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Scottish Independence (?)
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini
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By Quetzalcoatl.Maldini 2014-09-17 08:00:15
I can't see this ever happening. Every middle eastern government that has moved away from selling their oil in $$$ have been killed.
If one of the world's largest oil producers starts selling its oil in another currency, the US will be in a lot of pain, especially if its Saudi Arabia. Because the UAE, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar will follow.
EDIT: This just in right now - Oman's leader has passed away with no Heir. Oman has played a large role in middle eastern politics by being a bridge between the Iranians and the Gulf states, while also being very stand-offish.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-17 08:11:54
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini said: »
I can't see this ever happening. Every middle eastern government that has moved away from selling their oil in $$$ have been killed.
If one of the world's largest oil producers starts selling its oil in another currency, the US will be in a lot of pain, especially if its Saudi Arabia. Because the UAE, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar will follow.
EDIT: This just in right now - Oman's leader has passed away with no Heir. Oman has played a large role in middle eastern politics by being a bridge between the Iranians and the Gulf states, while also being very stand-offish. It's already begun. Libya acted too early. They should have waited until Russia and China made the switch.
Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-09-17 08:17:25
Bismarck.Bloodbeat said: »Well like I said, there's the circumstances of future independence versus the present day circumstances of the coalition government's rule.
Bedroom tax, benefit caps, one of the lowest minimum wages in Europe, an increasingly privatised NHS and education system.
They'll need to find money to subsidise their free universities and NHS prescriptions, but they may find that's balanced when their economy isn't being wider distributed.
This is nuts to me. Aren't some people exempt from it if they're of a certain class (contemporary aristos behind the shield of the historical grading system for properties/estates in the UK)?
It reminds me of the the window/door taxes of the southern US in the 1800's/early 1900's.
Cerberus.Spirachub
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By Cerberus.Spirachub 2014-09-17 08:33:24
Bismarck.Bloodbeat said: »Well like I said, there's the circumstances of future independence versus the present day circumstances of the coalition government's rule.
Bedroom tax, benefit caps, one of the lowest minimum wages in Europe, an increasingly privatised NHS and education system.
They'll need to find money to subsidise their free universities and NHS prescriptions, but they may find that's balanced when their economy isn't being wider distributed.
This is nuts to me. Aren't some people exempt from it if they're of a certain class (contemporary aristos behind the shield of the historical grading system for properties/estates in the UK)?
It reminds me of the the window/door taxes of the southern US in the 1800's/early 1900's.
It should be called Spare bedroom tax really. As I understand it, it's for people who gets housing benefits and rents a house/flat that has an unoccupied/spare bedroom. For any spare bedroom you have, you'd have to pay extra to make up for the rent. ( details)
I.e. the government is not forking out money to pay for the rent for your extra room(s)/ paying for a bigger home than you need, you have to pay it yourself. Which is fair enough imo...
There is no bedroom tax for anyone who own their property or rent their own homes without claiming housing allowance.
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Bismarck.Dubai
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By Bismarck.Dubai 2014-09-17 09:32:17
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini said: »
I can't see this ever happening. Every middle eastern government that has moved away from selling their oil in $$$ have been killed.
If one of the world's largest oil producers starts selling its oil in another currency, the US will be in a lot of pain, especially if its Saudi Arabia. Because the UAE, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar will follow.
EDIT: This just in right now - Oman's leader has passed away with no Heir. Oman has played a large role in middle eastern politics by being a bridge between the Iranians and the Gulf states, while also being very stand-offish.
I can't find where you got that the Gabuus(Sultan) of Oman died?
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini
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By Quetzalcoatl.Maldini 2014-09-17 09:33:15
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini said: »
I can't see this ever happening. Every middle eastern government that has moved away from selling their oil in $$$ have been killed.
If one of the world's largest oil producers starts selling its oil in another currency, the US will be in a lot of pain, especially if its Saudi Arabia. Because the UAE, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar will follow.
EDIT: This just in right now - Oman's leader has passed away with no Heir. Oman has played a large role in middle eastern politics by being a bridge between the Iranians and the Gulf states, while also being very stand-offish. It's already begun. Libya acted too early. They should have waited until Russia and China made the switch.
The Saudis probably feel like America is getting ready to have good relations with Iran and want to have more allies.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-17 09:38:02
Quetzalcoatl.Maldini said: »Quetzalcoatl.Maldini said: »
I can't see this ever happening. Every middle eastern government that has moved away from selling their oil in $$$ have been killed.
If one of the world's largest oil producers starts selling its oil in another currency, the US will be in a lot of pain, especially if its Saudi Arabia. Because the UAE, Oman, Bahrain, Kuwait and Qatar will follow.
