? Reisenjima T4s
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Reisenjima T4s
What the hell are you on?
Stiltz said: » In another six months, Schah will be replaced by something more difficult Because I wish but I wouldn't hold my breath for it if I were you. Asura.Sechs said: » Stiltz said: » In another six months, Schah will be replaced by something more difficult Because I wish but I wouldn't hold my breath for it if I were you. And unless there is a change, that "something more difficult" will be beaten within a few days by a pack of AC SMN's. Then the next thing will be beaten using that same method also. NM difficulty doesn't matter when you can ignore fight mechanics.
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Careful now,
SE could be actually smart and use the mechanics that they already have in place to eliminate certain strategies on certain content, Things like high crit rate resist (makes bow ranger useless) or damage reduction based on range from monster (They could technically flip that), specific damage type DT, or even roll out Pet resistance? We already see some wacky things come out of Ambuscade, such as geomancy immunity and other shiftiness. The only real thing holding back any innovation in that sense is that it is an old game, with few (3? 6?) people maintaining it, with little to no content foreseeable over the next year. Alternatively, they could do with more master trials. Asura.Saevel said: » And unless there is a change, that "something more difficult" will be beaten within a few days by a pack of AC SMN's. Then the next thing will be beaten using that same method also. NM difficulty doesn't matter when you can ignore fight mechanics. If it were a situation of a couple of fights where with a certain specific combination of jobs/jas/stuff you can ignore fight mechanics and turn it into a 30 seconds Zerg, well it wouldn't be good but then again I wouldn't care that much. Especially so if we're talking about old content that you can rush through several, several, several months after its original release and when there's new stuff in their place. I bet a large number of players would feel the same. But when that applies to pretty much anything in game then uhm no, clearly something must be fixed imho. Ambuscade is a special case because the content only lasts a month and thus SE doesn't need to worry about long term balance or impact. Take the Frog, originally designed to respond to high damage with an AoE move of such obscene damage that it would be instant death, except we figured out a loop hole that made him piss easy. Imagine if he was a super boss that dropped highly desirable gear. Now SE would of had to patch him if that was the case, but since it's ambuscade they just let it expire and remember not to make that mistake for the next one. They experiment a lot and take risks because nothing will have an impact of longer then one month.
The problem in AC SMN's situation is it's become a First Order Optimal Strategy (FOOS), meaning it's simultaneously incredibly simply to execute with power results and therefor becomes the default for all content. To do anything without using AC SMN's would effectively be a waste of time. In order to balance this via content, every single piece of content created from here until the end of the game would have to be designed to combat and defeat SMN AC zerging. Or they could tone down the power of multiple SMN's under the effect of AC. The second fix is far easier then the first and much less likely to produce unintended results. The fundamental impasse is that current abusers of AC SMN don't want to stop abusing it, they want to keep abusing it as an easy mode win, any recommendation they make will revolve around having no effect on their JP button. In order for the game to continue being relatively healthy, SMN AC zerging needs to stop. These two positions are incompatible with each other. There is nothing that will fix the situation that won't piss off and disappoint the current batch of people abusing it. Jumeya said: » Careful now, SE could be actually smart and use the mechanics that they already have in place to eliminate certain strategies on certain content, I'd like to see a fight tower defense like, completely ignoring damage. The NM would have a negative regen and would die in 10 minutes. If someone dies, he warps. Let him pop some adds so DD aren't completely useless and we could have a fun fight :) /fantasycrafting I think people don't appreciate the niche that SE has given Monk, probably because it isn't very strategically valuable at the moment and maybe never will be for people who really theorycraft endgame.
Monk caps subtle blow 1/2 mostly by accident and has access to Penance. If you have two Monks, you can keep Penance up full time and ultimately feed ~4x less TP/hit than a normally geared BLU/WAR. On top of that, MNK attacks slower, has fewer attacks/round, and has higher base damage. Just napkin mathing it and guessing attack/round numbers, Penance-maintaining Monks feed something like 3x less TP than the nearest competitor (either NIN or non-Koga SAM) under favorable conditions. I don't have much experience actually bringing Monk to stuff and I have absolutely no experience bringing two Monks, but I know that TP spam rate notably drops in Omen when we use NIN + BLU instead of BLUx2. NIN feeds about 35% less TP than BLU (assuming the BLU has a fully enhanced Auspice). I bet the difference with two Monks would be dramatic. Monk's niche might be as a DD that slows down fights and reduces TP move frequency, essentially compensating for having a bad back line. So it loses the parse and its DPS is worse, but you also don't see back to back TP moves.
