String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*

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String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
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 Asura.Nuance
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By Asura.Nuance 2021-06-15 20:10:51
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Asura.Bixbite said: »
Yes you are right its just a 2% dmg boost lol. Not worth it unless you only play pup like me.


I applaud you in doing so, I've yet to really pull the trigger on it myself I really wanna make KKK and such but my inventory can't take much more. Maybe after they update the inventory stuff idk.

I've really only used PUP in puppet zerg situations and not much else. Spent a ton of time skilling up the magic puppets thinking I would just play it like a worse MNK with a puppet RDM or WHM :D
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By Nariont 2021-06-15 20:13:05
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Asura.Nuance said: »
Armor Shatterer is a 4 hit might be messing with your test there
It's a single hit at 4x dmg, may be worth trying an actual multi-hit like bone crusher to see if dmg is applied to each hit. Could also try nukes though I highly doubt it applies to that.

Really just a shame it wasnt more, dmg+5% is just not a whole lot, and with 0 atk on any of these its all the worse, considering theres 3 other paths that could provide a good deal more mileage
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By Asura.Bixbite 2021-06-15 20:31:39
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Could also try nukes though I highly doubt it applies to that.

It doesn't, its basically the xiucoatl, mpaca stat. Why can't SE just name them the same thing lol.
Tested Tegmina Buffet seems to boost it even less then 2%.
27697>27986
31743>32040

Quote:
I mean, was there any reason at all to suspect it was more than just the +% bonus added to damage?

I was hoping it was a different stat using the faulty logic that it is shared with BST and SMN. The Nyame body and legs lack any attack which is manageable on Pup since Armor Shatterer caps attack on most things but it’s really bad for BST and SMN who need attack. Why would they make a pet aug set that is only viable for one of the three jobs.
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By Nariont 2021-06-15 20:34:10
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I figured it was phys/ws(like cannibal blade/magic mortar) only but couldnt hurt to check, even if it did, again, lack of atk in this case mab, wont be winning against relic legs.
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By Aerix 2021-06-15 21:40:46
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I mean, was there any reason at all to suspect it was more than just the displayed +% bonus added to damage? If anything, there's a chance it has diminishing returns when combined with Xiucoatl/Mpaca, making it even less potent.

One could hope SE named it Pet: DMG+% so it works as a separate mulitplier in the equation and isn't additive to existing Pet WSD. If we're lucky. Right now it's likely adding less than 2% because the game calculates stuff in 256ths.
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 Asura.Bixbite
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By Asura.Bixbite 2021-06-15 22:33:25
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Even at 5% I think it’s still good for pet pup. But due the massive power creep other jobs received. It’s a lot of effort and the sacrifice of two amazing sets. For a job role that isn’t viable in new endgame content.

Hopefully the upcoming job adjustment take into account that against the “hardest” boss Bumba v15 supports (brd, cor) are doing 50k savages and DD are hitting 99k savages and that pet jobs have fallen so behind in pet damage. That it’s impossible for them to win.
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 00:51:59
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Asura.Bixbite said: »
Even at 5% I think it’s still good for pet pup. But due the massive power creep other jobs received. It’s a lot of effort and the sacrifice of two amazing sets. For a job role that isn’t viable in new endgame content.

Hopefully the upcoming job adjustment take into account that against the “hardest” boss Bumba v15 supports (brd, cor) are doing 50k savages and DD are hitting 99k savages and that pet jobs have fallen so behind in pet damage. That it’s impossible for them to win.

SE has always been afraid to make pet jobs too powerful because of their safety compared to regular setups. Hell, they've been nerfing SMN so hard in new content that it's relegated to just being a utility/support job now.

Sadly, chances in this lifetime are very low we'll see pets do anything close to what people are dishing out with SB, even outside of zergs.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 00:52:13
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Pup can't do same DPS as DD or even support.. automaton is almost invincible. Also it takes all the buffs in the game SPed to bring brd or Cor to that level of power and it would still take some mobs to fart on them and to fully dispel them and they would be down to floored accuracy and 1000 damage Savage Blades. Then another fart to kill them. Automaton would need to be under same risk if you want to make same damage. Otherwise it would be pup X5 + Cor killing everything in this game (beside gaol and I don't think they will make anything like gaol restrictions to one job ever again) watching Netflix.
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 00:58:11
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SimonSes said: »
Pup can't do same DPS as DD or even support.. automaton is almost invincible. Also it takes all the buffs in the game SPed to bring brd or Cor to that level of power and it would still take some mobs to fart on them and to fully dispel them and they would be down to floored accuracy and 1000 damage Savage Blades. Then another fart to kill them. Automaton would need to be under same risk if you want to make same damage. Otherwise it would be pup X5 + Cor killing everything in this game (beside gaol and I don't think they will make anything like gaol restrictions to one job ever again) watching Netflix.

