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Random Politics & Religion #05
 Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2016-05-14 14:40:47
Often end up in discussions with people here about immigration, usually without them realizing I am an immigrant until well past the point of embarrassment, ending in "oh but you are OK!/I don't mean you!"
For some reason, I highly doubt you are an illegal immigrant. You know the entire reason for the conversation. If by chance you are an illegal immigrant, then yes, you are the problem and I do mean you. Otherwise, since you came here legally and didn't break the law, then welcome to the USA.
This isn't really difficult. Well, let's discount the fact that I'm speaking of my experience as an immigrant to Denmark. Since I am a US citizen.
But when we speak of illegal immigrants in the US, illegal immigration wouldn't really be a hot-button topic if people actually complied with employment laws and regulations. So it is somewhat funny to hear people talk about adding more safeguards rather than simply enforcing those at hand.
And let's not even digress towards historical requirements towards immigrants (which somewhat borders on absurd).
So, if we can clarify: legal immigration to the US is entirely OK (hi H1-B!), but illegal immigration (to be entirely crass, hi farm employees/construction workers/Home Depot pickup-people) is simply non-kosher?
Got to pick your battles. Fighting on multiple fronts is never a good strategy and things will never get done if you want them all done at the same time. Which is why nothing gets done in D.C.
Pick an argument and stick with it. Which argument?
That in general, indigenous (which is a fun concept for the US) populations may tend to dislike immigrants, or that disincentiving the reason for immigration (by increased enforcement of existing employment laws) would reduce the desire for immigration?
Let's not go into the multi-decade cultural barrage at placing the US as the place to make dreams come true.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-14 14:41:00
Wait, it's the government. Everything involving the government is abused as hell.
It's almost like being 8 in a candy store and no adults are around.
/steals a lollipop.
By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 14:41:47
and hell if I know what Clinton has
Nobody does.. Plus it'll change next week anyways to make a nich group happy.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-14 14:42:14
So, if we can clarify: legal immigration to the US is entirely OK (hi H1-B!), but illegal immigration (to be entirely crass, hi farm employees/construction workers/Home Depot pickup-people) is simply non-kosher?
If only it were so cut and dry.
When we get away from the petty rhetoric that gets thrown back and forth over immigration, it ends up that people on both sides tend to agree that we need stronger border enforcement and an easier path for legal immigration. The hows and the whats and the who end up causing contention, but I think we'd get a lot further than focusing on the extremes of 100% open borders and "shoot 'em on sight!" xenophobia. So, in your opinion, where do the political candidates lie on the issues?
I'd argue that Trump is pushing the "shoot em on sight" button, and hell if I know what Clinton has, but probably not that.
Who knows what Clinton thinks. It doesn't even matter, because her position will change to whatever she thinks will earn her the most votes. And Trump.... Well, he speaks for himself. Screw 'em both. Clinton is easy to figure out.
She's for whatever gets her the most votes. As long as she is president, she can have a stand for anything.
If there's anyone in this election that's a shill, it's her.
(incoming "your sexist!" accusation)
[+]
By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 14:44:33
Which argument?
That in general, indigenous (which is a fun concept for the US) populations may tend to dislike immigrants, or that disincentiving the reason for immigration (by increased enforcement of existing employment laws) would reduce the desire for immigration?
Let's not go into the multi-decade cultural barrage at placing the US as the place to make dreams come true.
Hard telling with you since I don't think you can tell the difference between immigration and illegal immigration to begin with.
By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 14:48:18
(incoming "your sexist!" accusation)
That's one thing I actually have not been hearing from Clinton supporters. TBH I don't really hear Clinton supporters defending her at all. They would rather change the subject to anything but her.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-14 14:49:37
(incoming "your sexist!" accusation)
That's one thing I actually have not been hearing from Clinton supporters. TBH I don't really hear Clinton supporters defending her at all. They would rather change the subject to anything but her. They are waiting for Clinton to take the nomination.
If they do it too early, they run the risk of labeling Sander's supporters as sexist too.
Too many hurt feels in the democrat party that way. Some may end up defecting to the evil Republican side.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2016-05-14 14:51:37
So, if we can clarify: legal immigration to the US is entirely OK (hi H1-B!), but illegal immigration (to be entirely crass, hi farm employees/construction workers/Home Depot pickup-people) is simply non-kosher?
If only it were so cut and dry.
When we get away from the petty rhetoric that gets thrown back and forth over immigration, it ends up that people on both sides tend to agree that we need stronger border enforcement and an easier path for legal immigration. The hows and the whats and the who end up causing contention, but I think we'd get a lot further than focusing on the extremes of 100% open borders and "shoot 'em on sight!" xenophobia. Rational people will agree you need some moderation of both.
The political candidates (both the current presidential, and others) typically don't like to deal in non-polarizing items. So how do we cope with such a simply stupid political process?