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: » I think people don't appreciate the niche that SE has given Monk, probably because it isn't very strategically valuable at the moment and maybe never will be for people who really theorycraft endgame. Monk caps subtle blow 1/2 mostly by accident and has access to Penance. If you have two Monks, you can keep Penance up full time and ultimately feed ~4x less TP/hit than a normally geared BLU/WAR. On top of that, MNK attacks slower, has fewer attacks/round, and has higher base damage. Just napkin mathing it and guessing attack/round numbers, Penance-maintaining Monks feed something like 3x less TP than the nearest competitor (either NIN or non-Koga SAM) under favorable conditions. I don't have much experience actually bringing Monk to stuff and I have absolutely no experience bringing two Monks, but I know that TP spam rate notably drops in Omen when we use NIN + BLU instead of BLUx2. NIN feeds about 35% less TP than BLU (assuming the BLU has a fully enhanced Auspice). I bet the difference with two Monks would be dramatic. Monk's niche might be as a DD that slows down fights and reduces TP move frequency, essentially compensating for having a bad back line. So it loses the parse and its DPS is worse, but you also don't see back to back TP moves. Yeah, my TP set right now is:
Including the 35% Subtle Blow base and even assuming no Auspice, I'm at 49% Subtle Blow and 25% Subtle Blow II while wearing the best DD pieces available to me according to the spreadsheet. dAGI, Subtle Blow, and Penance are all multiplicative. You end up with a minimum of: .5*.25*.65 = 8.125% original TP fed I kind of doubt that Yurin stacks with Penance (one probably overwrites the other), but that would knock it down to a minimum of 6.875% if it did.
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So you pretty much get about 12.3times more attacks in before it even counts as 1 attack to the mob? couple that with a well geared stunner (Probably only need one at this point which means you could get more people on it) and the mob won't do anything at all depending on resists to stun
Lakshmi.Byrth said: » I think people don't appreciate the niche that SE has given Monk, probably because it isn't very strategically valuable at the moment and maybe never will be for people who really theorycraft endgame. Monk caps subtle blow 1/2 mostly by accident and has access to Penance. If you have two Monks, you can keep Penance up full time and ultimately feed ~4x less TP/hit than a normally geared BLU/WAR. On top of that, MNK attacks slower, has fewer attacks/round, and has higher base damage. Just napkin mathing it and guessing attack/round numbers, Penance-maintaining Monks feed something like 3x less TP than the nearest competitor (either NIN or non-Koga SAM) under favorable conditions. I don't have much experience actually bringing Monk to stuff and I have absolutely no experience bringing two Monks, but I know that TP spam rate notably drops in Omen when we use NIN + BLU instead of BLUx2. NIN feeds about 35% less TP than BLU (assuming the BLU has a fully enhanced Auspice). I bet the difference with two Monks would be dramatic. Monk's niche might be as a DD that slows down fights and reduces TP move frequency, essentially compensating for having a bad back line. So it loses the parse and its DPS is worse, but you also don't see back to back TP moves. That would only be important to content before level 99. Now all NM's have ridiculous TP regain effect that gets stronger as the NM's HP goes down. The only way to slow down an NM's TP gain is to use DRK's SP to drain it. SE *** over every single Subtle *** in the game when they made potent regain a standard feature for MB's. there is still alot of content that doesn't regain, since most people spam like nuts with jobs that don't have or have only a extremely little amount of subtle blow, noone really notices, honestly i reduce personal depending on the fight(Not all fights) and opt for SC burn over time because the dmg goes nuts at the 5th and 6th WS/SC(If you can reach that high) than WS burn because it buys time between the mobs WSs
Every man for their own strats I suppose Odin.Horu said: » there is still alot of content that doesn't regain Anything worth discussing here has massive regain. All boss's since Voidwatch have had regain and SE only ramped up the values with the introduction of "Mega Hard" Delve boss's pre iLevel. After iLevel SE never reduced that regain and it's been a standard feature ever since. So while your Tier 1 NM's probably don't have regain, your T3's and 4's definitely do. indeed so, however along with the addition of regain is the mobs hp scaling, things like kirin II and WoC or other such NMs you most certainly don't use SC style, however there are still some T3-4 mobs that even tho they have regain, limiting tp gain makes a ton of difference, of cause that excludings the ones that when it hits it 2hr it goes AoE nuts, in which case TP feed in anyways makes no difference and PD or GEO WS burn pretty much is the only way
