Dev Tracker - Discussion

Come on man, define "game changer". Do people take DRG to more content because their Wyvern is 3 levels higher now? Of course not lmfao, it changes nothing.

I mean he think Trishula is a weak Aeonic... even though it was the top polearm till Gleti's narrowed the gap between Ryu and Trish. Both ultimately beaten by the Prime.

Pet level+ just makes it a little bit easier to keep the wyvern around the damage is what makes it a good polearm.

I mean the prime polearm takes drg from "lol, use naegling", to "hey can you open for me with diarmuid however you say that".

So yes, game changer. What drgs have you played with that have it.

Trishula is 100% a weak aeonic, seeing as a Sam with Shining One out-dds it. Opinion, obviously.

On what content? Where are people now asking for DRGs where they previously were not? Come on man.

While Shining One is really good Trish destroys it when you can multi step. SAM is just boring, opinion obviously

I mean, yes, we all have them. Playing with others does happen though.

The problem is that the only content that currently matters is Ody and Sortie and both events aren't really set up to let Primes shine.

God I hope Limbus is less restrictive in what jobs you can bring to the table.

Shining One is stronger as DRG/WAR with higher effective than as SAM, due simply to the WS damage traits. You can try it for yourself in Odyssey if you want. DRG/war gains access to a busted *** Judgment with Mafic Cudgel as well. Not even going into Naegling, but yeah, DRG is very strong with or without prime.

Trish has fallen off, not because it's bad, but because Aeonics are skillchain weapons, and nothing in the current meta rewards high SC damage unless you're using it on certain Odyssey bosses. Ditto with other Aeonics like Chango, which imo is a very good Aeonics. Back when people would lowman Reisenjima or Escha stuff, Aeonics were king. Primes can do it better now, but Aeonics aren't trash, just outdated.

Anyways, I was curious how wyvern level+3 factored in. Does it improve the Empathy level up tier or wyvern bonus, or is it just added survivability? If it's just the latter and stronger restoring breaths, than it's just whatever, the real bonus is the weapon's power, which I have seen in action and it's very powerful.

Wouldn't call it a pointless endeavor, because then that train never stops. FFXI is a game that's going nowhere, but still a game nonetheless. Is it a "pointless endeavor" to keep playing a 22+ yr old game? Is it pointless to get ML30 Even if you can kill something as ML0? Is it pointless to RP all of your gear if you've sufficiently cleared the highest content without it? Is it pointless to level another job that's totally not in demand, simply because you want to? Is it pointless to buy all HQ armor/necks even though you can play your job efficiently with NQ? It's just a game, the goal is to have fun. If making a prime is fun for people, so be it. Not pointless.

PLAESES

I agree with everything you said Buukki, I just love to troll drgs by saying Trishula is weak (which it is).

Really really seems to drive them up the wall. I find it hilarious.

On the pet level, just survivability. Mostly meva buffs from pet level increases. There was some testing on it in bst thread, no idea how that matches with wyverns.

Our drg mostly does Sortie, the wyvern can take some punishment.

That and as you say, a very strong WS with some very good SC properties that meshes well with other 2hand primes.

Prime changes a whole lot for the DRG; (and no, not cause of wyv lvl +3).

Being able to go back to using a polearm without feeling guilty that you're not using naegling IS a big deal, for DRG, even if it doesn't shift the needle on the game as a whole

I mean, kind of? But also: primes do shine in both of these events.

Prime dagger is incredible for DNC, prime sword is great for PLD, prime shield is great for PLD, prime horn is insane for BRD, hell, even the prime club is good for GEO (though probably not necessary, ours uses it all the time).

In Ody, we've have tremendous success with prime polearm, dagger, horn (mostly for lower-tier NMs, though it's also really nice for dispel-spammy mobs). Maybe some others, IDR.

I've already laid out my usual essays about how if you're looking for "game-changing" items in FFXI there are like...fewer than 5 of them so it's a meaningless point. Nearly every REMA in the game and every piece of armor on its own could be considered a toy. The whole point of the game is collecting toys and nominally increasing your character's power with each one until eventually you're an unstoppable murder machine. Sure, each individual item may not be THE ONE THING that completely flips the game on its head, but...that's not the point?

I'd argue with the WS wall present in so much modern content, prime weapons are the most game-changing REMA in most cases, for most jobs.

Not that it's Earth-shatteringly difficult, but we also use prime weapons in Dynamis [d], including the horn of course, and they're stupid strong.

I've actually said much in agreement with what Dodik said here about Trishula.

The problem with Trishula isn't actually Trishula. It's Stardiver. Stardiver unfortunately is a crappy weaponskill in the meta today. It can't consistently do good damage, which means even with the skillchain aspect of it, they also are not consistent enough to warrant.

I long ago just started using Shining One for damage. Trishula can out damage Shining one occasionally with full 5-8 hit stardivers and skillchains, but much more often I get 1 5 hit stardiver and 1 3 hit stardiver for sub par damage.

Shining one is much closer to Naegling damage than Trishula is to Shining one.

Shining One is slightly under Naegling/war or Naegling/Ternion DW. It's 5-7% under Naelging/KC

Edit: For the record I love Trishula, I just couldn't justify using it any more.

I hope so and I kinda expect so for farming. The problem will be the same one we've had for a decade though - if it's a choice of a dedicated tank and 1 or 2 DD or 2 or 3 DD and the mobs hit weak enough, combined with whm infinite MP, then it will always be faster and not efficient to not take a tank which then limits the DDs you get to take for being able to do high DPS with good survivability. I hope it's at least something you can take monk to.

