Random Politics & Religion #21

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Random Politics & Religion #21
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By Ruaumoko 2017-03-20 20:18:46
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Candlejack said: »
Garuda.Chanti said: »
Candlejack said: »
...
2. tRump went and committed an impeachable act....
As much as I hate to inform you outrageous =/= impeachable. Nor does ill considered. Nor does stupid.
Libelous behavior from the president falls under impeachable, however.
Show the law.
I'll do some digging to find it, but here's an article for the time being.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-06/trump-s-wiretap-tweets-raise-risk-of-impeachment

Quote:
The basic premise of the First Amendment is that truth should defeat her opposite number. “Let her and Falsehood grapple,” wrote the poet and politician John Milton, “who ever knew Truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter?”

But this rather optimistic adage only accounts for speech and debate between citizens. It doesn’t apply to accusations made by the government. Those are something altogether different.

In a rule of law society, government allegations of criminal activity must be followed by proof and prosecution. If not, the government is ruling by innuendo.

Shadowy dictatorships can do that because there is no need for proof. Democracies can’t.

Thus, an accusation by a president isn’t like an accusation leveled by one private citizen against another. It’s about more than factual truth or carelessness.

The government’s special responsibility has two bases. One is that you can’t sue the government for false and defamatory speech. If I accused Obama of wiretapping my phone, he could sue me for libel. If my statement was knowingly false, I’d have to pay up. On the other hand, if the president makes the same statement, he can’t be sued in his official capacity. And a private libel suit mostly likely wouldn’t go anywhere against a sitting president -- for good reason, because the president shouldn’t be encumbered by lawsuits while in office.

The second reason the government has to be careful about making unprovable allegations is that its bully pulpit is greater than any other. True, as an ex-president, Obama can defend himself publicly and has plenty of access to the news media. But even he doesn’t have the audience that Trump now has. And essentially any other citizen would have far less capacity to mount a defense than Obama.

For these reasons, it’s a mistake to say simply that Trump’s accusation against Obama is protected by the First Amendment.

False and defamatory speech isn’t protected by the First Amendment.

And an allegation of potentially criminal misconduct made without evidence is itself a form of serious misconduct by the government official who makes it.

When candidate Trump said Hillary Clinton was a criminal who belonged in prison, he was exposing himself to a libel suit. And the suit might not have succeeded, because Trump could have said he was making a political argument rather than an allegation of fact.

But when President Trump accuses Obama of an act that would have been impeachable and possibly criminal, that’s something much more serious than libel. If it isn’t true or provable, it’s misconduct by the highest official of the executive branch.

How is such misconduct by an official to be addressed? There’s a common-law tort of malicious prosecution, but that probably doesn’t apply when the government official has no intention to prosecute.

The answer is that the constitutional remedy for presidential misconduct is impeachment.

That would have been the correct remedy if Obama had “ordered” a wiretap of the Republican presidential candidate’s phones. The president has no such legal authority. Only a court can order a domestic wiretap, and that only after a showing of probable cause by the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 20:19:07
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Donny if you keep coming up with philosophical ideas we might have to give you a new nickname !
 
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 20:26:32
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Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
fonewear said: »
Donny if you keep coming up with philosophical ideas we might have to give you a new nickname !
What do you mean, "keep coming up?"
That's been my schtick for like a decade.

Donny has many layers like an onion !

I'm not always thinking about the Simpsons just 99% of the time. I have other references...just they require more thinking !
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2017-03-20 20:37:14
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Ooooook Shrek.
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By 2017-03-20 20:38:46
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-20 20:38:54
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Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
fonewear said: »
Donny if you keep coming up with philosophical ideas we might have to give you a new nickname !
What do you mean, "keep coming up?"
That's been my schtick for like a decade.
Good, your nickname is now The Schtick™
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 20:40:01
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bismarck.Josiahfk said: »
fonewear said: »
Donny if you keep coming up with philosophical ideas we might have to give you a new nickname !
What do you mean, "keep coming up?"
That's been my schtick for like a decade.
Good, your nickname is now The Schtick™

While I"ll be damned it's the Schticky !
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-20 20:42:57
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Ruaumoko said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Candlejack said: »
Garuda.Chanti said: »
Candlejack said: »
...
2. tRump went and committed an impeachable act....
As much as I hate to inform you outrageous =/= impeachable. Nor does ill considered. Nor does stupid.
Libelous behavior from the president falls under impeachable, however.
Show the law.
I'll do some digging to find it, but here's an article for the time being.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-06/trump-s-wiretap-tweets-raise-risk-of-impeachment

Quote:
The basic premise of the First Amendment is that truth should defeat her opposite number. “Let her and Falsehood grapple,” wrote the poet and politician John Milton, “who ever knew Truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter?”

But this rather optimistic adage only accounts for speech and debate between citizens. It doesn’t apply to accusations made by the government. Those are something altogether different.

In a rule of law society, government allegations of criminal activity must be followed by proof and prosecution. If not, the government is ruling by innuendo.

Shadowy dictatorships can do that because there is no need for proof. Democracies can’t.

Thus, an accusation by a president isn’t like an accusation leveled by one private citizen against another. It’s about more than factual truth or carelessness.

