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Michigan Law-EMT Refuse Treatment To Gay People
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-16 14:25:27
I'm starting to get really confused. What is it exactly that you guys are hoping to achieve? It seems like Jet is promoting locker rooms where gender doesn't matter, but I'm assuming we can just put that in the "stupid idea" file. What is your practical solution that doesn't rely on people just getting over it, because that's never going to happen, especially if you're trying to apply it to schools too.
I suppose it would be more practical to just add like 8 more locker rooms and sub-genders. Everyone has to just get over the stupid ideas that some people have, you can just get over people not conforming to your idea of gender and sexuality.
That... didn't answer my question. Anyone else want to take a shot?
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-16 14:30:11
I already did. Maintain the current practice of segregating bathrooms by gender.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-16 14:31:24
That exactly answers your question... the practical solution is for the small group of people who can't get over their hangups to withdraw from society and let the rest of us move on. 2nd best option is to get over it. 3rd is establish half a dozen new "genders"... might as well separate races out, too.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-16 14:34:30
Oh, and if it's practical to provide unisex facilities alongside regular ones then have at it.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-16 14:37:10
That exactly answers your question... the practical solution is for the small group of people who can't get over their hangups to withdraw from society and let the rest of us move on. 2nd best option is to get over it. 3rd is establish half a dozen new "genders"... might as well separate races out, too.
You're really bad at this, and you apparently don't know what the word practical means.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-12-16 14:44:27
I'll be sure the next time I go to the bathroom to check the genitalia of my fellow restroom users.
Seriously, I don't care to look or chat with people when I'm dropping a deuce. You go in, get what you need done and get out with all haste. If someone transgender is in there I give all of zero *** and odds are nor do you. Congratulations on blowing another trivial situation out of proportion. You gents must go wild when a chick enters the bathroom to make sure little Brad doesn't piss all over himself.
Having been in co-ed bathrooms enough, I'm more worried about ladies hogging the sinks to pretty up, denying me precious time to wash my hands than anything else.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-16 14:45:30
That exactly answers your question... the practical solution is for the small group of people who can't get over their hangups to withdraw from society and let the rest of us move on. 2nd best option is to get over it. 3rd is establish half a dozen new "genders"... might as well separate races out, too.
You're really bad at this, and you apparently don't know what the word practical means.
Practical means actually doing something, not theory.
What's more practical? Large scale standards of gender/sexuality being agreed upon by everyone (impossible), adding several variations of the current gender based facilities to every building (incredibly costly)... The most practical option is keep the gender based facilities the way they are and if you have a problem with people you can't even pick out of a crowd sharing those facilities with you, go somewhere else.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-16 14:50:03
Well that's where my confusion comes in. Who here has a problem with the way things are now? In other words, what is the frickin' argument?
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-16 14:54:42
Well that's where my confusion comes in. Who here has a problem with the way things are now?
2 forum posters apparently do, as well as thousands of very loud people who picket and pressure politicians to push 18th century legislation like the bill in the OP.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-16 14:54:58
Mmm, Nausi, approximately 50% of Fayetteville voters, and the human vending machine known as Michelle Duggar so far.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-16 14:57:43
Care to elaborate? Nausi just seems to have a problem with a boy/girl waltzing into the wrong restroom/locker room and having the right to do so, which is pretty much the opposite of the way things are now.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-16 15:11:12
Care to elaborate? Nausi just seems to have a problem with a boy/girl waltzing into the wrong restroom/locker room and having the right to do so, which is pretty much the opposite of the way things are now.
You just don't get it... most trans men and women look more like their identified gender than many cisgender people. What it really boils down to is him being jealous that a mtf uses the female restroom and gets to see all those women taking a dump.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-16 15:19:46
Care to elaborate? Nausi just seems to have a problem with a boy/girl waltzing into the wrong restroom/locker room and having the right to do so, which is pretty much the opposite of the way things are now.