EDIT: This just in right now - Oman's leader has passed away with no Heir. Oman has played a large role in middle eastern politics by being a bridge between the Iranians and the Gulf states, while also being very stand-offish. It's already begun. Libya acted too early. They should have waited until Russia and China made the switch.
The Saudis probably feel like America is getting ready to have good relations with Iran and want to have more allies.
"Good relations with Iran" for the US & Iran means not openly threatening each other somehow whilst taking care of a mutual problem.
I think it's safe to say that we're going to side with the Saudis on any major disputes that arise.
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2014-09-17 13:50:05
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-17 13:52:51
The box, the box!
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-17 14:05:48
Only 14 hours and 50min until the vote.
Bahamut.Scizor
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By Bahamut.Scizor 2014-09-17 14:20:26
I'ts going to be a Yes and its going to be beautiful.
By Elvyn87 2014-09-17 14:21:53
Another bit of Blair's delayed reaction douche-baggery.
A yes vote will destroy Scotland and damage England. Simpel as that no if/and/or/buts about it. A No Vote wont matter because now that this can of worms has been opened it wont close. England with throw more power and money at Scottish parliament to stop this happening again(appeasement) which will also effect England negatively.
Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-09-17 14:28:53
I'ts going to be a Yes and its going to be beautiful.
It was going to be a Yes, and it would have been beautiful, but then you had to go and put an apostrophe in the wrong place. I hope you're happy with yourself.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-17 18:20:38
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »
YouTube Video Placeholder
Cerberus.Tidis
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2014-09-17 18:45:38
Bismarck.Dracondria said: »Independence is independence but the box could be anything, it could even be independence!
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-09-18 01:55:25
interesting. Anyone from the Shetland islands or other islands in Scotland on ffxiah?
Shetland may reconsider its place in Scotland after yes vote, says minister
Scotland secretary says if islands were to vote no but national vote was yes, it could become self-governing like Isle of Man
Quote: Oil-rich Shetland may consider becoming a self-governing territory like the Isle of Man rather than stay part of an independent Scotland in the event of a yes vote, the Scotland secretary, Alistair Carmichael, has said.
In an interview with the Guardian, Carmichael said if Shetland were to vote strongly against independence but the Scottish national vote was narrowly in favour, then a "conversation about Shetland's position and the options that might be open to it" would begin.
The Liberal Democrat MP, who represents Orkney and Shetland in Westminster and has been secretary of state for Scotland in the coalition government since last October, said those options might include the islands modelling themselves on the Isle of Man, which is a self-governing crown dependency that is not part of the UK, or on their neighbours the Faroe Isles, which are an autonomous country within the Danish realm.
Asked if he was suggesting Alex Salmond should not take for granted that oilfields off Shetland will belong to Scotland in the event of a yes vote, he said: "That would be one of the things that we would want to discuss. I wouldn't like to predict at this stage where the discussions would go."
Responding to Carmichael's comments, a Yes Scotland spokesman said: "Scotland's island communities will have greater control over their local economies, natural environment and be represented at the heart of government in an independent Scotland.
"A yes vote is about empowering people and communities throughout Scotland, including our island communities. That is one reason why the Shetland News has chosen to chosen to back yes."
But Carmichael's comments were echoed by Tavish Scott, Shetland's MSP, who when asked whether Shetland would have to obey the will of Scotland in the event of a yes vote, said: "Will it now? We'll have to look at our options. We're not going to be told what to do by Alex Salmond."
Speaking as he canvassed in the capital Lerwick's town centre on the final day of campaigning before the vote, Scott said the option of becoming a crown dependency was "something we will look at", though he said he ruled out full independence for the islands.
A petition of more than 1,000 signatures raised by islanders from Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles calling for a separate referendum on whether they could themselves become independent was rejected last month by the Scottish government, which said it had promised new powers to the three island groups.
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Leviathan.Xsoahc
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By Leviathan.Xsoahc 2014-09-18 10:01:28
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-09-18 10:17:05
For the sake of shits and gigs, what if a contemporary Stuart that just happened to be named Mary was brought out of the woodpile. BUM BUM BUUUMMM!!! Who would win in a cane fight? Elizabeth II or fictitious Mary Queen of Scots II?
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Fenrir.Atheryn
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By Fenrir.Atheryn 2014-09-18 11:00:43
Once polling is closed and the results are in, I'd be curious to know the average age of each side.
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Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-09-18 11:03:52
For the sake of shits and gigs, what if a contemporary Stuart that just happened to be named Mary was brought out of the woodpile. BUM BUM BUUUMMM!!! Who would win in a cane fight? Elizabeth II or fictitious Mary Queen of Scots II? I don't know.
