Random Politics & Religion #21

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Random Politics & Religion #21
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 10:44:59
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
But since I don't have time here is a video that puts your point to bed:

The point was that there was no evidence of actual vote hacking. Comey came out and said there was no evidence. Using a phrase like "influencing the electoral process" is very broad and could imply a million things.
And yet, we don't have any accusations against the media for influencing the DNC primaries.

Then again, it was proven by Podesta's emails.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-03-21 10:45:39
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
To add, they didn't target voting machines but they did target voter registration systems.

There's a difference between targeting a system and actually successfully infiltrating a system, however. This only proves that the Russians are jerks, not that Trump or his team are in any way accountable for it, nor that Trump wouldn't have won without Russian aid. So.... Yeah.

You should stick to analyzing numbers. When it comes to posters on this forum you've been way off the mark. Having credibility in your eyes is the least of my concerns. It's also something you should refrain from commenting on since you've lacked it for some time now.

"I'm not biased or right leaning, I'm a moderate"


its always a good laugh.

So, you can't refute my statement at all and have to go to ad hominem. Not the best way to defend your credibility, but when all else fails....
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2017-03-21 10:46:42
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fonewear said: »
I'm going to stop you right there amigo we aren't going to research anything !


And that's the problem with this place and many of its posters. Especially the ones that are in denial about it.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 10:47:02
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Eh, just don't bother with him anymore Rav.

Let him have his echo chamber he craves for. That's the only way he can win any arguments.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2017-03-21 10:51:18
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Zerowone said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Comey also confirmed yesterday that there is no evidence, zero of vote hacking in any of those surprise battleground states.

No he didn't. Trump tweeted he did, then at the hearing the panel asked Comey to clarify to which Comey said that was not his intent and that he hasn't begun the investigation manipulation of votes in swing states.

Trump lying on twitter about a hearing that was about Trump lying on twitter was impressive.

However, you should watch/listen to the hearings and not your spin doctors take on them.

Here's an excerpt from the New York Times:

Quote:
NUNES: So — so you have no intelligence that suggests, or evidence that suggests, any votes were changed?

ROGERS: I have nothing generated by the national security industry, sir.

NUNES: Director Comey, do you have any evidence at the FBI that any votes were changed in the states that I mentioned to Admiral Rogers?

COMEY: No.
Check mate!

https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/843893560415936512

You don't know chess very well do you.

This is the equivalent of thinking your pawn is a queen.

Russia tries to influence its the electoral process ALL THE TIME. This isn't anything new. But according to Comey, there was no affect of any of this that translates to votes cast for trump in the upset states that he won.

What the hell is left to prove Trump is somehow illegitimate? If there were no fraudulent votes cast, or fraudulent counting of the votes? What is it that trump or his surrogates could have done to rig the election?
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 10:52:33
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
What is it that trump or his surrogates could have done to rig the election?
Win.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2017-03-21 10:52:52
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
To add, they didn't target voting machines but they did target voter registration systems.

There's a difference between targeting a system and actually successfully infiltrating a system, however. This only proves that the Russians are jerks, not that Trump or his team are in any way accountable for it, nor that Trump wouldn't have won without Russian aid. So.... Yeah.

You should stick to analyzing numbers. When it comes to posters on this forum you've been way off the mark. Having credibility in your eyes is the least of my concerns. It's also something you should refrain from commenting on since you've lacked it for some time now.

"I'm not biased or right leaning, I'm a moderate"


its always a good laugh.

So, you can't refute my statement at all and have to go to ad hominem. Not the best way to defend your credibility, but when all else fails....

No I hit quote on the wrong post. I was responding to. I meant quote directed at me by you regarding my credibility. Should be obvious but here it is to refresh you:

Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Quote:
They'll be back in 2020. They maybe back in 2018 and one of the lessons they may draw from this is that they were successful, because they introduced chaos and divisions and discord and sowed doubt about the nature of this amazing country of ours and our democratic process

-Comey, yesterday at the Hearing on Russia's interference with the 2016 election.


Sounds like some of you posters here are saying the director of the FBI is a conspiracy theorist...