Honestly, the only real solution to this is to allow pets to benefit from buffs just like players. Pets would become just as susceptible to dispels ruining DPS like players and avatars or jug pets aren't as tanky as matons to begin with.

As for matons, the full DPS setups are nowhere near as invincible as a turtle tankmaton (closer to a jug pet if anything), so if that was required to keep up with other pets it should be a non-issue. The only real concern here would be the Bruiser becoming too powerful with buffs, and even that's fairly weak to magic damage. But really, if the Bruiser could deal even half the damage of a real player they might finally become viable, albeit situational, tanks for melee DDs.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 01:45:27
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If you could get benefit of buffs on auto, couldnt you easily switch some of the offensive attachments to make auto way more tankier? Like Turbo Chargers would be useless with marches for example right?
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 01:52:10
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SimonSes said: »
If you could get benefit of buffs on auto, couldnt you easily switch some of the offensive attachments to make auto way more tankier? Like Turbo Chargers would be useless with marches for example right?

Turbo Chargers could be changed to provide JA haste instead of magic haste so matons could actually reach the cap. They'd still be mandatory for maximum damage. As long as Overdrive continued to provide magic haste the change wouldn't even interfere with PUP's current style of solo zerging certain content, either.

With regard to other standard DD attachments being replaceable due to buffs: Inhibitors don't really work in party settings and aside from Tension Springs, Stabilizers and Target Marker (which can often be skipped anyway) there really aren't any attachments you could drop thanks to songs/rolls because they all provide unique bonuses.

As of right now, even if you cap out a maton's Attack and Accuracy it still is nowhere near competitive with the master, let alone other DDs, due to being unable to reach the 80% delay cap, lack of STP/MA and having weaker WSs. Even if you were to cap a maton's delay and give them Samurai Roll, it wouldn't put PUP in heavy DD territory. Not to mention you'd lose all the safety of pet burning, which I think would be an acceptable cost for the extra firepower.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 02:10:04
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Still think it would be too much exploitable. You could support auto with geo meva and -macc bubbles. Meva and chaos roll and honor/march/carols and add 3xPUP. That would cover bruiser only weakness, which is meva and make it pretty much invincible, since geo buffs cannot be dispelled. I just people would find even more ways to exploit it.
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 02:14:27
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SimonSes said: »
Still think it would be too much exploitable. You could support auto with geo meva and -macc bubbles. Meva and chaos roll and honor/march/carols and add 3xPUP. That would cover bruiser only weakness, which is meva and make it pretty much invincible, since geo buffs cannot be dispelled. I just people would find even more ways to exploit it.

Matons have really bad base MEVA; they'd never be able to become as resistant as a full Sakpata/Malignance/Nyame user, especially in content with nerfed GEO. Not that matons being invincible is an actual issue. Even if a 3x PUP BRD COR GEO setup were viable to beat content, SE could always introduce mechanics that would make pet burns require effort or outright impossible. They've certainly already done it with WoC and Gaol.

I don't think anybody would really care if PUP setups could suddenly do Aeonic, Omen or Dynamis-D (more efficiently). It's old content at this point and basically faceroll for established players anyway.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 02:45:26
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Aerix said: »
SE could always introduce mechanics that would make pet burns require effort or outright impossible.

I can already see people raging at this. "So you have finally gave us some power SMNs have for years only to make it irrelevant right away with restrictions" and Im well aware of the fact that SMN isnt even close to being OP, but 95% of playerbase only know what SMN with SPs can do in Escha and its all that matters for them. Most pet jobs players only care about bringing pet burn parties back and only few individuals like you care about pet jobs being relevant in regular party setup. At least thats my impression, but maybe Im wrong.
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 02:47:29
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In a perfect world I'd want pet jobs to be relevant in both pet burns and in regular party setups.

