The only complaints against SMN is the obscene damage they can do under Conduit.
No sane person is calling for nerfs to any other aspect.
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Reisenjima T4s
Sylph.Cherche said: » The only complaints against SMN is the obscene damage they can do under Conduit. No sane person is calling for nerfs to any other aspect. To be fair, they have been able to do max damage on Kirin and SR mobs for a long time before AF AC burning was a thing. Right WS to open close with SMN and bam 99999 then add in SCH with t1 and t2 and Same thing with less reliance on Melee. This is just another step in the same pathing of those other 2. AF AC spam BPR pair with Mewing to assist in lower chance of loss of avatar and potential wipe. Next would be able to pair 2 diff avatars to spam BPR and make Skillchains with them while under the AF AC and enhance the damage further. I see no reason to nerf it. Next they will bring back KC Dark to replace any nerfing they do. Ragnarok.Ejiin said: » The only argument I can understand is that SE might go too far and MNK the ***out of SMN, but leaving conduit the way it is would be far more harmful to the future of the game. And like a few people have said already, any group worth a damn will still be able to get clears without crutching so hard on SMN. Yeah, like that isn't reason enough by itself! Its not like SE don't have a track-record of screwing up and needing to make multiple remedial adjustments, or simply leaving a job dead in the water for years. Even if I agreed with the argument that SMN is overpowered (which I don't, for the record), so what? Its not like other jobs haven't spent far longer as top dogs and noone said d!ck about that being a problem. Why do hybrid jobs like BLU and COR deal better damage than pure DD's like MNK? Why were GEO debuffs so much stronger than everything else for years? Was it fair that BLM's bursting off SCH skillchains basically sidelined DD's on the hardest content to a point of near irrelevance? "Balance" in this game, is, was, and shall forever be, a myth. So suggesting that Conduit staying as-is, is somehow going to kill the game is laughable to me. Sorry, I just don't see how anyone can make that case with any sort of real conviction. SMN is not a brain-dead "win button". Conduit zerging is not some kind of flawless strategy, because in all candour, if it was we'd probably use it just for sheer convenience. But it isn't, and we don't. Outside of very specifically engineered circumstances, AC isn't that impressive. Crippling its utility in all situations in order to prevent is purported "abuse" seems somewhat excessive to me, and being truthful why is using your SP's in a big fight not legit? Seriously, do you feel ashamed when your GEO's pop Bolster? How about when your COR's wild-card back some or all of your abilities to give you an edge? I've put a significant amount of time and gil into SMN, but I'm no veteran. I'm an ex-career MNK who knows what it feels like to be rail-roaded into obsolescence by ill-considered "adjustments". All this being the case, why should I welcome another of my jobs being weakened needlessly in pursuit of an unattainable parity of performance? Sorry. Long post. But the bottom line is this: In the end SE are going to do what they are going to do. As a shell we'll deal with it, and no doubt continue to succeed because we have a lot of good members with many well-geared jobs. However, I highly doubt this game's longevity will be extended or any real benefits will be felt by weakening any job. More likely the reverse as this sort of thing is inevitably going to leave a sour taste in some people's mouths. Bahamut.Boogerballs said: » Asura.Saevel said: » Bahamut.Boogerballs said: » by doing anything to conduit (which most players want), they will make smn useless except for the few unique buffs it gets. That shows your not a career SMN. SMN is pretty bad *** in general, it's got great safe hate free damage. If a SMN's pet gets obliterated by an AoE, they just resummon, no silly timers necessary. They can stay at