Ou Craft Items - Pricing

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Ou craft items - pricing
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-16 11:21:00
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I only edited #4, which I added after I posted, but before you responded. I didn't change anything else. It may have been you quoted my response while I was typing. I didn't go back and re-edit.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-03-16 11:23:23
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Canteens have no value if the person has no group otherwise. They aren't obligated to stay once they are able to find a group. On most servers, you don't have consistant shouts and someone who doesn't have exceptional jobs and gear will not have an easy time getting a group.

Going, getting cards, and getting some drops beats getting nothing and not having a group. This is pretty evident by the amount of people who went to just card farm before the card farm path existed.
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-16 11:29:26
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
clearlyamule said: »
I fail to see how any of that addresses what I said...

I agreed that there are more players who can now do it with 18man setup than mules going around, but that question gives an incomplete answer to the actual point I was making prior, which was that the extra bodies create more competition for lotting on boss floor.
Does it really though? If those people are only going to the Ou runs that you wouldn't be doing if they weren't there to get the KI is that really more competition?

Quote:
Do you not have any friends who are undergeared and get invited to events to take what they can benefit from without taking the top gear from the event? When you do vagary, do you ask if anyone needs clears without offering them the gil drops? If you do Pakecet for a jovian body, do you ask if anyone needs the ve.body or other less desirable drops and wants to come?

The difference is that with Pakecet, you're probably paying for the pop item. In omen, the extra person is paying with 5 Key items, and his own Canteen. When was the last time you saw a group, shout group, merc group, any group offer to kill an NM for someone, but required them to supply their own pops, but locked out of certain items, but the rest of the group benefits from the best items? You can bring extra bodies along to reap rewards. But how exactly are you enforcing that they can't lot on the boss items when they are supplying the pop themselves? I've never seen it.[/quote]
Define best drops. I've definitely seen money drops locked out but gear still goes to the payer/popper.

I see 2 situations here. 1. The player provides KIs they farmed on their own in which you could call them legitimate popper and likely they will get priority on gear and groups will do this for extra chance at Ou on top of the extras they got from using mules. 2. The player had those KIs farmed for them in which case unless you had enough mules to fill the alliance it's still giving you extra runs and regardless it's hard to call them the popper then so could definitely see locking more stuff out/free lot the gear. Meanwhile both situations the mercers get the money drop for their troubles
 Caitsith.Mahayaya
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2017-03-16 11:32:39
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Hahah, to the people who think SE hasn't thought this through, maybe they have - and the answer is more mules = more income.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-16 11:35:20
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Well I agree. I included the canteen because its a 20 hour wait. If he's not actively doing Omen, then yes, his canteen has no value. If he is doing Omen, he could be using it to farm cards solo or with another group. The only thing he gains from joining a Ou group is a Glassy item. That may or may not be a good tradeoff for 5 KIs (he would have had at least 5 chances to get Glassy items prior, though).

I don't see a weaker player tagging along with a great group just to get 5 KIs, and then not be able to get anything from the Ou fight. He'd make more just selling the popset, IMO
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-03-16 11:41:18
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If a weaker player tagged along with a good group to get 5 KIs and whatever other benefit from the 5 runs then decided to sell the popset instead of popping for them.. don't think they're tagging along another 5 runs lol
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-16 11:43:01
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clearlyamule said: »
Does it really though? If those people are only going to the Ou runs that you wouldn't be doing if they weren't there to get the KI is that really more competition?

Yes it is, because you could just as easily bring an extra mule instead of another player. If you bring another player, and he's using his account with his set of KIs, how exactly can you enforce that he not get anything from Ou floor? If the argument is "well, we helped you get the KIs", then his argument can be "my storage fee is lotting from Ou floor". I just don't see how adding an extra "holder" is different from bringing an alt, especially if you're stipulating that he's here to pop the boss and nothing else. You can completely bypass that headache by just bringing an alt.

Quote:
Hahah, to the people who think SE hasn't thought this through, maybe they have - and the answer is more mules = more income.