You can't draw a distinction between what Comey is saying and what CJ is saying? I don't think you'd want that kind of shot to whatever credibility you'd like to lay claim to.

Ad hominem much and then acted shocked when the favor is returned? Yes yes you do.
 
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2017-03-21 10:53:42
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
But since I don't have time here is a video that puts your point to bed:

The point was that there was no evidence of actual vote hacking. Comey came out and said there was no evidence. Using a phrase like "influencing the electoral process" is very broad and could imply a million things.
And yet, we don't have any accusations against the media for influencing the DNC primaries.

Then again, it was proven by Podesta's emails.
Seriously! There is 100x more evidence that the DNC interfered in the democratic process than trump did.

But libs won't even admit it because they still can't get over the fact that trump won.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 10:55:22
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Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Russia tries to influence its the electoral process ALL THE TIME. This isn't anything new. But according to Comey, there was no affect of any of this that translates to votes cast for trump in the upset states that he won.

He said there was no manipulation of actual votes. They can't (and it's also not their job) gauge the impact of their influence on the votes.
Fine then.

Russia influenced the election, that is what they do all the time.

Russia did not win the election for Trump, nor did they hack the election.

And even then, what are we going to do about it? There isn't anything anyone can do about punishing Russia over this. This isn't war-worthy unlike some people's notions of it.
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 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2017-03-21 10:56:26
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Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Russia tries to influence its the electoral process ALL THE TIME. This isn't anything new. But according to Comey, there was no affect of any of this that translates to votes cast for trump in the upset states that he won.

He said there was no manipulation of actual votes. They can't (and it's also not their job) gauge the impact of their influence on the votes.
This is what you're holding onto?

Russia influenced our election and because they did it wasn't fair?

If that's the standard then every election since 1912 is fraudulent. How are you gonna disprove me?
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 10:58:37
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Russia tries to influence its the electoral process ALL THE TIME. This isn't anything new. But according to Comey, there was no affect of any of this that translates to votes cast for trump in the upset states that he won.

He said there was no manipulation of actual votes. They can't (and it's also not their job) gauge the impact of their influence on the votes.
This is what you're holding onto?

Russia influenced our election and because they did it wasn't fair?

If that's the standard then every election since 1912 is fraudulent. How are you gonna disprove me?
And not just our elections. Every single democratic election is fraudulent because some other country has had some sort of influence over it, and the United States is generally the one who pushed that influence.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2017-03-21 10:59:38
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Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Zerowone these are 2 distinct subjects. They did investigate the potential hacking of actual voting machines, but that other question is about influencing the voting process and not hacking the voting machines.


I'm aware of that but this not a confusion on my behalf:

The question and request for clarification is in regard to this tweet the president :

HTTPS://twitter.com/POTUS/status/843865267008755360

Read his tweet watch the video that is attached then get back to me about being confused.
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2017-03-21 11:00:14
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Russia tries to influence its the electoral process ALL THE TIME. This isn't anything new. But according to Comey, there was no affect of any of this that translates to votes cast for trump in the upset states that he won.

He said there was no manipulation of actual votes. They can't (and it's also not their job) gauge the impact of their influence on the votes.
Fine then.

Russia influenced the election, that is what they do all the time.

Russia did not win the election for Trump, nor did they hack the election.

And even then, what are we going to do about it? There isn't anything anyone can do about punishing Russia over this. This isn't war-worthy unlike some people's notions of it.
But you see KN, you can't prove Russian influence didn't do something nobody knows about that ended up tipping the scales.

It's the most unreasonable walk of denial they have and it's the only one left.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-03-21 11:00:33
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Ad hominem much and then acted shocked when the favor is returned? Yes yes you do.

Sorry, I was wrong to assume that you quoted the right thing. I should have known how hard it is to hit the quote button on the correct post.

On the other note, you were attacking other posters and it didn't make much sense in context, so yeah, I returned the favor. It kinda works that way in here.
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 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2017-03-21 11:03:36
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Ad hominem much and then acted shocked when the favor is returned? Yes yes you do.

Sorry, I was wrong to assume that you quoted the right thing. I should have known how hard it is to hit the quote button on the correct post.

