Max Theoretical DPS?

I just assumed that casting time nor HP lose from SE doesn't count because condition set was no penalty for such things.

Also assumed 100% up time of scarlet at absolute max potency, because once again, no penalty.

But I guess your point is that if the mob doesn't fight back then you can't activate scarlet bonus, then it goes back to the "JA isn't up at max potency" territory. And it's still not fair.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. It's an interesting discussion at the very least. DRK would get the shaft in the department of "putting out most damage in this time frame" if it's not allowed to make use of a good number of its tools that (1) keeps it alive and (2) adds latent dps over time. I still think Warrior is at the top regardless of what condition you place on it (with SAM, DRK, RUN closeby). WAR can maintain Full/Armor Break, and 5~6 step(?) forever. SAM can do never-ending tachi:jinpu, which nobody can confirm how high up it scales.

Every job has its own tricks that makes it unique, so this made up scenario is really only going to ever favor ones whose abilities and tricks are geared towards solely attacking the target.

Monk

We're not even getting into one of WAR's greatest DPS boosts, Retaliation. Everytime something takes a swing at the WAR, there is a ~60% chance the WAR gets a free attack round on the target. That's not a free attack but an entire attack round, meaning multi-attack procs along with associated TP returns. This free round can proc even if in a WS animation, the only thing that stops it is stuff like Stun / Petrify / Terror or if the monster isn't in the frontal arc. Now combine this with TP sets that have somewhere north of 90% DA and you can see why once a WAR gets hate it tends to keep it unless the WAR deliberately throttles down damage.

Which brings us back to why "max theoretical DPS" is ***. Whatever conditions the OP sets are going to determine "the best" which is a job(s) they already favor winning. We can get into party damage boosting effects like Warcry and the various circle abilities. +700 TP Bonus for everyone for 60s is *** broken for short duration fights, and just overpowered for everything else. +15% damage done & -15% damage taken & +15% intimidation rate is also an extremely powerful effect that can be maintained for nearly four out of five minutes.

@Buukki: Don't forget that Food goes over the 9999HP cap too! :D

lel, especially when the thread is named "Max Theoretical DPS". You'd have to be high to argue otherwise.

Guys, I hate to invoke Poe's law here, but are we sure this guy isn't trolling? Nobody is actually that stupid, right?

If we're doing something where attack/acc is capped and getting buffs to bonus TP and bonus STP then THF really would just 1k spam Rudra's for 3k TP. Getting a 13 FTP on top of getting force crits is basically a forsure choice. Although Rudra's damage has slightly taken a set back to some 2h jobs it's still a top 3 weaponskill in terms of damage and is the best when forced to crit from SA/TA although positioning fast enough for SA/TA over and over would be tedious it'd provide in my mind the best DPS where you can SC with yourself. The main thing is just the 2 step darkness with SA/TA closing every SC for super high damage. could easily be looking at 90k-120k with a self 2 step before white damage is applied.

In a set up where everyone is just spamming the strongest weaponskills and not skillchaining then things like Warrior or SB Blu's start becoming stronger choices. THF is still strong but falls down to 4/5th on the list. Being that my RDM USED to top charts in almost every WoC i did for SB RDM I have no doubt that a BLU can out preform a RDM in SB matches. In a long 10 minute fight BLU might top the charts with SB pretty easily although with the right buffs Cala Drk and Reso War/Run start becoming top dogs too. I still think SB Blu would beat them all.

Don't get me wrong SB builds are pretty good, I use them on COR BLU and RDM... but Savage Blade averages about 35k @pDIF cap at 1k TP, whereas at PDIF cap that's where WAR and RUN's baselines start and it just goes up from there.

People have said repeatedly that RUN is probably the answer to this question. Just because they referenced it's resistances and survivability doesn't mean that's all it has to offer.

It's a 2 hander with access to a plethora of Triple attack, Double attack, and Quad Attack gear, and you can even get TA+STR in it's Reso Sets. WAR Gets impressive numbers with a different approach, but if you were saying you were attacking a wall with max buffs constantly and they never dropped, and you could only 1hr once within an hour, and you WERE pDIF capped (because it would be *** stupid to not be for this discussion's sake) Then RUN would likely win in the mass Zerg situation with WAR close at heel, possibly even beating it depending on the gear of the two players, and with the solo DD SC situation it would be the same story, except with SAM leading the pack, and WAR once again right behind or possibly just ahead of it.

Someone else said attack would be uncapped on something with WoC stats, so I went with it. I simply said all buffs/debuffs that would be available in a pure DPS setting. Surely you can read, right?