a very safe distance doing everything they need to do. SMN has both physical and magical attacks that can make a variety of SC's and even the ability to burst for high damage on those skillchains, then their buffs are tossed on top of that with nice layer of Avatars Favor. Players who explore all it's options will find out they can do a ***ton of stuff, it's just not a zerg job, well wasn't a zerg job. You would use SMN for the same reasons you'd use Relic RNG, except in this case if the summoner or their pet dies it's no biggie as weakness doesn't effect them. what do u mean no silly timers? yeah smn can resummon but they are still bound by 20 second BP timers outside of conduit. also if your pet dies, it still takes time to resummon it. that ticks down conduit. i figure 1 second to summon, another to assault + another 4-5 for the dumb *** to get weird with whatever walking path it decides to take. so in reality u have like 23 seconds to spam whatever you can. also what if the pet get enfeebled? thats more time thats added. smn isnt as powerful as you would like to think. still bound by timers and other gay ***like everyone else Why the hell you talking about AC, we discussing SMN outside of AC. If a BST's pet dies they have a 5min Call Beast timer, if a player dies they have a 3~5 min weakness timer, if an Avatar dies then SMN just recasts it in a few seconds. A SMN can literally keep throwing pets at something without worrying about losing buffs. This is why bandwagon jobs are bad, you get players like this that only know the one broken part of a job and completely ignore everything else. 20~40K hate free safe damage every 20s is really nice. It wont' be killing everything in record time, but it will kill your target in a safe predictable manor. Without AC SMN is still incredibly powerful, it would just take skill and knowledge instead of someone copying someone else's lua and spamming one button. Bismarck.Dekusutaa said: » Nerf a bunch of SMNs spamming it, sure, just like how they nerfed Black mages spamming black magic back in the day. I think that's all people really want. There is a reason SE stopped allowing an entire army of BLM's to blow stuff up in seconds. A single SMN going out and doing some crazy cool stuff is fine, it's when they have 3~4 newly bandwagoned SMN's with muled buffs killing CL150's in 30s for hundreds of millions of gil that game balance gets whacked. Leviathan.Brotherhood said: » To be fair, they have been able to do max damage on Kirin and SR mobs for a long time before AF AC burning was a thing. Right WS to open close with SMN and bam 99999 then add in SCH with t1 and t2 and Same thing with less reliance on Melee. SMN used in a strategic way to deal with fight mechanics is fine and balanced, SMN to completely ignore fight mechanics and kill the CL150 target in 30s is not fine. I don't think people monetizing this "easy-mode" method of clearing content is, and should be, a factor in decisions regarding balance changes. But being able to trivialize the current end-game content and by-pass almost all mechanics that create challenge and essentially "fun" needs to be looked at.
Asura.Saevel said: » Bismarck.Dekusutaa said: » Nerf a bunch of SMNs spamming it, sure, just like how they nerfed Black mages spamming black magic back in the day. I think that's all people really want. There is a reason SE stopped allowing an entire army of BLM's to blow stuff up in seconds. A single SMN going out and doing some crazy cool stuff is fine, it's when they have 3~4 newly bandwagoned SMN's with muled buffs killing CL150's in 30s for hundreds of millions of gil that game balance gets whacked. The continued problem with this in particular is that they won't also resolve the issue of HP scaling mechanics being absolute ***. Just balancing fights at 12 or 18 would do alot as well. Asura.Saevel said: » Why the hell you talking about AC, we discussing SMN outside of AC. If a BST's pet dies they have a 5min Call Beast timer, I think WAR should be nerfed. There is no reason you should be able to mindlessly melee zerg things like WOC.