You just don't get it... most trans men and women look more like their identified gender than many cisgender people. What it really boils down to is him being jealous that a mtf uses the female restroom and gets to see all those women taking a dump.
Yeah, I'm sure that's what he's thinking. Did I mention you were really bad at this? And I do "get it", which is why I made the earlier comment that if nobody can tell that you're not a dude, for example, nobody should care about you using a facility designed for dudes. I still don't think a dude who looks like a dude and still has dude parts should have the right to use the girls' locker room just because he identifies as a girl. That opens way too many windows for exploitation.
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By Jetackuu 2014-12-16 15:23:55
the human vending machine known as Michelle Duggar
Where do you put the dollar, or is there a credit card slot?
(rhetorical)
but seriously, that line gave me the lulz, kudos sir, kudos.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-16 15:26:55
Well, it's a window that no one's cared enough to open up for exploitation. But let's repeal legislation that allows for open discrimination based on whatever boogeyman our herpaderp congregation fears this week. You know, just in case.
This is the way things have been. Trans people didn't just recently decide to start using public facilities. It's just now that the community is more outspoken and visible, hive queen Duggar and the like-minded would like to regress back into the golden ages of repression where boys dressed like boys, girls played with Barbie dolls, and gays existed only in the far off wastelands of San Francisco. It's little more than primitive fear.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-16 15:33:07
Where do you put the dollar, or is there a credit card slot? 
For the record, I have no issues with how the Duggars chose to live their lives as the progenitors of half the population of Arkansas. I do, obviously, have issues with their evangelical political views so, yeah, I'm going to pick the low-hanging fruit ^^
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By Jetackuu 2014-12-16 15:42:07
Well, it's a window that no one's cared enough to open up for exploitation. But let's repeal legislation that allows for open discrimination based on whatever boogeyman our herpaderp congregation fears this week. You know, just in case.
This is the way things have been. Trans people didn't just recently decide to start using public facilities. It's just now that the community is more outspoken and visible, hive queen Duggar and the like-minded would like to regress back into the golden ages of repression where boys dressed like boys, girls played with Barbie dolls, and gays existed only in the far off wastelands of San Francisco. It's little more than primitive fear. 
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-12-16 15:55:19
I mean I understand how a member of a protected class might loose the initiative to perhaps accommodate others, but for someone who perpetually insists on being accommodated, you're pretty self absorbed. Maybe think of the rest of us for a change. Yeah, look at those people walking around the restroom appropriate for their gender like they own the *** place. Why do they get special ordinances that enable them the same semblance of being as any other human?
Hey I've got just the solution to some feigned oppressions. Have some made up rights.
Liberalism 101.
Again it's not about the small minority of people confused about their sex. It's about the rest of us.
Again you don't understand the nature of this issue. Recognizing the sexual aspect of genitals isn't some clever way to mask bigotry. I goto the gym frequently, I see ding dongs in the locker room. I assure you I'm not looking out for them, but somehow, someway, I still see them. If they were va-jay-jays I would react differently. What do you think would happen if I just walked into the women's room? I guess I'd be called a pervert by all the hateful bigots in there right? One of us has a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature, it's not me. What does this mean then?
And the only people I've known who equate the restroom to a sexual environment are the ones who enjoy sucking *** like the antidote is inside.
Nice, you're getting testy. I understand that as a gay man you might find it difficult to understand what happens to the rest of us when we see a good looking girl naked. It's really not that we can't control ourselves, but rather it's pretty uncomfortable to be asked to do so in an environment where everyone's naked. Arousal and attraction aren't voluntary. It's pretty uncomfortable to be put in a place of very little privacy and be exposed to that vulnerability.
I mean I get it that gays and lesbians are kinda screwed out of that in the current system, but you know why is the solution that the vast majority has to become uncomfortable? Just wanna spread around the misery? How come no one just advocates for more bathrooms? Why is that any less practical than forcing the overwhelming population to become uncomfortable?
