Dev Tracker - Discussion

AFANIA.SIMON.

You 2 are 2 of the most knowledgeable ppl I know in FFXI. STOP IT.





xD

Am I knowledgeable? Pazuzuuu said I was.
I know 3 add 6 is 5

"ladies, ladies, you're both pretty so stop fighting" seems to fit.

AASUMING GENDeR IN 2020?????? You bigot. There are 6000 genders and you assume they are kitchen people??????

Lowman or full group all doesn't matter tbh. Currently it's already tough enough to recruit for lowman group because solo thf keying being extremely rewarding and scales are buyable. If lowman groups are tough then full groups are even tougher to fill up.

Also have to point out that it's not a "complaint". Its feedback regarding design issues that I noticed. I dont even know why people keep viewing feedback as something so negative.


I guess that's why I got annoyed with Baniaks posts? To me "content design(implementing challenges)" and "reward(give players a sense of accomplishment after they overcome the challenges)" is one cohesive concept that should be looked at and discussed as a whole, and they can never be seperated. More so in an MMO since content needs to be sustained. No amount of "good gameplay" can keep players doing it for months or years unless the reward is attractive.

So when baniak got personal and call me just caring about the reward or play ffxi like a job, it annoyed me endlessly. It's completely missing the main point of the discussion.

Odyssey actually has good content design, but unbalanced reward implementation ruined it and wasted so much design potential. And god forbid we provide feedback about this.


Hence why I think a content should be appealing to groups, not just solo players. Some people dont really need THAT much gil nor interested in grinding them. But they do prefer to play with friends or lsmate just for the sake of it. And doing content together is a good way to build the community.

So I just cant get why Baniak said Odyssey should be only attractive to soloers. It's always better to make a content attractive to BOTH playstyle, not just 1 type.

Because they tend to be mutually exclusive and very hard to do.

For example, you have an event A that gives you 10 loot per run solo. If you set it so that it will give 60 loot per run if you do it in a group then everyone would solo because they don't want to bother making a group for the same reward.

Now if you set a 6-person run loot to 120 loot per run then it becomes something like Ambu with powerful players cheese the 6-people run and get bored in a couple days while the single soloists are forced into poverty because their earnings would be a lot lower.

Why? Because a lot of people multi-box and their earnings would be less than 6-power houses but a lot more than soloists. So the market would be quickly saturated with loot from multi-boxers driving down the prices.

the solution is to diversify options within that content, the way the "card-only" path does with Omen. No arguments about the 1% of 1% of RDMs that are soloing the bosses- I'm talking about the intent of the developers.

Clearly the hope was to entice group play with "boss drops" and the boss scales needed for af+3 upgrades. But the content was also developed, even before the dedicated card path was made, that one could +2 their gear in a solo concept but would hopefully team up to achieve +3 gear.

Early levels of Escha content are solo capable for more than not, again encouraging that team-up for higher tiers.

So its not necessarily about making one event palattable to both soloing and group content, but about making different aspects of that content give proportionate rewards for differences in solo or group play.

Not whole Odyssey. Just part of it. Same as part of Omen is great for soloers (Swarts) and part of it is better for groups (bosses).
Imo we so far got the part of Odyssey that is attractive to soloers, or at least doesnt give advantage to pug groups. Imo next part of Odyssey will be better to do in group, or rather it wont be possible to do solo (it will be simply too hard), same as Dynamis (I dont count top end soloers who can solo wave 2 bosses). So yeah WHOLE Odyssey can have parts attractive to BOTH, but naturally the EASIER part of it, which we got, is more suited to be the part attractive to solo players.

You still seems to be missing the point that Odyssey is MEANT to be released in parts and 2nd part can be some big boss floors. They could wait several months and release all of it at once, but they choose to do it in parts and it seems that you cant grasp that concept.

I didnt, you were the one who made the initial statement about "new content should be friendly to soloers but not groups!" "Reward for 6/6 groups should only be 2x more than soloers but not more than that" Then backpedal your statement and changed that into "oh wait dev just haven't implement the group reward yet, let's wait for it."

That's why I feel its mentally draining to have a discussion with you. You didnt even have a point, you just randomly come up with new points for the sake of arguing.

I backpedal? You are just silly at this point.

PAGE 137


Like I said you only get from my comment what keeps you going in discussion. You totally ignore the real sense.

the best part you even wrote this


So you was aware that I'm commenting about first part, then you forgot about it and now saying I backpedal? This is so funny lol

Now best example how you choose to take only part of someone's comment and ignore other part.





I factored clear time and gallantry in my very first post. You ignored "2 times longer and getting 0 gallantry" completely and was keep writing like I havent wrote that at all and no, I havent edited ANY of those posts. Its typical for you. You just accusing people of not reading your posts correctly, but you do it ALL the time with other people posts.

I hope you guys are enjoying... this

@Baniak wrong quote, wrong bold. You cant even read your own post lol. It's alright I know you dont have a point about design atm and have no ability to stay on topic.