The government’s special responsibility has two bases. One is that you can’t sue the government for false and defamatory speech. If I accused Obama of wiretapping my phone, he could sue me for libel. If my statement was knowingly false, I’d have to pay up. On the other hand, if the president makes the same statement, he can’t be sued in his official capacity. And a private libel suit mostly likely wouldn’t go anywhere against a sitting president -- for good reason, because the president shouldn’t be encumbered by lawsuits while in office.

The second reason the government has to be careful about making unprovable allegations is that its bully pulpit is greater than any other. True, as an ex-president, Obama can defend himself publicly and has plenty of access to the news media. But even he doesn’t have the audience that Trump now has. And essentially any other citizen would have far less capacity to mount a defense than Obama.

For these reasons, it’s a mistake to say simply that Trump’s accusation against Obama is protected by the First Amendment.

False and defamatory speech isn’t protected by the First Amendment.

And an allegation of potentially criminal misconduct made without evidence is itself a form of serious misconduct by the government official who makes it.

When candidate Trump said Hillary Clinton was a criminal who belonged in prison, he was exposing himself to a libel suit. And the suit might not have succeeded, because Trump could have said he was making a political argument rather than an allegation of fact.

But when President Trump accuses Obama of an act that would have been impeachable and possibly criminal, that’s something much more serious than libel. If it isn’t true or provable, it’s misconduct by the highest official of the executive branch.

How is such misconduct by an official to be addressed? There’s a common-law tort of malicious prosecution, but that probably doesn’t apply when the government official has no intention to prosecute.

The answer is that the constitutional remedy for presidential misconduct is impeachment.

That would have been the correct remedy if Obama had “ordered” a wiretap of the Republican presidential candidate’s phones. The president has no such legal authority. Only a court can order a domestic wiretap, and that only after a showing of probable cause by the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Won't hold water due to all the slander and libel Obama committed against Bush.

Just another example of Trump doing what Obama did before.
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 20:43:55
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I've studied libel laws...before it was cool !
 
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 Shiva.Shruiken
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By Shiva.Shruiken 2017-03-20 20:57:50
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Won't hold water due to all the slander and libel Obama committed against Bush.

Just another example of Trump doing what Obama did before.

Genuinely asking, can you give me some examples of this libel and slander Obama committed against Bush? I can't imagine it's anything remotely as severe as Trump's accusation that Obama wiretapped and spied on him Nixon-style.

Not that I think he will, should, or even could be impeached for it.
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:01:44
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If if's and but's were candy and nuts...something something...Trump won't get impeached.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2017-03-20 21:11:24
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Yeah, apparently some people forget that there's an actual process for impeaching a president. You simply can't will it into being because you found a minor law detail that kinda sorta maybe if you really try and super duper believe in the heart of the cards and pray that the Republican House and Senate will actually carry this through and actually get the votes Santa Clause is real by the way why are you still reading this I'm clearly rambling what's up Fone?
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:12:25
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If Trump gets impeached I will personally deliver a You were right Hallmark card to Candlejack.
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:14:39
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Maybe if we can get Monica back in the white house and Trump gets a divorce...short of that I don't see it happening !
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By Shiva.Shruiken 2017-03-20 21:14:42
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i can't believe you just quoted yu-gi-oh
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:15:28
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Shiva.Shruiken said: »
i can't believe you just quoted yu-gi-oh

I can't believe it's not butter !
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:17:20
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I was wrong before turns out that hooker was telling the truth when she said she was a cop...
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-20 21:24:06
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Shiva.Shruiken said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Won't hold water due to all the slander and libel Obama committed against Bush.

Just another example of Trump doing what Obama did before.

Genuinely asking, can you give me some examples of this libel and slander Obama committed against Bush? I can't imagine it's anything remotely as severe as Trump's accusation that Obama wiretapped and spied on him Nixon-style.

Not that I think he will, should, or even could be impeached for it.
Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Example 4

Example 5

Example 6

Example 7

Example 8

Let's also note that he also blamed an entire company for his misdeads.

No Republicans are exempt from his outright libel.

Even foreign nations are subject to his libel.

So, yes, Obama has committed libel and slander against many private citizens, even foreign nations, and nobody impeached him or even talked about impeaching him.

I highly doubt that Trump will even be fazed by this.
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:26:00
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Trump can't be impeached anyways he is Teflon Don !
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-03-20 21:26:04
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Josiahkf said: »
purity of fire
I got just the level 37 wizard to do it too.

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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:30:03
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The Ukraine isn't that Russia now ?
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By Shiva.Shruiken 2017-03-20 21:35:10
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Got a good laugh at example 8 "Obama blames Bush for Fast and Furious"... like if Obama blamed the entire film franchise and Vin Diesel's career on Bush.

I'll read through 'em during/after these basketball games, thanks for the thorough response.
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:36:14
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Shiva.Shruiken said: »
Got a good laugh at example 8 "Obama blames Bush for Fast and Furious"... like if Obama blamed the entire film franchise and Vin Diesel's career on Bush.

I'll read through 'em during/after these basketball games, thanks for the thorough response.

It took me a minute to remember what Fast and Furious was about and not that damn car movie ! lol
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:37:52
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Fast and Furious 9 we've officially run out of things to jump cars over !
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By Shiva.Shruiken 2017-03-20 21:45:26
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Fast and Furious 10: Paul Walker's Alive !
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By fonewear 2017-03-20 21:48:19
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To be fair when the first movie came out it wasn't terrible but I didn't see the need to make 8 damn movies...
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