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Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-12-16 15:58:49
Well that's where my confusion comes in. Who here has a problem with the way things are now? In other words, what is the frickin' argument?
The argument is that as heterosexual or cis genders we enjoy the privilege of using the bathrooms we WANT to. This is somehow being turned into an unfair practice of DISCRIMINATION against the LGBT community. Therefore in order to remedy the problem the vast majority of people must be stripped of their privilege. As cis we now will no longer have the bathroom we want and the LGBT will have that privilege instead.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-12-16 16:03:10
Care to elaborate? Nausi just seems to have a problem with a boy/girl waltzing into the wrong restroom/locker room and having the right to do so, which is pretty much the opposite of the way things are now.
You just don't get it... most trans men and women look more like their identified gender than many cisgender people. What it really boils down to is him being jealous that a mtf uses the female restroom and gets to see all those women taking a dump.
Yeah, I'm sure that's what he's thinking. Did I mention you were really bad at this? And I do "get it", which is why I made the earlier comment that if nobody can tell that you're not a dude, for example, nobody should care about you using a facility designed for dudes. I still don't think a dude who looks like a dude and still has dude parts should have the right to use the girls' locker room just because he identifies as a girl. That opens way too many windows for exploitation.
They keep limiting their scope to "bathrooms" knowing full well that they also mean locker rooms too. Notice not one of them will stand up and say well how about just bathrooms and not locker rooms. They can only sell their ideas by misrepresenting them.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-16 16:08:54
They keep limiting their scope to "bathrooms" knowing full well that they also mean locker rooms too. Notice not one of them will stand up and say well how about just bathrooms and not locker rooms. They can only sell their ideas by misrepresenting them.
I've referenced locker rooms multiple times, bud, it makes no difference. Trans people don't want to see your junk any more than you want to see theirs. It's a red herring, some random thing you pull into the discussion to try and distract people when you know you're wrong.
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By Jetackuu 2014-12-16 16:16:00
As cis we now will no longer have the bathroom we want. speak for yourself, I'm a straight male and still don't have the bathroom I want.
Clean
with paper towels and decent toilet paper, and privacy.
I'd like privacy in some sort of a "locker room" as well, before you go there.
If I want to see another man's junk I'll go watch chatroullete.
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Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-12-16 16:20:06
Well, it's a window that no one's cared enough to open up for exploitation. But let's repeal legislation that allows for open discrimination based on whatever boogeyman our herpaderp congregation fears this week. You know, just in case.
This is the way things have been. Trans people didn't just recently decide to start using public facilities. It's just now that the community is more outspoken and visible, hive queen Duggar and the like-minded would like to regress back into the golden ages of repression where boys dressed like boys, girls played with Barbie dolls, and gays existed only in the far off wastelands of San Francisco. It's little more than primitive fear.
God what a wonderful TV show.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-16 16:29:01
You think that was testy? I can assure you I got a hearty chuckle out of typing it.
I understand that as a gay man you might find it difficult to understand what happens to the rest of us when we see a good looking girl naked. It's really not that we can't control ourselves, but rather it's pretty uncomfortable to be asked to do so in an environment where everyone's naked. Arousal and attraction aren't voluntary. It's pretty uncomfortable to be put in a place of very little privacy and be exposed to that vulnerability. Yes, please do explain this mysterious phenomenon known as sek-shew-el e-trak-shun, a concept that is as foreign to me as the supple teat of a beautiful maiden.
You know, you just described a common predicament for any gym-going homosexual. Except we understand the idea of self control and are aware of what is and isn't contextually appropriate behavior. Could I shout to the nearest half-naked jock next to me "Hey honey! Come waggle that swinging meatsicle over here, bae!"? Sure, but most *** decent people know that sexual behavior is inappropriate in that setting.