One concept is that educating the voting public leaves the voters less susceptible to demagoguery. Which unfortunately, is less effective than one may hope to believe (yay humanity!). The other option is to restrict voting (which has historically been the concept), but was explicitly waived in the US.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2016-05-14 14:53:52
Which argument?
That in general, indigenous (which is a fun concept for the US) populations may tend to dislike immigrants, or that disincentiving the reason for immigration (by increased enforcement of existing employment laws) would reduce the desire for immigration?
Let's not go into the multi-decade cultural barrage at placing the US as the place to make dreams come true.
Hard telling with you since I don't think you can tell the difference between immigration and illegal immigration to begin with. I'm pretty sure an actual immigrant can tell the difference between legal and illegal immigration (regardless of where the immigration is with regards to) far better than someone who sits on their *** in their country of origin.
But hey. Let's not be personal attacking in here.
 Phoenix.Xantavia
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 449
By Phoenix.Xantavia 2016-05-14 14:57:49
(incoming "your sexist!" accusation)
That's one thing I actually have not been hearing from Clinton supporters. TBH I don't really hear Clinton supporters defending her at all. They would rather change the subject to anything but her. That's because everybody is saving their sexist outrage and accusations for those who aren't thrilled with the new Ghostbusters movie. They have to pick their battle: politics vs. entertainment.
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By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 14:59:24
Which argument?
That in general, indigenous (which is a fun concept for the US) populations may tend to dislike immigrants, or that disincentiving the reason for immigration (by increased enforcement of existing employment laws) would reduce the desire for immigration?
Let's not go into the multi-decade cultural barrage at placing the US as the place to make dreams come true.
Hard telling with you since I don't think you can tell the difference between immigration and illegal immigration to begin with. I'm pretty sure an actual immigrant can tell the difference between legal and illegal immigration (regardless of where the immigration is with regards to) far better than someone who sits on their *** in their country of origin.
But hey. Let's not be personal attacking in here.
I am not personal attacking you. You have shown in two posts now that you refuse to use the words Illegal Immigration when they should be used. It's like you either do not know the difference or refuse to acknowledge the difference. Either way assuming I don't understand the difference between the two because I "sit on my ***" is a personal attack and shows that you are unable to have an adult conversation.
Administrator
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By Terlet Sangria 2016-05-14 15:02:21
I need to write up what a personal attack looks like, apparently.
Server: Asura
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-14 15:03:32
I need to write up what a personal attack looks like, apparently. You smell like dog doo-doo!
By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 15:04:32
I need to write up what a personal attack looks like, apparently.
Depending how easily people are butt hurt your post could be considered a personal attack.
Administrator
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By Terlet Sangria 2016-05-14 15:10:19
I need to write up what a personal attack looks like, apparently.
Depending how easily people are butt hurt your post could be considered a personal attack.
Implying that people will be butthurt is a personal attack
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2016-05-14 15:10:35
I need to write up what a personal attack looks like, apparently.
Depending how easily people are butt hurt your post could be considered a personal attack. I need to write up what a personal attack looks like, apparently.
Depending how easily people are butt hurt your post could be considered a personal attack. Or, an observation, or opinion. Since it doesn't directly address anyone, and at most indirectly addresses you and me.
Administrator
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By Terlet Sangria 2016-05-14 15:13:47
Or, an observation, or opinion. Since it doesn't directly address anyone, and at most indirectly addresses you and me.
Honestly, I'd been thinking I needed to do it since the other day; seeing you two dance around the definition of it just reminded me that it's probably important to have some clarity around it.
It'll never be an exact science or anything, but given that it's more or less the single biggest problem in P+R, it probably needs a little more attention.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2016-05-14 15:17:37
Would you prefer tango, flamingo, swing (east or west), or whirling dervish-esque style dancing? In P&R, we aim to please.
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By Terlet Sangria 2016-05-14 15:18:54
Would you prefer tango, flamingo, swing (east or west), or whirling dervish-esque style dancing? In P&R, we aim to please.
It's P+R, so it should probably be something more combatative.
Capoeira!
[+]
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Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-14 15:20:14
Or, an observation, or opinion. Since it doesn't directly address anyone, and at most indirectly addresses you and me.
Honestly, I'd been thinking I needed to do it since the other day; seeing you two dance around the definition of it just reminded me that it's probably important to have some clarity around it.
It'll never be an exact science or anything, but given that it's more or less the single biggest problem in P+R, it probably needs a little more attention. Honestly, if it addresses you, and not your words, it's a personal attack.
"Your idea is stupid" is not a personal attack. "You are stupid" is.
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13643
By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-05-14 15:22:04
Or, an observation, or opinion. Since it doesn't directly address anyone, and at most indirectly addresses you and me.