You fail at wit almost as badly as you fail at asking questions.

And yet, there were people who knew exactly what was asked. Learn to read, thanks.

Lol

And there were also people who knew your question's stupidity was rivaled only by your own.

Well, I could easily be wrong but from my own experiences and spread sheet data I used to store. THF(Rudra's selfchain) and BLU(SB) were the one and two punches for SC and non-SC. Reso is good when warcry is up(for war) when it falls you'll have a small down period where THF and BLU catch up and surpass the WAR. Also yeah I could agree that RUN could top damage charts in full buffs in both set ups but i don't think it straight up would consistently beat out THF for SC'ing let's not forget that with capped Pdif and forced crit Rudra's can easily hit 40-50k(Although more like 40k on WoC). I think it'll be pretty close between SB Blu/Rudra Thf/Reso RUN.

RUN gets close but in pure DPS WAR will end up winning, it's just the raw amount of offensive JA/JT's present along with the ridiculous gear it gets for Resolution. Again that's just assuming a flat out Reso spam fest, when in actuality if there was only one DD they should be doing a 3~4 step SC with Chango. What happens with RUN is their WS damage tends to be extremely variable due to the wide range of MA's possible while WAR's damage tends to be more centered, still variable but not as many highs and lows. It's the difference between having stupid amounts of DA vs moderate amounts of TA on a 5-hit WS with an 8-hit cap. I've had far too many DD RUN's try to brag, only to have me print out their averages across multiple fights.


SA / TA timers vastly limit THF's DD potential and your doing the thing I mentioned where you confuse average WS damage with the highs your eyeballs remember. Chart your damage across multiple fights with people who actually know what their doing, if your competition is using a Rag then they don't know what they are doing. STR based WS's get a 25% Bonus from their STR due to fSTR working as +1/4 base damage. Then the +15.3% extra damage all 2H get from higher attack cap pretty much end that comparison. So while both Rudra's and Savage are powerful they hit a very real damage ceiling while WS's like Reso and Stardiver go higher. And ultimately this is all about damage ceilings and reaching them. Under the right conditions an Aeonic SAM spamming Jinpu beats everything. Those right conditions are super BRD +COR songs then multiple Idris GEO's doing Frailty, Fury, Acumen, Maliase and possibly Focus and Langour with wind weather being applied.

It'd still lean in the favor of RUN in an extremely long single fight with no breaks between for warcry on the Warrior. If we are assuming the WAR has another WAR to keep Warcry up for like 80% then WAR wins this whole thing case closed. Plus if we are talking SC'ing RESO Run can just self-chain over and over with Reso while WAR can not(Although i know were talking about non-sc) It'll be closer than you think between RUN and WAR as RUN has higher highs and not much lower lows. I'd assume over a long fight where WAR loses Warcry then RUN will easily sweep in and take the lead and over 10 minutes the damage RUN gets while Warcry is off the WAR will be much higher than the damage WAR gets while Warcry is on.

It depends on buffs. Bolster frailty fury cc No.11 chaos angon dia 4 may cap it. The question is are we allowed use those?

If the RUN is SCing then so is the WAR, which is what I was saying. If the WAR is just spamming Reso then the RUN isn't scing either. WAR also gets a higher average attack per round so more WS's over the period of measured time. Warcry is amazing but it's not the only JA/JT WAR has and lets not forget the brokenness that is Retaliation.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zv6C1D04LxwjEE_464C4_Hv9eYqtaezQKfCcfWafwZc/edit#gid=0

Download that and plug in your various MA values to get average attacks per round, which can then be combined with WS delay and Store TP to determine average time between WS's. That number is the lifeblood of damage ceilings. RUN lacks offensive JA / JT's and is relying on an Aeonic and a stupidly powerful Weaponskill. It doesn't even get the best Resolution gear, though it has nice runner ups. I have both an incredibly well geared DD RUN and a WAR and while the RUN is good it's not faster then the WAR. The benefit it does bring is it's incredible survivability and resistance to status ailments. Situations that would cripple other DD's barely slow down a DD RUN.

For WoC, if your not using appropriate barspells and carols then Impact Stream can slow down other DD's while barely touching a RUN, same with Medusa Javelin.

Wait is this true? I never knew.