You're not being made to feel uncomfortable. You are making yourself uncomfortable by imagining a scenario where you think you'd be compromised. Guess what? It'll happen, IF it happens, and you won't even be aware. You're making it sound as if the greater population is being inconvenienced when 1) the chances of sharing the facilities with a trans individual are low and 2) the chances of even knowing you're doing it are likely lower.
 Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-12-16 16:47:45
Nice, you're getting testy. I understand that as a gay man you might find it difficult to understand what happens to the rest of us when we see a good looking girl naked. It's really not that we can't control ourselves, but rather it's pretty uncomfortable to be asked to do so in an environment where everyone's naked. Arousal and attraction aren't voluntary. It's pretty uncomfortable to be put in a place of very little privacy and be exposed to that vulnerability.
I mean I get it that gays and lesbians are kinda screwed out of that in the current system, but you know why is the solution that the vast majority has to become uncomfortable? Just wanna spread around the misery? How come no one just advocates for more bathrooms? Why is that any less practical than forcing the overwhelming population to become uncomfortable?
Have male, female, unisex facilities. Or, you could actually change the facilities so that lockers are simply the common storage area, snd actual changing/shower/toilet/sink are individual.
But that would cost a few additional drywall/partitions/doors.
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By Altimaomega 2014-12-16 18:34:40
They keep limiting their scope to "bathrooms" knowing full well that they also mean locker rooms too. Notice not one of them will stand up and say well how about just bathrooms and not locker rooms. They can only sell their ideas by misrepresenting them.
I've referenced locker rooms multiple times, bud, it makes no difference. Trans people don't want to see your junk any more than you want to see theirs. It's a red herring, some random thing you pull into the discussion to try and distract people when you know you're wrong.
Explain this then, If you have male parts, you should use the men's room. Still not a bigot for insisting that we adhere to those rules. I wouldn't want to change in front of women in my gym's locker room, I'm pretty sure women wouldn't want to change in front of me either.
Nah, you are.
The problem with this is, under your logic we would be using the same restrooms and locker rooms. You would still be changing in front of a woman. I'm pre-operative, but I haven't been able to pass as male for over a decade now. So it's gonna be kind of awkward for all of us involved.
As a society, we don't really segregate restrooms by genital configuration. And I don't see that happening unless you want someone sitting outside to fondle your junk just to make sure you aren't sneaking a peek, every time you have to use the restroom.
So, why is it so important to segregate bathrooms by genitals and not gender? You simply don't understand what the word bigot means.
Genitals are sexual. Being a naked woman in front of a naked man has a sexual aspect to is. Being a naked man in front of a naked woman is sexual. It might not be sexual for a woman who identifies as a man to be in front of other men, but for everyone who generally identifies as strait and has a more common gender construct, it is. It's why we insist that people wear underwear, and women wear shirts.
Actually, the argument is "stop creating a problem where none exists". If someone only appears out of place, how would you even know if they're trans? How do you know what's in anyone's pants unless you're looking? People don't go to the bathroom/changing room to flash their bits around (with some notable exceptions). There's no controversy minus the one created by people who need to interject sex into everything to obfuscate their own bigotry.
By default, we all use the bathroom proper for our gender and not our genitals. There aren't random crotch checks to ensure ding-dongs don't mix in with the hoo-haws. Good news! The practical solution is to maintain things the way they are. Again you don't understand the nature of this issue. Recognizing the sexual aspect of genitals isn't some clever way to mask bigotry. I goto the gym frequently, I see ding dongs in the locker room. I assure you I'm not looking out for them, but somehow, someway, I still see them. If they were va-jay-jays I would react differently. What do you think would happen if I just walked into the women's room? I guess I'd be called a pervert by all the hateful bigots in there right? One of us has a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature, it's not me.
Classic Pleebo though. "I don't have a problem with it, and I'm enlightened. So if you do then you're a knuckle dragging idiot."