Honestly, I'd been thinking I needed to do it since the other day; seeing you two dance around the definition of it just reminded me that it's probably important to have some clarity around it.
It'll never be an exact science or anything, but given that it's more or less the single biggest problem in P+R, it probably needs a little more attention.
Not a bad idea.... The whole thing is obviously subjective, but there does seem to be an unbalanced enforcing of it. I'm not saying that it's due to bias necessarily, but it's often due to how the attacks are worded. there are a number of posters in here who attack people consistently but do it in a veiled enough manner that they can weasel out of it when confronted.
"It's not an insult, it's an observation."
"I wasn't referring to you specifically (even though I quoted you when making the insult)."
Etc.
Server: Asura
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-05-14 15:22:12
Also, for the love of god, don't do the macarena!
Mariachi, ok, as long as it's appropriate. But never the macarena.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2016-05-14 15:23:25
Would you prefer tango, flamingo, swing (east or west), or whirling dervish-esque style dancing? In P&R, we aim to please.
It's P+R, so it should probably be something more combatative.
Capoeira! Having sparred against said practitioners, let me emphatically say *** that noise.
[+]
Administrator
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Posts: 109
By Terlet Sangria 2016-05-14 15:27:30
Honestly, if it addresses you, and not your words, it's a personal attack.
"Your idea is stupid" is not a personal attack. "You are stupid" is.
Pretty much, but...
Or, an observation, or opinion. Since it doesn't directly address anyone, and at most indirectly addresses you and me.
Honestly, I'd been thinking I needed to do it since the other day; seeing you two dance around the definition of it just reminded me that it's probably important to have some clarity around it.
It'll never be an exact science or anything, but given that it's more or less the single biggest problem in P+R, it probably needs a little more attention.
Not a bad idea.... The whole thing is obviously subjective, but there does seem to be an unbalanced enforcing of it. I'm not saying that it's due to bias necessarily, but it's often due to how the attacks are worded. there are a number of posters in here who attack people consistently but do it in a veiled enough manner that they can weasel out of it when confronted.
"It's not an insult, it's an observation."
"I wasn't referring to you specifically (even though I quoted you when making the insult)."
Etc.
Yeah, the current enforcement tends to disfavor our... blunter posters. I'll try to get something a little more concrete.
Bahamut.Milamber
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3692
By Bahamut.Milamber 2016-05-14 15:36:29
Honestly, if it addresses you, and not your words, it's a personal attack.
"Your idea is stupid" is not a personal attack. "You are stupid" is.
Pretty much, but...
Or, an observation, or opinion. Since it doesn't directly address anyone, and at most indirectly addresses you and me.
Honestly, I'd been thinking I needed to do it since the other day; seeing you two dance around the definition of it just reminded me that it's probably important to have some clarity around it.
It'll never be an exact science or anything, but given that it's more or less the single biggest problem in P+R, it probably needs a little more attention.
Not a bad idea.... The whole thing is obviously subjective, but there does seem to be an unbalanced enforcing of it. I'm not saying that it's due to bias necessarily, but it's often due to how the attacks are worded. there are a number of posters in here who attack people consistently but do it in a veiled enough manner that they can weasel out of it when confronted.
"It's not an insult, it's an observation."
"I wasn't referring to you specifically (even though I quoted you when making the insult)."
Etc.
Yeah, the current enforcement tends to disfavor our... blunter posters. I'll try to get something a little more concrete. As long as I didn't personally attack all capoeria practitioners (because who has time for that!).
By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 16:59:55
Hard telling with you since I don't think you can tell the difference
This isn't a personal attack, he has demonstrated the inability to tell the difference. It is blunt, but it could be far worse.
far better than someone who sits on their *** Flat out personal attack. It is barely even an insinuation if you wanted to go that route as a defense.
 Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-05-14 17:01:46
he has demonstrated the inability to tell the difference That's your opinion. A very dubious one at that.
By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 17:05:02
A legal immigrant comparing himself to illegal ones and basically saying there is no deference is asinine to say the least. Then to say I don't understand because he assumes I have no experience with illegal immigrants is just asking for deterioration in the conversation.
[+]
By Altimaomega 2016-05-14 17:09:22
he has demonstrated the inability to tell the difference That's your opinion. A very dubious one at that.
This quote has absolutely nothing to do with what I said about Illegal Immigration.
Often end up in discussions with people here about immigration, usually without them realizing I am an immigrant until well past the point of embarrassment, ending in "oh but you are OK!/I don't mean you!"
There are stereotypes of immigrants which people fear. How those relate to reality is rarely considered important.
It's not dependent on my opinion and would be to use your word, dubious to say otherwise.
 Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2016-05-14 23:30:08
You can't attack someone with words. The constant whining here is making it hardly worth anyone's time.
Node 285
STOP! Hammertime?
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