In agreement here.
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-16 11:43:09
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Well I agree. I included the canteen because its a 20 hour wait. If he's not actively doing Omen, then yes, his canteen has no value. If he is doing Omen, he could be using it to farm cards solo or with another group. The only thing he gains from joining a Ou group is a Glassy item. That may or may not be a good tradeoff for 5 KIs (he would have had at least 5 chances to get Glassy items prior, though).

I don't see a weaker player tagging along with a great group just to get 5 KIs, and then not be able to get anything from the Ou fight. He'd make more just selling the popset, IMO
But he's still getting cards this way... unless you assuming people rushing to boss. Arguably this might be better card farming for the player since they can go on a job they might not have normally been able to bring and farm cards effectively.

But yes I suppose if you did farm the KIs for them they could just run off and try to get Ou merced with another group. I fully expect to see some player warning threads/shouts
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-16 11:45:36
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Does it really though? If those people are only going to the Ou runs that you wouldn't be doing if they weren't there to get the KI is that really more competition?

Yes it is, because you could just as easily bring an extra mule instead of another player. If you bring another player, and he's using his account with his set of KIs, how exactly can you enforce that he not get anything from Ou floor? If the argument is "well, we helped you get the KIs", then his argument can be "my storage fee is lotting from Ou floor". I just don't see how adding an extra "holder" is different from bringing an alt, especially if you're stipulating that he's here to pop the boss and nothing else. You can completely bypass that headache by just bringing an alt.
Just how many alternate account extra mules with omen access do you think people have? Also if you'd quote the rest you'd see I address all that in the rest of the post that you left out
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 Fenrir.Svens
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By Fenrir.Svens 2017-03-16 11:53:01
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It's possible the main group could let the extra lot on items/gear from the 5 KI bosses as well, save for maybe crafting mats. At this point, I'm sure many groups that have been doing Omen religiously have most of the gear they want save for 1 or 2 pieces excluding bodies. I would gladly give up an Ou pop set for +3 upgrades and gear from all the mid and final bosses if I didn't have my own group. Even for Ou runs, extras can stay and get cards before the final warp, so canteens shouldn't go to waste with excessive stockpiling.

Even if bringing in multiple extras would cause lotting competition for various items, the group could implement /seacom as well. And depending on the life of this content and number of extras, you could start to get Ou gear as well once the main group starts capping out. This is helped by the fact that only one extra fights Ou each time, so there would be less competition compared to the KI bosses.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-16 12:01:53
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clearlyamule said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Does it really though? If those people are only going to the Ou runs that you wouldn't be doing if they weren't there to get the KI is that really more competition?

Yes it is, because you could just as easily bring an extra mule instead of another player. If you bring another player, and he's using his account with his set of KIs, how exactly can you enforce that he not get anything from Ou floor? If the argument is "well, we helped you get the KIs", then his argument can be "my storage fee is lotting from Ou floor". I just don't see how adding an extra "holder" is different from bringing an alt, especially if you're stipulating that he's here to pop the boss and nothing else. You can completely bypass that headache by just bringing an alt.
Just how many alternate account extra mules with omen access do you think people have? Also if you'd quote the rest you'd see I address all that in the rest of the post that you left out

I'm just going by what people on other threads have pointed out, that bringing mules is the wtg. People wouldn't be posting their Ou experiences and just arbitrarily mention that if they weren't already doing it.

I've never seen a popper pay someone to merc an item for them, supply pops, and the money drops goes to the merc. That's getting paid twice.

Outside of the horrible formatting, #1 is reasonable. #2 They are using their account to store items for the main group, but being locked out of the main boss drops. If this is by mutual agreement (i.e. i'll kill 5 omen bosses, you keep everything, but Ou is all ours) then its a done deal.