On the other note, you were attacking other posters and it didn't make much sense in context, so yeah, I returned the favor. It kinda works that way in here.

Not as easy as one would think posting from an iPhone with 10" long hands and sausage fingers.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-03-21 11:05:39
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
But you see KN, you can't prove Russian influence didn't do something nobody knows about that ended up tipping the scales.

It's the most unreasonable walk of denial they have and it's the only one left.

Yeah, the Dems had the full force of the media and their oh so popular president on the campaign trail putting the weight of his legacy on their candidate and they still lost. But minor and incalculable meddling was the real reason that Trump won. Clearly it couldn't have been the fault of She Who Was Chosen.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 11:14:18
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Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
The investigation is not about fraudulent elections.
Now it isn't. That investigation is closed.

The current one is practically a witch hunt. Are they going to bring out a duck to see if Manafont weighs equal to or less than a duck?
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2017-03-21 11:14:33
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Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Russia tries to influence its the electoral process ALL THE TIME. This isn't anything new. But according to Comey, there was no affect of any of this that translates to votes cast for trump in the upset states that he won.

He said there was no manipulation of actual votes. They can't (and it's also not their job) gauge the impact of their influence on the votes.
This is what you're holding onto?

Russia influenced our election and because they did it wasn't fair?

If that's the standard then every election since 1912 is fraudulent. How are you gonna disprove me?

You are spreading misinformation and I am correcting you.
Elections are never fair.

The investigation is not about fraudulent elections.

What is it about then?

Please use as few words as possible.
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By Viciouss 2017-03-21 11:25:42
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Seems like Roger Stone is being set up to be the fall guy for the Trump campaign.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 11:30:19
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Viciouss said: »
Seems like Roger Stone is being set up to be the fall guy for the Trump campaign.
The question is, by whom?

Certainly not Trump.

Media is more likely, but it's hard to make accusations of collusion and/or corruption if the fall guy is being setup by the accusers, and not by the accused.

More than likely, it will backfire on them.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-21 11:49:44
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The Russians Did Not ‘Hack The Election.’ Repeat. The Russians Did Not ‘Hack The Election’

Quote:
After FBI Director James Comey confirmed the existence of an investigation into potential ties between Donald Trump’s campaign and Russia, conspiracy theorists rejoiced. Yet it’s almost certain they won’t get what they desire.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m always rooting for an impeachment. Perhaps the FBI will ferret out emails that show Trump asking Vlad Putin to hack John Podesta’s emails. President Mike Pence would in every way — on trade, foreign policy, entitlements, and just overall competence and non-craziness — offer a more conservative White House than Trump does. Democrats will detest him, just as vigorously, if not more.

But until such a bombshell hits, or we learn that Roger Stone was colluding with WikiLeaks (of course, then many in the media will then retroactively transform the bizarre Stone into the most vital man in Trump’s campaign), let’s remember that nowhere does anything that happened in 2016 come close to affirming the specious contention that Russians “hacked the election.”

As T. Becket Adams pointed out in the Washington Examiner: “It’s not incorrect to say Russia likely meddled in or interfered with in the presidential election, based on what the U.S. intelligence community has reported. It’s terribly misleading, on the other hand, to say Russia hacked the election.”

It’s probably more accurate to contend that Russia tried but failed to interfere in the election. Even so, this is unlikely to stop liberal journalists like David Corn or Glenn Thrush at The New York Times from framing the stories in this way, which attempts to undermine the legitimacy of the entire system.

And it’s too late to walk outsized expectations back to a reasonable place. When Rep. Devin Nunes asked Comey whether the vote tallies in several states had been tampered with, a number of journalists remarked that the question was obvious misdirection. No one was making that allegation, they claimed. Well, when noted liberal writers allege there is “evidence that Russian intelligence carried out a successful plan to pick the government of the United States” and keep repeating the “election was hacked,” their readers start to get ridiculous ideas. This is why an Economist/YouGov poll found that 52 percent of Democrats now believe Russia “tampered with vote tallies.”

Even if Trump associates colluded with Russia, there is still no evidence that foreigners influenced the voting public enough to matter.