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Asura.Frod said: » Asura.Saevel said: » Bismarck.Dekusutaa said: » Nerf a bunch of SMNs spamming it, sure, just like how they nerfed Black mages spamming black magic back in the day. I think that's all people really want. There is a reason SE stopped allowing an entire army of BLM's to blow stuff up in seconds. A single SMN going out and doing some crazy cool stuff is fine, it's when they have 3~4 newly bandwagoned SMN's with muled buffs killing CL150's in 30s for hundreds of millions of gil that game balance gets whacked. The continued problem with this in particular is that they won't also resolve the issue of HP scaling mechanics being absolute ***. Just balancing fights at 12 or 18 would do alot as well. Sorry man your not gonna deflect this one. This has absolutely ***to do with HP scaling, which is an entirely different issue. This has to do with SMN breaking the game. AC needs nerfed and it's gonna happen. Hopefully it's relatively minor and limited only to SMN AC zerging. You wouldn't happen to be one of those abusing thst exploit now would you. Asura.Saevel said: » Asura.Frod said: » Asura.Saevel said: » Bismarck.Dekusutaa said: » Nerf a bunch of SMNs spamming it, sure, just like how they nerfed Black mages spamming black magic back in the day. I think that's all people really want. There is a reason SE stopped allowing an entire army of BLM's to blow stuff up in seconds. A single SMN going out and doing some crazy cool stuff is fine, it's when they have 3~4 newly bandwagoned SMN's with muled buffs killing CL150's in 30s for hundreds of millions of gil that game balance gets whacked. The continued problem with this in particular is that they won't also resolve the issue of HP scaling mechanics being absolute ***. Just balancing fights at 12 or 18 would do alot as well. Sorry man your not gonna deflect this one. This has absolutely ***to do with HP scaling, which is an entirely different issue. This has to do with SMN breaking the game. AC needs nerfed and it's gonna happen. Hopefully it's relatively minor and limited only to SMN AC zerging. You wouldn't happen to be one of those abusing thst exploit now would you. again, for the 4th or 5th time, PART of the issue is HP scaling mechanics. a group of 6 in this setup has what i view as an unfair advantage over a setup that requires 8 or 10. This works into WHY this tactic is so effective. Also lol at calling this an exploit. An exploit would be breaking established mechanics like breaking mob pathing via kiting (pinning), Salvage dupes, or cuppering thru the floor in dynamis to reset timer. This is merely abusing a strong game mechanic. Double lol at the whiny pissbabies who wanted them to take people's aeonics away for doing this too. Wouldn't call it an exploit, but it is extreme cheese mode.
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Asura.Saevel said: » Leviathan.Brotherhood said: » To be fair, they have been able to do max damage on Kirin and SR mobs for a long time before AF AC burning was a thing. Right WS to open close with SMN and bam 99999 then add in SCH with t1 and t2 and Same thing with less reliance on Melee. SMN used in a strategic way to deal with fight mechanics is fine and balanced, SMN to completely ignore fight mechanics and kill the CL150 target in 30s is not fine. Balance is also based around perspective. What one finds at an imbalance another can view as an viable way to improve their own gameplay. You have 5~10 groups able to do this, say 4 smn each, and everyone else wants a Nerf. I find it far more likely that blu should be nerfed, or rdm or bard or sam or dnc or run. As they are able to do 1 thing other jobs are not able to do and ruin the gameplay of other jobs. War and Drg both have ability to lower special def and make an otherwise tough fight easier. Balance is always in the eye of the beholder. I for one think anything that can hit you for 99999 damage should be nerfed Is this illustrious smn nerf going to be coming at the same time this blu nerf that has been said to be coming any day now?
Interesting point about BLM in earlier pages.. Back in November before the MACC adjustments and GEO nerf, I did see WoC downed in just 2-3 Rapid Death/Comet Volleys in 6-man strategy. I mean it wasn't a 30 second strategy, but it was pretty fast. Fastest time I saw it cleared in 2 minutes.