But the hypothetical instances of "adding more players for more runs" isn't even consistent with how players operate nowadays. You have more players that solo VW ambuscade and other events with their 'alts' as opposed to teaming up. Looking through the Omen Findings thread, I've yet to see anyone mention they are bringing other players who suck for storage of KIs. Not saying it isn't happening, but they are saying they are bringing extra characters for the chance to get an extra run. My entire post was based on this idea, not "well you can just add sucky players to your runs and have them store the item for you in exchange for main boss drops". That concept hasn't been introduced. You have threads on here selling normal Omen drops for groups that are doing nothing more than farming bodies atm. Unless its a friend you're making an agreement with, it's unlikely.
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-16 12:36:04
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Does it really though? If those people are only going to the Ou runs that you wouldn't be doing if they weren't there to get the KI is that really more competition?

Yes it is, because you could just as easily bring an extra mule instead of another player. If you bring another player, and he's using his account with his set of KIs, how exactly can you enforce that he not get anything from Ou floor? If the argument is "well, we helped you get the KIs", then his argument can be "my storage fee is lotting from Ou floor". I just don't see how adding an extra "holder" is different from bringing an alt, especially if you're stipulating that he's here to pop the boss and nothing else. You can completely bypass that headache by just bringing an alt.
Just how many alternate account extra mules with omen access do you think people have? Also if you'd quote the rest you'd see I address all that in the rest of the post that you left out

I'm just going by what people on other threads have pointed out, that bringing mules is the wtg. People wouldn't be posting their Ou experiences and just arbitrarily mention that if they weren't already doing it.

I've never seen a popper pay someone to merc an item for them, supply pops, and the money drops goes to the merc. That's getting paid twice.

Outside of the horrible formatting, #1 is reasonable. #2 They are using their account to store items for the main group, but being locked out of the main boss drops. If this is by mutual agreement (i.e. i'll kill 5 omen bosses, you keep everything, but Ou is all ours) then its a done deal.

But the hypothetical instances of "adding more players for more runs" isn't even consistent with how players operate nowadays. You have more players that solo VW ambuscade and other events with their 'alts' as opposed to teaming up. Looking through the Omen Findings thread, I've yet to see anyone mention they are bringing other players who suck for storage of KIs. Not saying it isn't happening, but they are saying they are bringing extra characters for the chance to get an extra run. My entire post was based on this idea, not "well you can just add sucky players to your runs and have them store the item for you in exchange for main boss drops". That concept hasn't been introduced. You have threads on here selling normal Omen drops for groups that are doing nothing more than farming bodies atm. Unless its a friend you're making an agreement with, it's unlikely.
You are ignoring the question. I didn't ask if people had alts that could do this I was asking how many you thought people have. Having a couple of alts to bring in perfectly reasonable assumption... filling your alliance with alts cmon that's pretty unrealistic.

Um where the hell did I say they were going to provide their own pops and get the money drops and pay to have it killed? Hint I didn't. That said being paid twice is a misnomer it's more like a total compensation that includes drops and gil in that situation which may be reasonable depending on the relative going prices of the various things

Kind of apples to oranges comparisons there. VW people solo because it's like any old content farming and not much benefit to trying to gather people together... that said if 2 people happen to be there I often see them team up. Ambuscade is a tad different since it's not only easier to get alts there but party capped at 6 so there is a real chance an alt would get left out if you group with too many and lose points. Also both those events don't require pops nor are time gated. Yes we haven't seen the whole bring along for KI farm yet... but we've also barely had enough time for people to farm a single KI set and just figuring out how that works. Pretty early to be calling it wont happen. We also didn't have omen mercs for a few weeks doesn't mean they wont happen.

That said bringing a person to farm KIs over the course of several days just for Ou is somewhat annoying and as you mentioned leaves opportunity to ditch so I see it far more likely separate deals being made like selling regular boss runs for KI and non bodies... which is basically already being done. Then they can do whatever they want with the KIs such as asking the group to do Ou for say priority on 1 gear drop, or pay them to merc it for all the drops or find another group to do it for similar deal. Actually wonder how much I could charge for just clears for KIs...
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-16 13:03:52
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Ugh, I'm going to have to break this down for you. Will be my last trying to explain, as mod will probably lock this thread.