Genitals are not inherently sexual. A woman being naked in front of a man does not have any more sexual aspect to it than a man being naked in front of a man, and vice versa (man in front of a woman, woman in front of a woman).
There can be sexual aspects to being naked, but just being naked isn't as of itself sexual. So there should be no issue then if all teenage boys can just waltz right into a girls locker room right?
What kind of drugs do you people do to make you think like this.
What kind of drugs do you people take to think a restroom has an automatic sexual overtone?
you retreat right into restrooms. More of these examples exists, please feel free to back read and learn to stop being a hypocrite.
By Altimaomega 2014-12-16 18:39:13
You think that was testy? I can assure you I got a hearty chuckle out of typing it.
I understand that as a gay man you might find it difficult to understand what happens to the rest of us when we see a good looking girl naked. It's really not that we can't control ourselves, but rather it's pretty uncomfortable to be asked to do so in an environment where everyone's naked. Arousal and attraction aren't voluntary. It's pretty uncomfortable to be put in a place of very little privacy and be exposed to that vulnerability. Yes, please do explain this mysterious phenomenon known as sek-shew-el e-trak-shun, a concept that is as foreign to me as the supple teat of a beautiful maiden.
You know, you just described a common predicament for any gym-going homosexual. Except we understand the idea of self control and are aware of what is and isn't contextually appropriate behavior. Could I shout to the nearest half-naked jock next to me "Hey honey! Come waggle that swinging meatsicle over here, bae!"? Sure, but most *** decent people know that sexual behavior is inappropriate in that setting.
You're not being made to feel uncomfortable. You are making yourself uncomfortable by imagining a scenario where you think you'd be compromised. Guess what? It'll happen, IF it happens, and you won't even be aware. You're making it sound as if the greater population is being inconvenienced when 1) the chances of sharing the facilities with a trans individual are low and 2) the chances of even knowing you're doing it are likely lower.
You use that word a lot. Not only that I'd love to see you use that line in a gym locker room. Decency has nothing to do with it. I'm sure you know what really keeps you from using it.
By Jetackuu 2014-12-16 18:47:06
I'm glad I don't know what this is^
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-16 18:50:58
They keep limiting their scope to "bathrooms" knowing full well that they also mean locker rooms too. Notice not one of them will stand up and say well how about just bathrooms and not locker rooms. They can only sell their ideas by misrepresenting them.
I've referenced locker rooms multiple times, bud, it makes no difference. Trans people don't want to see your junk any more than you want to see theirs. It's a red herring, some random thing you pull into the discussion to try and distract people when you know you're wrong.
Explain this then, If you have male parts, you should use the men's room. Still not a bigot for insisting that we adhere to those rules. I wouldn't want to change in front of women in my gym's locker room, I'm pretty sure women wouldn't want to change in front of me either.
Nah, you are.
The problem with this is, under your logic we would be using the same restrooms and locker rooms. You would still be changing in front of a woman. I'm pre-operative, but I haven't been able to pass as male for over a decade now. So it's gonna be kind of awkward for all of us involved.
As a society, we don't really segregate restrooms by genital configuration. And I don't see that happening unless you want someone sitting outside to fondle your junk just to make sure you aren't sneaking a peek, every time you have to use the restroom.
So, why is it so important to segregate bathrooms by genitals and not gender? You simply don't understand what the word bigot means.
Genitals are sexual. Being a naked woman in front of a naked man has a sexual aspect to is. Being a naked man in front of a naked woman is sexual. It might not be sexual for a woman who identifies as a man to be in front of other men, but for everyone who generally identifies as strait and has a more common gender construct, it is. It's why we insist that people wear underwear, and women wear shirts.
Actually, the argument is "stop creating a problem where none exists". If someone only appears out of place, how would you even know if they're trans? How do you know what's in anyone's pants unless you're looking? People don't go to the bathroom/changing room to flash their bits around (with some notable exceptions). There's no controversy minus the one created by people who need to interject sex into everything to obfuscate their own bigotry.