How is RUN not SC'ing with Reso spam and Aeonic? Another thing to bring up is retaliation has no uses if the mob isn't attacking you in some way. While Warrior has good JA's RUN has access to better overall Weapon choice and temper. Most of Warrior's good JA's won't apply here since you can't use MS(because OP banned 2hours), Retaliation(because it's not attacking), berserk(because you're already pdif/attack capped) So you're stuck with Blood rage/Warcry/restraint for uses. blood rage is good when warcry is down but will not make up the DPS loss that much. Restraint will hardly do anything when spamming that hard on a mutlihit. So really it's Warcry/Blood rage with their up and down times vs Aeonic+Temper with 100% up times. Also with access to a decent amount of TA RUN can hit the hit cap when War will rarely hit it(because you can only multi-attack twice during a weaponskill) Also, another thing to note sure WAR gets all that free DA and with gear it'll hit a really high DA but RUN gets a good amount of DA with temper and a good amount of TA with gear. If TA is applied first in a WS you only need 20% TA and 25% DA to hit reliable hit caps for RESO. I mean, truthfully it's all he said she said things but how do you think WAR tp's better than RUN when RUN gets access to overall better tping gear for a 2hander?

If we're talking theoretical max DPS anyways, a RUN will have a WAR rotate in to give him savagery constantly.

Another thing to add is while I'm fighting for RUN's I actually still think THF with Rudra's Spam crushes everything if played perfectly with SA/TA timings and perfect gear.

Because your artificially limiting one job deliberately. If RUN can SC with Lionheart then WAR can CS with Chango and GAXE is far better at multi-step SC's then GS.



And that is where you started to fail. Imagine if RUN's temper was permanently emboldened and turned into a JT, yeah that's a naked WAR. Now lets go one step further and if your inside Escha (you are) then you can use Raetic Algol which is like speed, met and crack all mixed with cocain. Now since this is a fantasy situation with "ultimate whatever buffs", you can have all the refresh you want.


What ... the .... holy ... hell

Reso has a 8 hit cap ... the second TA only adds one hit. That's why TA is devalued on Resolution. And YOU CAN ONLY CHECK MA TWICE PER WS.

You don't get a TA roll on every hit of Reso.

It works like hits

First hit, Check for QA, Check for TA, check for DA, check Mythic
Second hit, Check for QA, Check for TA, check for DA, check Mythic

Once you hit 8 hits it stops rolling hits. If the WS only has one hit then you don't get a second roll.

ItemSet 342760

3% QA
10% TA
70% DA
59 Store TP (very important)

That's the Reso set, yes it includes QA and TA along with a ***ton of DA, STR, Store TP (very important) and the required amount of Atk/Acc and Tp Bonus moonshade of course. If you only have 20% TA / 25% DA then most of your WS's won't get any extra hits. You need to be punching much higher then that because your only rolling twice.

For TP gear

ItemSet 353033

5-hit Base that slightly over TP's

3% QA
12% TA
94% DA
Average Hits Per round: 2.125
49 Store TP (only need 46)

The only improvement I can get is a DM augmented QA +3 Body / Hands which have eluded me so far, the results would be 2.15 for average hits per round, a 1.1% increase. For those DA's, the WAR JSE cap is DA Damage +20% and that way it works is the entire attack round gets the 20% damage bonus when it procs, including retaliations (when that is being counted). RUN doesn't have access to Flamma, Sulvia, Argosy or Valorous. Instead it gets the light armors which are more centered around DEX then STR. I have no idea how you think light armor (MA + Subtle Blow) is better for 2H DD's, it's the exact opposite with light armor being better for DW jobs and heavy armor (MA + Store TP) being what 2H DD's use.

I think he had alot of implied speech here. What he's saying is that if WAR were SC'ing they'd be using Chango, not doing Reso Spam, and Chango 5 Step will be more compelling than reso spam SC's from RUN, despite having to use some WS that arent quite as strong, simply because SCing EVERY time nearly doubles the effectiveness of each individual WS except the starter, while RUN can do Light/Radiance, they don't get as much SC spams in a row...

Now if you're talking about just spamming WS like you would in a large zerg, I feel like it all depends on how good that RUN's augs are. WAR gets nice solid gear for Reso, but I don't think he'd argue that a RUN with absolutely perfect herc augments wouldn't be rather stiff competition to say the least, especially if the hypothetical situation puts them as always having emboldened temper. but despite how many Aeonic RUN there are, very few of them have anything approaching what is theoretically possible.

I think which would come ahead was more clearly in favor of RUN before the addition of Rhaetic Algol+1, because before that the best weapon WAR got was Montante+1 which falls behind Lionheart by enough to be important. At least as long as you don't have 2 WAR to maintain warcry full time (or super revit, or RD etc [which honestly you probably would so meh]). I feel like the more into the weeds we get with this the more obviously rediculous the OP's question becomes. There is no answer to this question, this game is nothing but subjective situations.