If there are omega and ultima fights then the set ups for those will be quite restrictive I expect. Wish they'd make NIN tanking possible again.

It is pointless if it leads nowhere. ML30/35 helps a lot for Odyssey V25. The goal of the game is to get elite.

Citation needed.

Could probably be said for vast majority of multi-hits, the consistency of heavily stacked WSD along with by and large similar scaling on the that singular/ftp stacked 1st hit vs needing all the hits of a multi-hit to land to equal/slightly outpace just leaves the former generally being both more reliable and just plain better.

If changing the weapon you use 99% of the time on a job is not game changing for that job I don't know what is anymore.

Sorry, but this is still ***.

WAR isn't changing weapon except for maybe a bit of Sortie.
MNK isn't switching from Vere or GH for anything that matters, not used in anything except maybe Ngai which can be done with WAR+PUP probably.
THF isn't necessarily switching outside of Sortie, not that anyone even takes THF to anything so it is irrelevant.
DRK - eh, not sure, DRK sucks for Odyssey and is -needed- for 0 v25 fights. Is never really an optimal DD for Sortie either.
NIN noone cares, not used for anything.
SAM I accept changes weapon
DRG is not changing from Naegling for "99% of content" LOL
BLU not changing from Tizona
DNC is literally only used in sortie anyway, so pointless.
RDM not going to use sword over Savage and BH

Like, what game are you even playing m8?

That is exactly my point actually. Even before the existence of Nyame gear, the meta had already heavily shifted to be almost exclusively FTP scaling weaponskills. At that point, multi-hits with decent FTP scaling COULD hang with 1 hitters with frontloaded damage ok.

Once Nyame became a thing, multi-hit weaponskills have virtually disappeared from the meta due to the fact that they haven't had decent gear updates for almost a decade now.

My one hope (very slim hope) would be that SE would evaluate and give the MNK treatment to all jobs WS. I'd be willing to use stardiver if FTP scaled to say... 3.0 instead of 1.75 at 3k TP.

IMO, all WS need a true up in the way that MNK WS were a few years ago.

On MNK I have 3 WS that all feel good to use, 5 if you include the Kick WS during footwork.

On every other job I have 1, maybe 2.

Edit: I'm going to add that the reason people use Savage Blade Naegling isn't just about Naegling. It's about the fact that Savage Blade was already an extremely good weaponskill and Naegling's extra effect just made it so much better. Savage already has the highest FTP scale (one of) in the game, and then Naegling came out of nowhere and buffed it 15% AND gave a 0-32% attack boost on top of it.

Yes, it's same reason the Sam or War or Drg mythics are not that good - the attached WS kinda sucks.

I am half-expecting a Nyame-like armor set but with tons of MA and crit rate to be added at some point. A bit like Gleti but better, I guess.

But even Monk got a heavy high ftp front loaded WS that takes advantage of Nyame. With the prime h2h.

Removing the attack penalty would be a massive step in the right direction.

I honestly believe it's not a gear issue though.

Who is going to use a 5 hit, 1.75 ftp WS over a 1 hit 13 ftp WS?

You're probably right. Assuming you mean at 3k not 1k.

Doubt we'll see any changes to ws from now on though, the prime WS were effectively the adjustment.

And dagger, h2h, polearm all now have a high-ftp WS of their own.

That's fine, what overall needs to be addressed is the fact that FTP replicating WS have to have some way to compete with the fact that on front loaded WS you can enhance the damage a further 60-90% with WSD.

That means that ftp replicators have to have high enough base ftp mod to compete.

Raging Fists is a good example of how to do this, 5 hit, 1-3.75 ftp scaling, lowish WSC mods.

3.75 at 3k TP means that if you don't miss, and don't get any extra attacks, you're still looking at an effective 18.75 ftp for the WS. Savage at 3k is 13.75 with let's say 70 WSD it's effective 23.375 (not inlcuding Naegling 15%, or extra hit/s)

Obligatory nyame was a mistake, really though i had thought that maybe PDL was their answer to attempting to bridge the gap made by WSD vomit, but then they just didnt put enough PDL on gear that was also heavy on MA and now with aria everyones sitting on a ton of PDL that may not even get used so its back to being fairly equal, thus 1 hit reign supreme

You're probably right that the least painful way would be to just raise the ftp on multi-hits, as gear cant really fix this gap unless they just made a bunch of additional (good) gear that added ftp which is just doing the same thing anyway. Boats long sailed on trying to pull it back without plain nerfing stuff

Even if you did something like all multi hits get a very modest atk boost, or say 2 handed multi hits get the same 99% acc cap that 1 handers get to make the more consistent, i think the single hits will end up the go-to outside of SC purposes

Alternatively, and I know people are gonna ***, but cap WSD.

IF they want to keep ftp low for multi-hits, the best thing they could do is make WSD apply to all hits that also replicate TP. I don't know how difficult or easy that would be to do, but they've done it once by accident already! :D

IF if they don't want to let WSD affect all hits, then multi-hits need inherently higher base ftp progression to even compete with WSD.

But muh DPS, that kinda falls into the nerf section and SE seems intent on not doing hard nerfs to stuff. Wouldnt mind i though, the WSD things been an issue since escha, it just wasnt a huge deal at that time but the gap steadily grew until nyame blew the door off, not even going into that the sets also one of the most sturdy sets for multiple jobs which just adds to the appeal as only sakpata and mpaca really gets away as a multi-hit set(or high ranked nyame still cause heres some DA too!) while keeping its defensive aspect otherwise you're wearing much less defensive gear when WSing