Odin.Horu said: » indeed so, however along with the addition of regain is the mobs hp scaling, things like kirin II and WoC or other such NMs you most certainly don't use SC style, however there are still some T3-4 mobs that even tho they have regain, limiting tp gain makes a ton of difference, of cause that excludings the ones that when it hits it 2hr it goes AoE nuts, in which case TP feed in anyways makes no difference and PD or GEO WS burn pretty much is the only way There is no T3~4 NM that will not spam TP moves in between spells as the fight goes on. Subtle Blow builds aren't anything new, they used to be extremely useful at 75 and into Abyssea. At the end of Abyssea and into Voidwatch SE started equipping all NM's with potent regain, at first it was just under 25% HP then it's become at all HP levels with under 25% being brew level regain. As an example I've taken Delve MB Shark and kited him on RUN when it wiped most of the party at 75% (noob pugs) and guess what, every few seconds it would use a TP move. Six DD's beating on it vs no one hitting it and you still had the exact same TP move times of once every 8~11 seconds. This is how NM AI generally works If TP > 1000 use TP Move Wait 2~3s Cast spell Wait 3s If TP > 1000 use TP Move rinse and repeat. The important part is that casting spell, they generally don't have a lot of fast cast so by the time they've finished casting and waiting their 3s time, they've regained enough TP to do a TP move. That's where the once per 8~11s time comes from, 2~3s after TP move, the couple of seconds for casting and the 3s wait after the cast. The best way to reduce their TP move usage is casting Addle II or Pinning to make them take longer casting and thus lengthening the time in between usages. Then kill them as quickly as possible using the best DPS you have access to. The less time it's alive the less TP moves it'll use. Yeah SE *** everyone when they handed out regain like candy to Mega Boss's. My experiences with monsters like Glassy Craver and the difference between NIN+BLU and BLUx2 seem to contradict your assertions.
Subtle blow has an effect, but the question is more along the lines of "why use it if I can kill faster and equally safely without it?" Regain goes up as HP goes down. Omen mid bosses very noticeably have little/no TP regain pre 75% HP. Kite them bellow there, and they fit right into the expected WS frequency of ~9, 6 and 3 seconds as HP goes down.
This is quite different then T3/4s, who TP regardless if anyone is hitting it, even when just being held/blocked and parried nearly every attack.
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: » My experiences with monsters like Glassy Craver and the difference between NIN+BLU and BLUx2 seem to contradict your assertions. Asura.Saevel said: » There is no T3~4 NM that will not spam TP moves in between spells as the fight goes on Asura.Saevel said: » The best way to reduce their TP move usage is casting Addle II or Pinning to make them take longer casting and thus lengthening the time in between usages. Asura.Saevel said: » Anything worth discussing here has massive regain. All boss's since Voidwatch have had regain and SE only ramped up the values with the introduction of "Mega Hard" Delve boss's pre iLevel. After iLevel SE never reduced that regain and it's been a standard feature ever since. So while your Tier 1 NM's probably don't have regain, your T3's and 4's definitely do. None of the T3's cast spells and they are just sub-boss's, I'm talking about megaboss's, the ones your actually aiming to kill. Fenrir.Jumeya said: » Regain goes up as HP goes down. Omen mid bosses very noticeably have little/no TP regain pre 75% HP. Kite them bellow there, and they fit right into the expected WS frequency of ~9, 6 and 3 seconds as HP goes down. This is quite different then T3/4s, who TP regardless if anyone is hitting it, even when just being held/blocked and parried nearly every attack. It's a very noticeable pattern to anyone who's tanked it before during a recover. TP Move 2~3s wait Spell 3s wait TP Move 2~3 wait Spell 3s wait They can't use a TP move while their casting a spell or during the 3s cooldown after regardless of the amount of TP they have. Everything Byrth said is 100% accurate for regular mobs and many sub boss's. Delve sub boss's, T1 and some T2 Escha NM's, the Omen mid boss's, and so forth. If they don't cast spells then minimizing their TP gain will typically reduce the moves they do as very few of those mobs have regain. Everything above that has the typical SE "*** you guys" design. 100-75% HP: Little to Moderate Regain 75-50% HP: Moderate to Strong Regain 50-25% HP: Moderate to Strong Regain 25-0%: OMFG Primeval Brew Regain I get that you've said it and are willing to keep repeating it, but I think your experiences are colored by using a combination of jobs that always ceiling out mob TP frequency.