Here you clearly suggested SE that solo players should get 2 time less points in same amount of time, aka solo should be encouraged and grouping discouraged.


Here you clearly suggested SE that grouping should not be more attractive than solo.

You previous statements were suggesting that SE should make solo better in this game.(which in terms punishes grouping becauss they cant quite coexist most of the time)

Now your statement suddenly changed into "odyssey will have group content?" If solo ffxi is a game that you want, why are you even saying that?


Exactly what was your intention? If you think FFXI should be more solo friendly, why are you agreeing that next part should have group content? If you dont mind Odyssey having both solo and grouping portion for every type of player, why did you post 3 pages of worthless arguments defending for designs that encourages solo?

It seems to me that when you post you dont even have goals in mind. You just randomly post things that you see wrong, that's it.

That's why I find it a huge waste of time to even have a discussion with you because YOUR points dont address any issues currently being discussed, nor you aim to fix them. MY goal has always been pretty clear. I want a more balanced Odyssey that's more appealing to groups or mid tier gear soloers/low efficient pt aiming for kill NM path, and I've been offering tons of ideas on how to fix these reward balance issues. I dont claim my idea being the best, at least I tried.

But It's all you popping up and shutting down every single idea to improve by keep saying "no! Solo is fine, dont give grouping more rewards" "reward doesn't matter, only gameplay does" "let's wait for next part, it's all in the next part". none of your point aim for specific goals nor aim to fix an issue, you just say things that you see wrong.

I dont see a point to even talk to people who's goal isnt to solve an issue. It counter productive as ***.

If you want to discuss "how to improve odyssey", feel free to post them. If not then please go do something else instead of posting useless arguments here. This is dev tracker discussion.

I think SE should adjust the next Odyssey expansion by:

0.) Adding more floors/areas, branching out.
1.) Incentivizing groups: Every player after 6, allocates a hidden 5-minute Time Extension in the area. (18 people = 12*5 = + 60 minute TE).

I am genuinely surprised (but also not surprised) by how every I know had the reaction to Odyssey: underwhelming and also, disappointed, especially by the lack of a progression system. Most people I know, simply don't do odyssey because you can just buy the scales of AH. (Unless SE puts a system where rewards are obtained based on your level of Moogle Mastery, I don't think people will flock to odyssey, at least in the way that Dynamis, etc is a fully-fledged LS event).

"solo player should get maybe 2 time less points in same amount of time" means that 1 person solo would get half the rewards of 1 person of 6 (or 8 or 10, however many you bring). Solo you would get 1M gil in rewards, but in a full pt you would get 12M to split between the group or 2M per person.

Comparing Odyssey (Sheol A) to Omen or Dynamis D. is dumb. Odyssey is designed for new players to upgrade their gear from low tier to mid/high tier, while containing a few pieces of very-high tier to best in slot so that there is an appeal for highly geared characters. Omen and Dynamis D. were designed for upgrading your gear to best or near best in slot.

Scales being AH-able also makes sense considering that Odyssey is designed for newer players. It gives them something to do solo to participate in the economy which is less braindead than farming old dynamis or salvage.

The more I read this, the more confused I get.

Whats confusing? The majority of the upgrade options don't appeal to people who already have good gear. Like tancho +1 is pretty good at R15 but you probably wouldn't bother if you already have a REMA mainhand and ambu weapon offhand, or even just 2 ambu weapons or kanarias. Agony Jerkin +1 is decent at R15 if you don't need accuracy in that slot, but it's still worse than a good augmentend reisenjima armor or relic body (job depending) and has less general utility than adhemar body. Some are great like sailfi +1 R15, Gelatinous +1 R15, Unmoving collar +1 R15. There are more rewards that appeal to a newer player than appeal to an experienced player.

There's no reason a new player should upgrade mediocre gear in Odyssey, at all. Domain Invasion has made it possible to purchase abjurations, so I'd much rather see a new player put 15 million elsewhere.

Most gear from odyssey is good, but not BiS. But i still think people are overlooking that it has multiple pieces of clear BiS gear you need for multiple jobs.

There is no reason you want to. There is a reason new players would. People forget new players dont have gil income to make 15 mil easily, and the gear from odyssey is low bar entry and powerful. It is much more worth it for them to make the odyssey R15 gear than things like adhemar body.

You have twisted my words countless of times now, so im not surpraised you did it again.

I suggested that when group play has advantage at farming something it should get 2 times more in same amount of time and ofc I meant PER person. How that encourage to solo? You would get more from group still >.> just not way much.

The 2nd thing you bolded has this very important words "not always" that you again completely ignored, to fit your rant. I was clearly saying that why majority events can have advantage of playing in groups it shouldnt always be the case. There should be also few events that should favor solo, so people have incentive to also progress their solo game, not only group game. I wrote that very clear, same as i did write the part about content required grouping being probably on the way. You just ignore half of my posts then make a rants. Pathetic

I didnt ignore your posts, I already said that group getting 2x more reward per person isnt good incentive to encourage group play.