With MaCC nerfed and GEO nerf, it probably isn't as easy, you would definitely need a RDM in the mix. I can see how the groups using this technique utilized the HP scaling to their advantage.. 6-Man HP is ridiculous in gimping the NM ratio to BLM potential with Idris GEO.. With 6-Man SMN AC burn there is a strong correlation in increased Power to NM HP ratio. Ragnarok.Inx said: » Even if I agreed with the argument that SMN is overpowered (which I don't, for the record), so what? Its not like other jobs haven't spent far longer as top dogs and noone said d!ck about that being a problem. Very few people have an issue with SMN being the best DD in the game. The issue is the gaping, grand canyon sized advantage SMN has over every other DD in that 30 second window during conduit. Not since Kclub DRK has one job had such a massive advantage over the others. Ragnarok.Inx said: » SMN is not a brain-dead "win button". Conduit zerging is not some kind of flawless strategy, because in all candour, if it was we'd probably use it just for sheer convenience. But it isn't, and we don't. Maybe you're doing it wrong. Compared to every conceivable strategy, Schah specifically, conduit burn is far and away the easiest to pull off with the least amount of people to potentially screw something up. Prebuff>Pop>RUN does SP to floor macc>SMN AC>Win. Which of these steps are you claiming to be difficult and on the same level as traditional methods? I'm honestly shocked you're trying to argue it's somehow difficult when you've supposedly done these using different methods since the GEO nerf. Ragnarok.Inx said: » I've put a significant amount of time and gil into SMN, but I'm no veteran. I'm an ex-career MNK who knows what it feels like to be rail-roaded into obsolescence by ill-considered "adjustments". This explains your diehard opposition and why you're ignoring simple math that shows the massive advantage conduit has. Take conduit out of the picture and SMN is still a viable job by your own accounts. Again, no one wants SMN nerf'd into oblivion and rendered unusable, they just want conduit put in check; is that seriously so unreasonable?
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Volt Strike has an attack penalty and SMN has few ways to buff avatar attack, so you also need a "GEO uses Bolstered Frailty, ideally with Idris" step.
Nerfing Frailty would be another way to put SMN back into line with other DDs. If we're really worried about Reisenjima Escha T4s being too easy, this would be the way to go. It's not like they're particularly difficult without using SMN at this point. Rather, it pretty much has to be this way. SMN relies only on debuffs for its damage, so you could theoretically make a group with like 15 summoners, GEO, RUN, and WHM right now. If you just nerf the damage of Volt Strike, that setup remains viable and the bot army just switches to Eclipse Bite or something else. Leviathan.Brotherhood said: » Balance is also based around perspective. No it's not. Damn all the people abusing SMN are salty and grasping here. Guys, it's a broken game mechanic, it wasn't intentional nor part of the overall design. There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of broken game mechanics, it's what power games do, just stop trying to *** everyone. I have taken advantage of multiple game exploits in my time in FFXI, there is no shame in them and I fully understood SE when they eventually fix / nerfed them. Lakshmi.Byrth said: » Volt Strike has an attack penalty and SMN has few ways to buff avatar attack, so you also need a "GEO uses Bolstered Frailty, ideally with Idris" step. Nerfing Frailty would be another way to put SMN back into line with other DDs. If we're really worried about Reisenjima Escha T4s being too easy, this would be the way to go. It's not like they're particularly difficult without using SMN at this point. Rather, it pretty much has to be this way. SMN relies only on debuffs for its damage, so you could theoretically make a group with like 15 summoners, GEO, RUN, and WHM right now. If you just nerf the damage of Volt Strike, that setup remains viable and the bot army just switches to Eclipse Bite or something else. COR. Beast's roll is +45~52% attack bonus, then if they crooked it and don't blow it then you get 54~62.4% attack bonus. You don't need SAM's roll since the avatar can WS every 2s for max damage. And how does nerfing everyone most severely then SMN *fix* SMN? No you nerf AC spam, specifically just make it so that NM's building a resistance to damage / Blood Pacts the same they do magic nukes. Instantly problem solved, no more SMN zerg army face rolling CL150 while SMN keeps it's use in every other aspect. Asura.Syto said: » Interesting point about BLM in earlier pages.. Back in November before the MACC adjustments and GEO nerf, I did see WoC downed in just 2-3 Rapid Death/Comet Volleys in 6-man strategy. I mean it wasn't a 30 second strategy, but it was pretty fast. Fastest time I saw it cleared in 2 minutes HP scaling is an entirely different problem unrelated to SMN zerging. SMN's are trying to deflect to that because they don't want to admit their are abusing an exploit. HP scaling affects multiple strategies and SE adjusting it will do absolutely nothing for the SMN AC spam that's happening. The goal is to have no more SMN AC zerging, anything that doesn't address that isn't a viable solution. Why not extend the magic damage nerf to all WSs, if we're so worried about zerg tactics?