Erinys and Onychophora, for instance, are high tier NMs without notable regain. I've killed both without seeing a single TP move. I'm not saying "no high tier endgame monsters have regain," but I also don't think the number is 100% and I suspect it might even be below 50%. Even among those that have it, I'm not sure it's quite as strong as you're describing. For instance, I haven't seen evidence that Omen Caturae have overpowering regain. In our first Ou last night, Ou was averaging 1-2 attack rounds between spell/TP moves during the 95-15% melee zerg (2 DRK as DDs). We pulled out at 15% to SV buff before the final zerg and he went 6 attack rounds after his last spell without using a TP move. In the same low-hp pause, our second Ou went 6 attack rounds, cast magic, and then did 2 more attack rounds before using a TP move. So it does matter whether or not you're meleeing monsters, which means extreme subtle blow (a la MNK) might matter as well.
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I can say I definitely noticed a ~33% difference in TP moves use frequency on Gin within Omen.
I did many runs, but 5 in particular are the ones I'm talking of: 2x Runs were made with 2x NINs as DDs (DDx2, Tank, Supportx2, WHM) 3x Runs were made with 2x THFs. In the first scenario Gin was using TP moves roughly at a 33% slower rate. Very approximate estimation but the difference was quite noticeable and given the multiple instances in which I clearly experienced this, I'd say it's no coincidence. I couldn't explain this and was discussing it with my friends yesterday but after reading Byrth's post I think it might be related to what he's saying. Aside from that though the real question becomes another: Does it matter? And also Byrth I like the scenario you're trying to promote with that "niche" you want to put MNK in, but the damage difference is so big I'm not sure it would ever be worth it, nor that such was the plan behind SE's behaviour concerning MNK and its role in current meta. tested this on many mobs with DRK Absorb-tp.
But regardless, I don't think we have any issues surviving omen bosses even if they spam TP moves. If that is in fact MNK's niche, its one nobody cares about. Now a plague added effect on MNK's melee attacks would be something worth CONSIDERING. but even then, I doubt people would give up fast, efficient kills for long fights with much less tp moves. Not unless they released Bosses that had TP moves that could instantly change the course of battle, something as extreme as Khim's fulmination at Lv.75 cap. But it would also need to be unstunnable. Yeah, I think we don't use it because it isn't that useful and most of the players who post on forums have a capable enough back line that they're not struggling to beat Glassy Craver. If we can beat it with non-MNK setups, why handicap ourselves to beat it slower?
That said, I've never really tried it. That and aren't there blu spells that have plague effect?
Lakshmi.Byrth said: » Yeah, I think we don't use it because it isn't that useful and most of the players who post on forums have a capable enough back line that they're not struggling to beat Glassy Craver. If we can beat it with non-MNK setups, why handicap ourselves to beat it slower? That said, I've never really tried it. I mean, you could also just cap out Subtle Blow with Monk's Roll too if you wanted to use up a Roll on Subtle Blow. I think we won't be seeing much use of that meta though until they start releasing more Subtle Blow II gear, because it DOES have potential when you max out dAGI and when they start releasing more mobs than just Omen Megas that don't have insane Regain/Store TP/Save TP. I mean you could bring your 2-handed DD jobs from feeding mobs like 180ish TP down to a paltry 30-40 TP which is a huge difference. But when they ***like Regain, it just undermines all that. Lakshmi.Byrth said: » I get that you've said it and are willing to keep repeating it, but I think your experiences are colored by using a combination of jobs that always ceiling out mob TP frequency. Erinys and Onychophora, for instance, are high tier NMs without notable regain. I've killed both without seeing a single TP move. I'm not saying "no high tier endgame monsters have regain," but I also don't think the number is 100% and I suspect it might even be below 50%. Even among those that have it, I'm not sure it's quite as strong as you're describing. For instance, I haven't seen evidence that Omen Caturae have overpowering regain. In our first Ou last night, Ou was averaging 1-2 attack rounds between spell/TP moves during the 95-15% melee zerg (2 DRK as DDs). We pulled out at 15% to SV buff before the final zerg and he went 6 attack rounds after his last spell without using a TP move. In the same low-hp pause, our second Ou went 6 attack rounds, cast magic, and then did 2 more attack rounds before using a TP move. So it does matter whether or not you're meleeing monsters, which means extreme subtle blow (a la MNK) might matter as well. But my ls was going out of it's way to control tp gain with 2 nin/drk tanks standing decently far so nm had to walk and same nms people would claim had massive regain would never use a move while the blms rested for minutes on end. But some of them if given enough time would use a move after only being fed 1-2 spells worth of tp. We ended up thinking some might of just had massive stp or much lower thresholds to use moves and maybe some small regain |
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