Why the *** should you log on on a specific time, spent 30 mins waiting for 5 other people to show up, then job change to specific job for party composition, just for 300 scales when you can solo 2 runs in the same time frame anytime you want for 300 scales? You have to factor the time spent to get groups together into gil/hr. Once you factor that in 300 scales in 30 min quickly become 300 scales in an hr=150 scales in 30 min, same as solo.

If solo gets you 150 scales per run, partying needs 500+ per person to worth the effort to party up. 2x more rewards for grouping flat out won't work in MMO.



If Odyssey is intended to be a solo content with absolutely no incentives to group up, they would design party size restriction to 1 or only putting a few floors/NM in zone. Contents that's clearly designed to be soloed, such as limit break BC, clearly design around having 1 person in zone.

I dont see the point to put NMs like mimic and multiple somewhat dangerous Nm and fetter on level 7 then claim its "solo content", it doesn't make sense.

So no, this "game should have solo content" argument isnt valid. I see no signs of such design being intended design in Odyssey. It's more likely that they *** up the reward system.


Wasn't really a rant when I was just trying to make you understand the point because you repeatly missing the point or failed to address it. Several people in this thread already confirmed the same design flaw, you are the only person here who repeatly defend for it.

As a player I dont need to "understand" whether SE should be creating new content solo or not, that's SEs decision. My responsibility as a player is just to report the in game experience and provide suggestions. If I find that players interest in grouping are generally low in Odyssey, I simply report this issue and analyze why. It's not my job to make decision on whether odyssey should be solo only or not.

So idk why are you doing the job that's not even our responsibility.

You dont need to design whole other content when you want to make something attractive for group and solo. You can make one content and put both things there. Omen has part that is attractive for solo, which is swart farming and part that is attractive to group, which is boss runs. Odyssey might have the same logic.

Also NM/fetters/mobs are there because high MM combined with izzat discount on chest price and killing Fetters mixed with keying chests solo is far more effective than keying alone. Yes it will require better gear, more investments etc. than just thf built for keying, but the scales income will be much higher. So even if it's still solo, it takes advantage of all things that are put there.

Also being attractive to solo, doesnt even mean it needs to be better to solo. Even if group will get slightly more per char, its still attractive to solo, because you dont lose much not doing it in group. Odyssey still have elements that let solid group farm a lot of scales, while also building MM and other bonuses faster than you can do it solo.

Exactly. If Odyssey has the same design philosophy, but I noticed that solo/buying scales are favored instead of grouping, then there is a design issue. Why cant I report it and let dev know about it?

I just dont understand your intention to argue here.


What you think about designs that would be appealing to group doesn't matter. What matters is the actual result.

If I notice that my connection circles has low grouping interest, My responsibility as a community member is to report this issue. You cant invalid this observation when several people like Muse reported the same grouping experience in this thread. This issue is certainly not just my imagination, but the real experience of more than 1 person.

It doesn't matter that you think that grouping should have benefit on paper. It's just not working at the moment. And God forbid community for posting this issue and let dev know about it. With feedback from the community dev can come up with solutions to fix it.

But you dont understand that they released only a part of Odyssey? They already had most of the next part ready probably. You should first wait and see the whole concept before you start reporting design issues. This section being more attractive to solo or thf might be totally balanced with something else being far more attractive in next section.

Idk maybe you missed 2020 March Digest and you are not aware that what we got is quoting "Entrance section" and they "planning to expend on it several times in the future".

Do you represent SE? If not I'm not going to assume if they have group content planned or not. A players responsibility is to give feedback, not hold back from giving out feedback because they assumed the issues will be fixed......

Still dont get the point to argue...

I'm aware that they have more content planned. But I'm not aware that they recognize the reward design issue and intend to fix that too, at least they didnt say so. So it make more sense to just report the issue anyways. They will fix it when they see it.


They said they have more content coming =/= they recognize reward design has an issue. That's 2 different things.

So you did a post at official forum with suggestions how to fix thf keying problem or at least describe the problem you think is exist? If you haven't and you just write it here, its more to discuss it with people on ffixah, because you are not giving any feedback writing it in this thread.

Afaik SE community rep checks all community forums, not just OF.

If they only ever check OF they will never get accurate feedback since large number of people dont post there or banned.

They might check other forums when its about serious exploit or chests, but I never heard of example that they read anything else than official forum to get feedback. That's why people who really want to push some feedback create post on OF.


Probably, but thats whole other story and they assume that if you really want to provide feedback then you will write on official forum and they probably think that if you get banned from OF then you deserved it and not being able to give feedback is justified punishment.

It came from someone who used to work for SE as community rep, that they do check forums like reddit and report to HQ. If I remember correctly that is since its mentioned many years ago.

Idk, in every Digest they ask for feedback specifically saying "on the official forum", so I'm going with most recent info I see.