I mean, the patch that made Volt Strike strong was in November of last year. Why is nerfing SMN suddenly the top #1 priority of the community? Is some SMN group stealing your T4 reisenjima sales?
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The salt is strong, weren't you complained that nobody else on Lakshmi use's SMN for kills, this shouldn't hurt you at all. Yeah you exploiting it the same as the rest and don't want that JP button taken away.
Lakshmi.Byrth said: » Why is nerfing SMN suddenly the top #1 priority of the community? Do you seriously need to be told this? That ***is breaking the game bad, like OG RNG or SEBW 93% haste DRK bad. Having one strategy or job that's slightly more powerful in some contexts is fine, having one strategy or job that absolutely trivializes every aspect of game content is extremely bad. And if the rest of you are this dense here's why. Game designers design game content around a specific level of effort vs reward. As the general player population gets more powerful the game designers raise the bar on newer released content, this is known as vertical progression. When something SMN AC zerg, SEBW DRK, or OG RNG happens it trivializes the game difficult and creates an artificially high power level but only for the few who are exploiting it. Because of the gaping chasm in power level, soon every player is forced to either join the exploiters or be left out. This creates a situation where the developers either nerf the broken mechanic exploit, or raise the bar on all future content to require that new power level. The first option piss's off all the exploiters as they cry lakes of salt laden tears, the second forces the entire game to use that exploit and removes all semblance of versatility. There is no third option where you leave the exploiters alone to continue exploiting, you either stop them from exploiting or everyone soon joins them. So yeah SMN's getting nerfed, nothing any exploiter says will change this, no heartfelt plea or acid filled snark will change this. The really interesting part will be how the "new SMN exploiter" community lash's back at the non-exploiter player base for taking their JP button away. Game consistency? Where do you draw the line? Where do you think the game would be today if they did nothing about Kclub DRK and it was still the best method to down the hardest NMs in the game?
All of the arguments I am hearing about why conduit shouldn't be nerfed can be used word for word to also defend why they shouldn't have nerfed Kclub DRK. So what lit the fire under your ***?
SMN has been this way for six months.
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Let's roll back the haste cap so DRG can go insane with 93.75% haste. An attack round every 0.51 seconds sounds extremely well balanced.
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: » All of the arguments I am hearing about why conduit shouldn't be nerfed can be used word for word to also defend why they shouldn't have nerfed Kclub DRK. Everyone who use's a particular exploit always says the same thing about their exploit. Look up the original pre-nerg RNG at 75, when LCF didn't apply to ranged attacks and thus RNG's had a monstrously higher damage advantage while also standing outside of AoE range. Everything was killed with RNG's spamming Slugshot, I used to make a killing selling them silver bullets. KC DRK was bad but SEBW Rune Chopper DRK was obscene, 93% haste OP as ***. To this day DRK's still cry tears about how their Apoc's are just utility weapons instead of 30s zerg machines. Lakshmi.Byrth said: » So what lit the fire under your ***? SMN has been this way for six months. And people were duping alexandrite for over a year before SE fixed that. Originally only a handful of groups were using SMN AC zerg because good SMN's were extremely rare. Then others started trying it and it worked so well that it caught on. Now everyone is trying to build a SMN set to take advantage of this exploit. Six months is about right for a relatively new exploit with rare requirements to catch on. SE is fixing this because the longer an exploit exists the more entitled to that exploit players feel and the worse the impact of fixing that exploit. If you think this is bad now, in another six months it'll be the "Gold Standard" for all content with nobody knowing how to do anything other then SMN AC zerg, fixing it then would create a huge issues as skillsets would need to be relearned. Funny ***