Quote:
You are ignoring the question. I didn't ask if people had alts that could do this I was asking how many you thought people have. Having a couple of alts to bring in perfectly reasonable assumption... filling your alliance with alts cmon that's pretty unrealistic.

I am not ignoring the question. Whether I think people have 2 or 5 alts is irrelevant. I could just as easily fire back and say "how many good LSs have enough sucky players in it to fill their alliance? cmon that's pretty unrealistic". You are asking me to make a guess. Also, just like you don't like me to take something you said and misapply it, don't do it to me. I never once said "filling your alliance with alts". If you can find that comment, quote me. For argument's sake, you could make a case that finding 12 extra bodies to come for KIs may be just as challenging as bringing your alts. Your argument can be made both ways.

Quote:
Um where the hell did I say they were going to provide their own pops and get the money drops and pay to have it killed? Hint I didn't. That said being paid twice is a misnomer it's more like a total compensation that includes drops and gil in that situation which may be reasonable depending on the relative going prices of the various things

You actually completely misread what I wrote. That's not what I said.

Me:
Quote:
I've never seen a popper pay someone to merc an item for them, supply pops, and the money drops goes to the merc. That's getting paid twice.

You didn't read properly. I am saying I haven't seen anyone pay for a merc, pay or supply their own pops, and then be told they are not able to lot on the "money items". Either your experience is unique, or you're lying. This is what being "paid twice" is: initial payment for merc service + money item for kill.

The entire discussion is based around the extra player being the popper. If you're going to use the example of a merc, we're assuming they are the popper, providing their own pops. I don't know what you're confusing here.

Quote:
Kind of apples to oranges comparisons there. VW people solo because it's like any old content farming and not much benefit to trying to gather people together... that said if 2 people happen to be there I often see them team up. Ambuscade is a tad different since it's not only easier to get alts there but party capped at 6 so there is a real chance an alt would get left out if you group with too many and lose points

I mentioned VW to highlight the fact that people would indeed level and gear a character for the content in order to have potential for more money. Its the concept I am referring to, not the event itself. People have inherited quite a few accounts over time, so it's not unreasonable to think people have multiples that are already content ready. Or that they could gear up within a short time and work on it if they wanted to.

I'll exit stage left here. Not facing a topic ban for arguing just because you're dense.

(edit for spelling)
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-16 14:32:05
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Ugh, I'm going to have to break this down for you. Will be my last trying to explain, as mod will probably lock this thread.

Quote:
You are ignoring the question. I didn't ask if people had alts that could do this I was asking how many you thought people have. Having a couple of alts to bring in perfectly reasonable assumption... filling your alliance with alts cmon that's pretty unrealistic.

I am not ignoring the question. Whether I think people have 2 or 5 alts is irrelevant. I could just as easily fire back and say "how many good LSs have enough sucky players in it to fill their alliance? cmon that's pretty unrealistic". You are asking me to make a guess. Also, just like you don't like me to take something you said and misapply it, don't do it to me. I never once said "filling your alliance with alts". If you can find that comment, quote me. For argument's sake, you could make a case that finding 12 extra bodies to come for KIs may be just as challenging as bringing your alts. Your argument can be made both ways.
Still kind of missing the point here. Also not saying you said that. It's the logical progression from that line of thought though but apparently I need to spell it out. You are positing that people will just bring alts instead of a random player. The thing is though it's only an instead if you can fill the rest of the alliance alts. The exact number of random n00bs or alts is completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters in determining whether bringing the sucky players kicks out an alt is if you have already filled the alliance with alts. So it becomes a question of do you think there will be many groups with that many alts. It doesn't have to be either or but can be brings alts AND n00bs

Quote:
Um where the hell did I say they were going to provide their own pops and get the money drops and pay to have it killed? Hint I didn't. That said being paid twice is a misnomer it's more like a total compensation that includes drops and gil in that situation which may be reasonable depending on the relative going prices of the various things

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
You actually completely misread what I wrote. That's not what I said.