If pet burns could always clear the same content at a slower/safer pace there's really no downside to making them viable (which is how it works for Omen currently). Meta setups would always be more efficient if players want to go that route. I just don't see any of this happening with the power creep and zerg mentalities these days, however.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 02:51:56
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Aerix said: »
If this were perfect world I'd want pet jobs to be relevant in both pet burns and in regular party setups.
Yeah but you know its impossible if you want to give pet same buffs as players. Most DD jobs without buffs wouldnt be relevant too and are actually weaker than automatons without buffs now.
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 03:27:55
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SimonSes said: »
Aerix said: »
If this were perfect world I'd want pet jobs to be relevant in both pet burns and in regular party setups.
Yeah but you know its impossible if you want to give pet same buffs as players. Most DD jobs without buffs wouldnt be relevant too and are actually weaker than automatons without buffs now.

Outside of Overdrive I don't really see any pet burns doing content without buffs either, though. GEO and COR are almost always a staple if you don't want to spend an hour on a fight.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 03:42:29
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If you want to give automaton players buffs, then automaton without buffs should be weaker than DD without buffs or tank without buffs and automaton is currently stronger than that. Lets not forget PUP is not only an automaton. Maybe week or two ago you was discussing with me that with buffs PUP master is on similar level of dps to COR with buffs. So even assuming you would need to equip maybe 2 pieces of gear specifically for automaton (or maybe even not if Turbo Charger would be changed to ja haste) your total power of PUP and automaton on buffs would easily exceed anything in the game and would be totally unbalanced.
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 03:49:04
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SimonSes said: »
If you want to give automaton players buffs, then automaton without buffs should be weaker than DD without buffs or tank without buffs and automaton is currently stronger than that. Lets not forget PUP is not only an automaton. Maybe week or two ago you was discussing with me that with buffs PUP master is on similar level of dps to COR with buffs. So even assuming you would need to equip maybe 2 pieces of gear specifically for automaton (or maybe even not if Turbo Charger would be changed to ja haste) your total power of PUP and automaton on buffs would easily exceed anything in the game and would be totally unbalanced.

The DPS comparison between master and COR was strictly in terms of Savage Blade spam in a full buff setting. COR has a lot more to offer than that with rolls, ranged and magic WSs.

PUP being a stronger DD wouldn't make it unbalanced at all, as it can't buff the rest of the party like COR can. Even if the Automaton's current DPS tripled due to songs/rolls the job as a whole wouldn't come close to a heavy DD as right now the pet only does <10% of the master's output with standard party buffs and dual TP gear. Moreover, even if PUP was able to DD while fulfilling the tank role it'd still just be on the same level as RUN, except more vulnerable to AoEs and hate resets. Puppet Roll already exists, so BLMatons would barely change.

And let's be serious here: if you're completely unbuffed you're not going to clear any meaningful content whether you're a DD or a pet job, so why would it even matter? A Bruiser without Overdrive, GEO or COR does pitiful damage even with optimal gear. Not to mention DDs can perform reasonably well with Trust buffs, which are available almost everywhere. There's literally no modern content where a player would be completely buffless unless all your Trusts got killed or after death/full dispel, which could also affect Automatons.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 04:28:59
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The comparison with COR was for dps perspective, not for direct comparison. If automaton would only really be 30% of master with buffs then you are maybe right they would be at most at heavy DD level, but I have a feeling it would be higher than 30%. Anyway I'm done speculating, because usually it's just waste of time anyway XD
 Asura.Bixbite
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By Asura.Bixbite 2021-06-16 05:25:55
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Warrior is the best DD currently due to it hitting 99ks while providing the party with +700 tp bonus on warcry. Dragoon specifically for Bumba gives the party dragon killer and angon.
Pup provides no party utility and cannot self buff properly. The most it provides is easing up on healing when its the tank.

So it would not become overpowered if it gained a huge boost in pet damage with the upcoming job progression system.
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By Aerix 2021-06-16 07:38:35
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SimonSes said: »
The comparison with COR was for dps perspective, not for direct comparison. If automaton would only really be 30% of master with buffs then you are maybe right they would be at most at heavy DD level, but I have a feeling it would be higher than 30%. Anyway I'm done speculating, because usually it's just waste of time anyway XD

I agree that it's a waste of time to keep speculating. So I just want to end this on a final note that if a PUP were to go full DD it means they would lose most, if not all, their utility purely for DPS because the VE frame can't compete with the SS in terms of damage, especially not when using tanking attachments.