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreaker Quote: An often controversial element of gameplay that unexpectedly trumps all others. Depending upon who you ask, it may or may not be considered cheating. A Game Breaker is a legitimate element of the game used in an unintended way. Quote: Note that this is not another word for 'overpowered'. To be a true game breaker, the ability or character in question must be so hideously unbalanced that it makes people just quit the game in disgust. It's so powerful that there are only two kinds of people: the ones that use it, and the ones that lose to it. That's why people quit in disgust: it destroys all semblance of choice, and quite possibly all semblance of fun. Your available tactics are now limited to one—the one that works That is why developers need to fix mechanic exploits ASAP, they cause too much damage to the meta community around a game. And if any of you actually game a damn, you'd be more concerned about keeping a healthy game environment then abusing the latest mechanics exploit to get yourselves more shinnies +1. Lakshmi.Byrth said: » So what lit the fire under your ***? SMN has been this way for six months. Personally, I've been salty since Delve2 about how OP conduit was, but it felt niche enough and the SMN had to be very well geared with a very good group to pull it off, so didn't really seem to catch on. Kouryu being 6man'd at release by conduit SMN was also an eye-opener, but was just 1 NM out of many so didn't catch on. It was probably Schah being cleared by completely ignoring every mechanic that lit the fire under most people's *** and honestly educated a lot of people about what really goes into the strategy(not much) which led to the current bandwagon. If you want to blame anyone, blame the groups who felt the need to brag and couldn't keep it a secret. This was guaranteed to happen once the wider public was made aware.
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: » Ragnarok.Inx said: » Even if I agreed with the argument that SMN is overpowered (which I don't, for the record), so what? Its not like other jobs haven't spent far longer as top dogs and noone said d!ck about that being a problem. Very few people have an issue with SMN being the best DD in the game. The issue is the gaping, grand canyon sized advantage SMN has over every other DD in that 30 second window during conduit. Not since Kclub DRK has one job had such a massive advantage over the others. Ragnarok.Inx said: » SMN is not a brain-dead "win button". Conduit zerging is not some kind of flawless strategy, because in all candour, if it was we'd probably use it just for sheer convenience. But it isn't, and we don't. Maybe you're doing it wrong. Compared to every conceivable strategy, Schah specifically, conduit burn is far and away the easiest to pull off with the least amount of people to potentially screw something up. Prebuff>Pop>RUN does SP to floor macc>SMN AC>Win. Which of these steps are you claiming to be difficult and on the same level as traditional methods? I'm honestly shocked you're trying to argue it's somehow difficult when you've supposedly done these using different methods since the GEO nerf. Ragnarok.Inx said: » I've put a significant amount of time and gil into SMN, but I'm no veteran. I'm an ex-career MNK who knows what it feels like to be rail-roaded into obsolescence by ill-considered "adjustments". This explains your diehard opposition and why you're ignoring simple math that shows the massive advantage conduit has. Take conduit out of the picture and SMN is still a viable job by your own accounts. Again, no one wants SMN nerf'd into oblivion and rendered unusable, they just want conduit put in check; is that seriously so unreasonable? Well, we're probably "doing it wrong" because our weekly aeonic event is 18+ members and we fight with full-alliances whenever possible. We're not mercing clears, just getting the most people through per pop we can. We also favour PLD tanks (more Burts than Epeo's are available typically due to player/job splits) so for obvious reasons conduit zerging is just not a strat that plays to our strengths. For this reason we never use *just* SMN DD's on anything. Because of this, I'm pretty damn familiar with what SMN performance is like in large, mixed groups where the strategy isn't fixated on a 30-second all-or-nothing burst. And guess what, objectively its not that impressive when removed from the specific conditions of these short zerg strats where literally every other key role is simultaneously burning their SP's to facilitate the result! Question for Inx: For discussions sake let's say amnesia, para, ect were not an issue. You have 3 super geared wars, sams or any other DD that are fully buffed on schah, albumen or any other relevant T4 against 3 smn with aftermath, beast & drachen. Both get frailty and torpor. In your opinion who wins the parse before said mob dies? And will the parse be close?
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