By default, we all use the bathroom proper for our gender and not our genitals. There aren't random crotch checks to ensure ding-dongs don't mix in with the hoo-haws. Good news! The practical solution is to maintain things the way they are. Again you don't understand the nature of this issue. Recognizing the sexual aspect of genitals isn't some clever way to mask bigotry. I goto the gym frequently, I see ding dongs in the locker room. I assure you I'm not looking out for them, but somehow, someway, I still see them. If they were va-jay-jays I would react differently. What do you think would happen if I just walked into the women's room? I guess I'd be called a pervert by all the hateful bigots in there right? One of us has a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature, it's not me.
Classic Pleebo though. "I don't have a problem with it, and I'm enlightened. So if you do then you're a knuckle dragging idiot."
Genitals are not inherently sexual. A woman being naked in front of a man does not have any more sexual aspect to it than a man being naked in front of a man, and vice versa (man in front of a woman, woman in front of a woman).
There can be sexual aspects to being naked, but just being naked isn't as of itself sexual. So there should be no issue then if all teenage boys can just waltz right into a girls locker room right?
What kind of drugs do you people do to make you think like this.
What kind of drugs do you people take to think a restroom has an automatic sexual overtone?
you retreat right into restrooms. More of these examples exists, please feel free to back read and learn to stop being a hypocrite.
Aside from athletic clubs and high schools, there is essentially zero chance of being in a communal area with nude people. Leave out that athletic clubs are private institutions and can put any rules they want in place, public restrooms are basically the only place where you could encounter a trans person's genitals.
I'd wager you've ogled a trans mtf's butt and not even known it...
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-16 18:59:43
You use that word a lot. Not only that I'd love to see you use that line in a gym locker room. Decency has nothing to do with it. I'm sure you know what really keeps you from using it. Sensing some ITG *** coming so I'll just stop you right there before you embarrass us all.
Funnily enough, the gayest locker room behavior I've witnessed is between straight guys. Yes, MOST people will behave themselves. What is your point?
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Quote: Michigan House Passed Bill Allowing EMTs To Refuse Treatment To Gay People
December 8, 2014
Over the weekend, Republicans in the Michigan Statehouse passed a “license to discriminate” bill that would give just about anyone the right to refuse service to LGBT people if it conflicted with their religious beliefs.
The broadly written Religious Freedom Restoration Act would allow, for example, an EMT to refuse emergency treatment to a gay person or a pharmacist to refuse to refill HIV medication, because God decreed gays and lesbians should be put to death.
The measure is similar to one in Arizona that even right-wing governor Jan Brewer thought went too far and vetoed.
As The New Civil Rights Movement points out, the act is so broad it would let a Catholic high school refuse to hire a Muslim janitor, and a DMV clerk deny a new driver’s license to someone who is divorced.
Michigan Speaker Bolger fasttracked the bill, which passed 59-50 along party lines. “I support individual liberty and I support religious freedom,” Bolger said. “I have been horrified as some have claimed that a person’s faith should only be practiced while hiding in their home or in their church.”
If it passes in the Michigan Senate and is signed by Governor Rick Snyder, a Republican, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act will become law.
“The idea that we need to ‘restore’ religious freedom — rights that are already enshrined in the U.S. Constitution — is a farce created by conservative lawmakers for the sole purpose of appeasing their far-right donors and the religious right,” said Lonnie Scott of Progress Michigan.
In a supreme bit of irony, the Michigan House over the weekend to pass a non-discrimination bill that protects the LGBT community.
“No one from the LGBT community has ever had fire hoses turned on them by the police department, they have never had to drink out of an LGBT water fountain,” pastor Stacy Swimp told the House committee that considered the measure. “There is no record of LGBT — homosexuals, lesbians—being forced to sit at the back of the bus in an LGBT section.”
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