At that point the PUP can't provide any notable benefits to the rest of the party aside from a -15% Defense Down, unlike COR or heavy DDs who have Savagery Warcry, Circles, -25% Defense Down, Mantra etc. So I think that alone would balance it out quite fairly. Not that I think the change would put PUP in heavy DD territory to begin with nor is the job designed to be that.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 09:02:43
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Asura.Bixbite said: »
Warrior is the best DD currently due to it hitting 99ks

WAR can only do 99k when buffed by most buffs in the game including SP. That is not what job can normally do. If we only pick peak performance, I can say automaton can solo Vinipata with only Overdrive doing 50k+ Bone Crushers (and BRD sleeping adds/stunning Vini).
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By Asura.Bixbite 2021-06-16 10:40:06
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Im just saying its providing dd, tanky enough for all the bosses, buffing the party with +700tp bonus on the new content.

Puppet does not have the option to be super buffed into a mega dd tank. Even at optimal conditions your vintapa its still just doing 50k every few seconds at much less frequency then melee dd can output their weaponskills. If it has inhibitor on it will freeze with other dds in pt or self skillchain closing with a weak slashing weaponskill.

Quote:
WAR can only do 99k when buffed by most buffs in the game including SP. That is not what job can normally do. If we only pick peak performance, I can say automaton can solo Vinipata with only Overdrive doing 50k+ Bone Crushers

Vinipata is old content with old rules and looking at his bg.wiki page. It says he can doom? Yama's Judgment that would be undispellable on puppet. When i said tanky for all bosses im saying it can tank the new v15 fights while providing superbuff damage.
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By Asura.Cicion 2021-06-16 10:42:03
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Give a JA that strictly copys masters buffs to auto like empathy spirit link does for drg. But i like the idea of just having rolls and song effect pets straight out. Dunno what would change for drg pup bst and companions roll if they did that.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 10:44:55
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Asura.Bixbite said: »
tanky enough for all the bosses

You mean tanky enough as DD who doesnt get hit by nothing but AoE? All jobs in the game are tanky enough for that.

As for Vinipata:

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 Asura.Bixbite
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By Asura.Bixbite 2021-06-16 10:50:56
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Pup and pet jobs in general cant be super buffed into relevance for new content and the new gear isnt bringing their damage up enough to beat the fights. Odyssey requires superbuff to beat.
You play devil's advocate by showing Pup duo boxing old content.

How does that help Pup and other pet jobs going forward with new and upcoming content? That im assuming this amazing new odyssey gear is balanced around. Why even make a Nyame path D only give pet dmg 5% or less if that augment set isnt even viable for the content it comes from (bumba v15.)

Quote:
You picked what WAR can do totally overbuffed with SP and every possible buff in the game almost. WAR like that has around 20k DPS, while normally WAR without SP and with standard buffs has like 10k dps.

Warrior and any other dd attempting v15 has access to superbuffs. Its not an exploit and you wouldn't use dds without support. So why would you ever take unbuffed warrior dd into account.
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 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2021-06-16 10:56:28
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PUP overall needs a lot of work. Especially with one of the only ways to circumvent its shortcomings is to use a certain gearswap or sit in gear for a moment. With multiple frames, and really only one widely accepted without overdrive. Meh.
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By SimonSes 2021-06-16 11:05:57
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Asura.Bixbite said: »
Pup and pet jobs in general cant be super buffed into relevance for new content and the new gear isnt bringing their damage up enough to beat the fights. Odyssey requires superbuff to beat.
You play devil's advocate by showing Pup duo boxing old content.

How does that help Pup and other pet jobs going forward with new and upcoming content? That im assuming this amazing new odyssey gear is balanced around. Why even make a Nyame path D only give pet dmg 5% or less if that augment set isnt even viable for the content it comes from (bumba v15.)

Im not playing devil's advocate. You missing the context of discussion or something. We were talking of "what if PUP can get players buffs". I dont think the current Overdrive PUP is OP, I was talking how possibly OP it could be with Overdrive AND buffs. Also Gaol mobs arent in any form of pure stats harder than Vinipata. Vinipata has higher evasion, def and stats. Also like I said its picking up peak performance. You picked what WAR can do totally overbuffed with SP and every possible buff in the game almost. WAR like that has around 20k DPS, while normally WAR without SP and with standard buffs has like 10k dps.
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By Siren.Kyte 2021-06-16 11:37:37
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If implemented as a Spirit Link-like transfer, then it still wouldn't transfer over GEO buffs or SMN Favors, and with GEO debuffs being pretty commonly nerfed these days, that would help keep it in check.

I'm not sure about a 1:1 transfer but there certainly is room for adjustment.
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