refrozen over in future. To bring your gear in, simply be on that job and type //org o inventory - SE's "Inventory Management" mini-game is not something I enjoy, and before this I was using GearCollector.
Maybe I'm being naive here, but what else would you do with organizer? The use-case you listed is what it was designed for.
I thought it was mainly for using luas to automate actions? When it was introduced, I had to ask around to find out how you use it to replace gearcollector.
I think that must be something else. Organizer is all about inventory management. afaik, nothing special is really needed to automate actions with lua scripts, besides the core windower library.
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Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4612
By Cerberus.Kylos 2019-04-05 18:01:50
Quetzalcoatl.Orestes said: »Quetzalcoatl.Orestes said: »Organizer - But not as you think! There is only one reason I have Organizer set up, and that's for job changes. In a certain thread, I was informed you can use this addon to "freeze" your inventory for each job. You collect all your equipment and use the following command: //org freeze inventory - This creates a job.lua file that can be refrozen over in future. To bring your gear in, simply be on that job and type //org o inventory - SE's "Inventory Management" mini-game is not something I enjoy, and before this I was using GearCollector.
Maybe I'm being naive here, but what else would you do with organizer? The use-case you listed is what it was designed for.
I thought it was mainly for using luas to automate actions? When it was introduced, I had to ask around to find out how you use it to replace gearcollector.
I think that must be something else. Organizer is all about inventory management. afaik, nothing special is really needed to automate actions with lua scripts, besides the core windower library.
Thanks :)
By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-04-05 18:08:58
Quote: Maybe your WHM friend leans on Cure-Please as much as he possibly can and that irks you, but he does it because he hates endgame fights and if he couldn't just show up and lean on gear + AI to do his bit he'd be stressed and miserable. Are you really gonna tell him he's wrong?
if the whm realy was my friend and i knew he hates the game i'd ask him to come up with something else we can do together instead of forcing him to sit thru FFXI endgame with cheats just to bend everything to my personal needs.
Your friend wants to play FFXI and he knows Utu Grip will help. He also knows this is literally the only thing in the game you actually need each other for. Now what?
Hello folks. The general consensus among many FFXI players these days is: get it done as quickly as possible. There's no time to feel pride. There's no time to try anything different. We take the route of least resistance, happily smashing the easy button to acquire our shinies. But when does it get to the point you're no longer playing the game? When does it get to watching the computer play it for you? SE has never had much control over what 3rd party tools can do, and nowadays .. they've given up entirely outside of any extreme examples of "printing money".
I've always tried to shy away from automation, but it's becoming ever clearer that players find it necessary. Not only that, but they feel the need to slate others for not doing so. To some, it's becoming the expected norm. It's the same for farming gil .. no one wants to graft anymore, they'd rather stick bots in an area, go to sleep, and come back to easy money. Threads don't devolve in to "what job is best/worst" anymore. Instead, they devolve in to "you suck because you need react", "you suck because you need to bot for gil", or "you suck because you use luas to automate your job".
I have never used organizer, or anything similar. I have never used React. I can see the benefits though. Like, if I botted .. I'd have more gil and many more ultimate weapons. If I used Organizer, I'd never be late for a WS (distractions eliminated). If I used React, I probably wouldn't be getting killed by the Tonberry shadows from last months Ambuscade (they were so annoying to react to).
I am guilty of somethings though. Like, I recently tried the Voidwatch script which lets you trade, pop, and take rewards out of the chest automatically. I also used to bypass the Sparks NPC to get Shields quicker (before SE changed it). The only automation I look for are convenient quality of life things which saves my fingers. But when does it cross the line? And when do you start letting the game play by itself? And why should we even care if others do? It's their subscription after all. What's more important? Learning how to play the game "properly"? Or using as many tools as possible so you don't need to learn?
Is it more important to use React so you don't wipe your Ambu party (and get stuck in the Asura queue)? Or show you don't need it and can learn (with some wipes) to do so manually? Are you Ok with people leaving after a failed run because your pride got in the way of using React? Or do players suck because they feel they need it? And botting has always been around in some form, and I know some who do. Many don't have the time (or motivation) to farm manually every day. I never have the motivation (nor do I multi-box). Am always telling my linkshells how lazy I am. So gil doesn't come from nowhere for me, not like those who do. Am I wrong? As a LS leader, should I be taking advantage of these shortcuts? Or do I set a better example by showing I can earn everything without?
This isn't a thread about bashing one playstyle or the other. What it's about, is better understanding why some feel the need to, or not to, shortcut the game to the point of (almost complete) automation. How do we "react" to things in situations when React would have saved us? How do we farm (and stay motivated) gil without bots? Can we find ways to better educate those players who just copy/paste dump a lua? So on days when Windower isn't working they can actually play FFXI vanilla? Believe it or not, I can still play vanilla. How alien would it be to some though? With no scripts? No luas? No addons? Impossible. I would like to see a for vs. against debate which remains on topic. It would be appreciated, but am not expecting it. Let us know what you think about automation play in FFXI? Thank you.
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