The Russian hacking of Podesta’s emails is not an election stolen. It is a blatant attempt at interfering in American politics, and should be condemned by everyone. Yet the idea that the proletariat in Pennsylvania or Indiana were so troubled when finding out about the internal conflicts of Democratic Party factions that they cast their vote for Trump is a fantasy.

Has anyone polled American voters and asked how many of them know who John Podesta is? I imagine the number is miniscule. Hillary lost Wisconsin because she didn’t campaign there, or because voters have never liked her very much, or because she was corrupt, or most likely, they had enough of Democrats for the time being. Republicans, after all, have been winning lots of elections since 2010 — more than 1,000 seats — and many conservatives ran ahead of Trump in their own states. Certainly, this is a far more plausible explanation for Trump’s victory than Russian “hacking.”

Also, simply because Russia wanted Trump to win is not evidence of wrongdoing. “‘Putin’s preferred party’ is not a badge to wear with pride,” tweets David Frum. It certainly isn’t. It’s a shame that we haven’t been holding the line on an autocratic Russia and unfortunate that we’ve done so little to curb cyberespionage. Still, for now, Trump has only taken a troubling political position. Everyone who cared to pay attention to the election understood his views on the issue (as much as one can). Republican voters, as it turns out, were more troubled by the rise of Islamism than they are about Russians.

In the end, though, being Putin’s preferred party is no worse than being the Iranian mullahs’ preferred party. And who doubts that the Chicoms favored a Clinton presidency over a Trump one? So, please, let’s stop pretending that your preferred candidate was the bane of tyrants everywhere when we have an accounting of her business foundation’s dealings with tyrants and theocrats. No one is innocent.

Democrats, though, will never have closure on 2016. If the FBI director doesn’t find an impeachable offense, which seems likely, they will continue to feel (or act) like the election was stolen. Remember when Paul Krugman, like many on the Left, claimed the FBI “rigged the election?”

Noah Rothman lays out the consequences in Commentary:

Quote:
In 2016, Democrats imprudently sought to transform the FBI director into a political actor and then feigned shock when his actions had political consequences. In the process, they helped rob America’s chief investigatory officer of his credibility. If the investigation into Donald Trump’s campaign follows a trajectory similar to the investigation into Clinton, the FBI will sap the White House of political authority and legitimacy. The expectation, however, that this investigation will result in the discovery of impeachable offenses that would justify congressional prosecution seems at this stage to be a false hope.

The anger towards Comey has only been tempered by the possibility that his Trump investigation will yield impeachable results. Yet Democrats are already asking: After testifying in front of Congress about Clinton, why didn’t Comey inform the American public about the Trump investigation?

Well, the Hillary investigations had been exhausted, and Comey reported his findings to a congressional committee looking into charges that she illegally transmitted top-secret documents, set up an server to circumvent transparency, then lied about it and attempted to cover it up. Comey confirmed all of those charges, but tacked on a standard of intent, allowing her to escape legal accountability. Comey then promised to report back to Congress if any new evidence emerged.

As it turned out a Hillary staffer was possession of emails that were supposed to be handed over to the FBI, and her husband, who was being investigated for carrying on with an underaged girl, had access to them. So Comey reported the finding to Congress with a letter. This was Hillary’s doing, not the Russians’ and not the FBI’s.

But you might also remember, back in the innocent days of late 2016, we were often lectured that the presence of an investigation didn’t automatically demonstrate guilt. As of yet, there is no evidence of anyone in the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians — much less Trump himself. Maybe, one day, there will be. Even if that day comes, it still doesn’t mean the election was “hacked.”

Emphasis added.
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2017-03-21 11:52:44
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The investigation is to see if anyone in Trumps campaign collided with Russian officials to influence the election... dismissing this outright because you think other governments meddle in elections all the time is silly... its important to find out if this actually happened and you know wait to see if they can find any evidence of it...

It's fine to demand an investigation into this but not to judge before it's over...
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By Viciouss 2017-03-21 12:03:53
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I didn't even understand the line of questioning about voter machines being hacked, nobody was even talking about that. It was put to rest almost immediately after the election, just like the voter fraud conspiracy theory.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-03-21 12:07:33
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
The investigation is to see if anyone in Trumps campaign collided with Russian officials

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