Me:
Quote:
I've never seen a popper pay someone to merc an item for them, supply pops, and the money drops goes to the merc. That's getting paid twice.

You didn't read properly. I am saying I haven't seen anyone pay for a merc, pay or supply their own pops, and then be told they are not able to lot on the "money items". Either your experience is unique, or you're lying. This is what being "paid twice" is: initial payment for merc service + money item for kill.

The entire discussion is based around the extra player being the popper. If you're going to use the example of a merc, we're assuming they are the popper, providing their own pops. I don't know what you're confusing here.
The first part is my bad. Was editing stuff around forgot the not in front of money drops... As far as it happening it depends on total costs and it's again somewhat misleading to think of it as separate payments vice 2 forms of payment for the same thing. Or another way to look at it is you are paying for 1 item. That doesn't mean the other items are the group getting paid twice. Depending on the value of the pop this is sometimes reasonable. I only suggested crafting because it would be something that mercers could always use, has decently less value then the gear, and would be a decent lower the upfront costs to the person paying. Alternatively they could also just combine the worth of all drops and offer that. It's not too different than that Asuran omen merc thread where they sell the equipment for like 50 iirc and cards for 10. Pay for 1 get 1 and group gets the rest pay more for 2 get 2. That said that wasn't what I had said in my previously purposed situations and the whole bringing your own KIs is off topic for the whole brining people along for KI farming. Unless you are referring the person who got brought along as a popper... but that doesn't really work they farmed it for you and not too awful different then them providing the KI unless of course they charged for the clear KIs which is another potential avenue.

Quote:
Kind of apples to oranges comparisons there. VW people solo because it's like any old content farming and not much benefit to trying to gather people together... that said if 2 people happen to be there I often see them team up. Ambuscade is a tad different since it's not only easier to get alts there but party capped at 6 so there is a real chance an alt would get left out if you group with too many and lose points

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I mentioned VW to highlight the fact that people would indeed level and gear a character for the content in order to have potential for more money. Its the concept I am referring to, not the event itself. People have inherited quite a few accounts over time, so it's not unreasonable to think people have multiples that are already content ready. Or that they could gear up within a short time and work on it if they wanted to.

I'll exit stage left here. Not facing a topic ban for arguing just because you're dense.

(edit for spelling)
Technically you mentioned vw in reference to soloing vice teaming up. But yes some of that does imply actually getting alts there. But it's an example that also has other facets to it. No one is denying that people will make or get alts and progress them thru the game enough to gain certain advantages. I myself tribox regularly and use some same account mule for a few things. But as mentioned hurdle for getting to/doing those other events is lower and well 18 is just a lot of alts. Like I wouldn't doubt someone like Comeatmebro might not have a party or 2 but most I know only have 1-2 different alts. And well in both cases a lot of those are actually somewhat geared up and used so instead of soaking up KIs you could be running them separately with more actual leeches. In theory you can have a pt of people each with 2 useless alts that have access to fill the alliance but I foresee most groups still having at least a few free slots

Regardless I'm curious how/if this will effect the prices. More alts will certainly benefit those people but likely increase supply and lower prices. But if it takes off mercing would also potentially increase supply and in similar fashion lower the cost to fight so could see good merc groups also doing quite well too. If the event had more depth and player base wasn't abysmal I could even see some groups focused on farming/sell KI clears but unable to do Ou while others do Ou almost everyday. Which does better remains to be seen though either way I think initial estimates on costs might end up being on the high side as we employ more efficient KI farming means.
 Odin.Speedyjim
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By Odin.Speedyjim 2017-03-16 14:38:14
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I love me a good thread-high jacking circle jerk! Err, wait..
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By anik 2017-03-16 14:56:44
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Why argue about this?
SE thought of a way to entice the remaining population to reopen/open new mule accounts for increased revenue. Your fight is with SE.