It's also worth mentioning that in real world scenarios RUN's main advantage over not just WAR, but all other jobs, is just how resistant it is to debuffs with the right runs, barspells and Pflug, which between pops in Geas Fete there's more than enough time to swap between if you know what you're doing.

In such a situation if WAR were to consistently pull hate like that for retaliation, it would most likely win, as long as they didn't die but the longer they keep hate, the greater chance that will eventually happen. Rather what he's replying to was the situation where you're attacking the proverbial "Do nothing" mob that the OP referred to; in which case I'm happy to concede that RUN would not win, especially if it did not have help FROM a WAR.

So I guess the best TL;DR is that both WAR and RUN are significantly better than most of the populace of this game things, with WAR being slightly better from a pure DPS perspective even without mighty strikes, with a few caveats. Whereas RUN is a tad less powerful, but more versatile and has a higher skill cap with higher potential reward.

I understand how the MA rolls on weaponskills, Yes you're right TA is undervalued but you NEED a TA to reach the 8 hit cap is my point. Something Warrior will get a lot less than RUN while RUN will still have enough DA with temper + gear to land more 7 hits than not. My point is RUN will hit the 8 hit cap more than warrior and will hit 6 hit's slightly more than warrior. Maybe my wording wasn't the best as i've been in a rush but the point being made is you can hit the cap hits at a higher % than war can while barely hitting the lower % due to temper and gear. If you don't hit the 8 cap you'll most likely land a 7 hit. TA is devalued but it's still more valued than DA because it allows you to reach the 8 hit cap(Something DA doesn't allow). now overall in terms of per hits on weaponskills is around even in terms of %. All in all, I agree it's all subjective and in reality unless we could actually see the outcome it's just he said she said. The thing is, what buffs are we allowed to have? If a RUN can have Warcry up the entire fight and so can WAR maybe it's a lot closer? Can you have every buff in the game up? If you can I'll concede to RUN being weaker because all WAR needs is perma refresh/bonus tp on top of all the other buffs in the game and it'll be stronger(something i didn't take into account) If we are only allowed capped attack, haste, and 2 cor rolls then I'd pick RUN easily because you can get SAM's and Fighter's and get insane value for SAM's roll and fighter's.

I honestly hadn't even considered Fighter's roll, I suppose 2 CORs would make RUN the obvious choice, but then you'd have to have 2 COR in the same party. Still interesting though.

The best dps is 99,999 damage per second and only one job achieves this !

No job achieves this. :3

Do you don't, you kinda proved this when you said


You would only think that if you believed MA is being checked every hit, otherwise the absurdly of that becomes very obvious.

The rest is just word salad.

If rolls change then gear changes too and fighters roll just means we go with a 4-hit base set instead of a 5-hit which sacrifices 20~28 DA but that's how much Fighters gives anyway.


Embolden is a 10min JA that results in a buff that lasts less then 2 minutes and has a rough penalty for activation. It's ~1s for cast and 3s of post-cast global lockout, if using Embolden then add 1~2s for JA lockout. That's like saying Warcry is up 100% of the time. And yes RUN is pretty solid, I mentioned that earlier but it's not going to beat a WAR. SAM are WAR are the two jobs with the highest damage ceilings for much the same reason, both innately have JA/JT that compress their WS cycle time enabling a higher volume of WS's to be used. High end DPS is about compressing that time to the smallest possible, it's why jobs like THF don't come close, their damage is tied to JA's with static timers. I've been in longer DPS races with tricked out DD RUN's before, they like to brag about WS numbers then I do a data dump and show them WS frequency and how they lost by a good 20% in total damage. I also show how they had multiple low number WS's that their eyeballs forgot to remember.

Having 50% TA (which they don't have remotely close to) would result in 25% of WS's being 5 hits, 25% of WS's having 9 hits (therefor 8) and 50% of WS's having 7 hits. Having 100% DA (1 TA = 2 DA) would result in 100% of WS's having 7 hits. These numbers would average out, except the second TA's damage is nerfed by half due to the 8 hit limit. Now in practice we tend to carry mixes of QA, TA and DA resulting in an annoying distribution of results, but the overriding theme is massive amounts of DA result in predictably consist numbers and anything that puts you over 8 hits is wasted.

Plus the guy is just trolling everyone, he's a DD RDM and figures he could stew stuff up. I actually have all these jobs tricked out and used them on various high end targets.