Mary always struck me as naive. From what I remember, she went with the flow of what her advisors recommended.
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Cerberus.Tidis
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2014-09-18 11:10:42
Once polling is closed and the results are in, I'd be curious to know the average age of each side. If I had to make any guesses, I'd say the demographics of the yes voters will be 65+ and maybe about half of the under 25s with no getting the other half of the under 25s and then everything between 26 and 64.
Of course I have no idea really.
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Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-09-18 11:29:26
For the sake of shits and gigs, what if a contemporary Stuart that just happened to be named Mary was brought out of the woodpile. BUM BUM BUUUMMM!!! Who would win in a cane fight? Elizabeth II or fictitious Mary Queen of Scots II? I don't know.
Mary always struck me as naive. From what I remember, she went with the flow of what her advisors recommended.
It been a while, but from what I remember, I'm inclined to agree. Manipulation within her own court.
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Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2014-09-18 12:43:01
Anyone know if they vote yes today that they can still cancel it later while still in preparation for the final step?
On another note:
I find it extremely weird that the requirement is just 50%+X <.<
When something touches the architecture of a state as German I'm used to a 2/3 majority so it really does represent the will of a nation and not just a temporary reaction to one good speach on TV.
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-18 12:43:48
Anyone know if they vote yes today that they can still cancel it later while still in preparation for the final step? In the passive-aggressive words of Cameron "if you vote yes and leave us, this time is forever". Take that as you may!
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Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2014-09-18 12:46:46
Anyone know if they vote yes today that they can still cancel it later while still in preparation for the final step? In the passive-aggressive words of Cameron "if you vote yes and leave us, this time is forever". Take that as you may! I meant it more in a constitutional/juristic way. How binding a referendum in scottland is for their regional parliament.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-09-18 12:48:13
Anyone know if they vote yes today that they can still cancel it later while still in preparation for the final step?
On another note:
I find it extremely weird that the requirement is just 50%+X <.<
When something touches the architecture of a state as German I'm used to a 2/3 majority so it really does represent the will of a nation and not just a temporary reaction to one good speach on TV.
Yeah. This seems like a big thing for a simple majority, but...
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-09-18 12:59:28
It's binding.
Also, there will be no recounts if it is close in districts. Only a recount if there procedural errors.
I'll go find link..
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Bismarck.Leneth
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2014-09-18 13:02:13
It's binding.
Also, there will be no recounts if it is close in districts. Only a recount if there procedural errors.
I'll go find link.. Thank you,
no need to find a link you're trustable enough.
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Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-18 13:02:42
no need to find a link you're trustable enough. Woah! On this forum? How do you attain that status!
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Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-09-18 13:57:55
It's binding.
Also, there will be no recounts if it is close in districts. Only a recount if there procedural errors.
I'll go find link.. Thank you,
no need to find a link you're trustable enough. Thanks :)
Heree are some anyway.
Scottish independence: What if result is a dead heat?
Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013
Edinburgh Agreement
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Now for some good(?) news!
I'm not sure how many have been keeping up with the upcoming vote and the precedent it sets for Catalonian secessionists in Spain. I've been wondering how it could also upset Parliamentary majority, which at the moment is center-left (Labor), and could it lead to Cameron's (center-right (Conservative-Unionist)) resignation?
As it seems, I think the UK needs Scotland more than Scotland needs the UK.
Quote: It's looking like bad news for the rest of the UK's political establishment
ANDREW GRICE Author Biography POLITICAL EDITOR Monday 08 September 2014
In the two-year Scottish referendum campaign, Whitehall and Westminster have been in denial about the prospect of Scotland voting Yes to independence. Suddenly, as the opinion polls show it as a very real prospect, the London-based political establishment is anxiously thinking about the implications.
“The consequences, not just for England, but Wales and Northern Ireland, are frankly unimaginable,” one senior Whitehall official said today. This is not an obscure debate about more devolution: some MPs fear the peace process in Northern Ireland, or at least order on the streets, could be at risk, and that there could be new demands for a united Ireland. There would inevitably be calls for a stronger Welsh Assembly, more devolution to the English regions and even an English Parliament.
If Scots vote to walk out of the marriage, there is no guarantee of an amicable “velvet divorce”. Alex Salmond could afford to be conciliatory in victory. He would invite a vanquished Alistair Darling to join all-party talks to ensure a smooth transition to “independence day” in March 2016.
Yet an angry public mood in the rest of the UK, especially in England, could push the political parties into rejecting a friendly separation. Cabinet ministers already describe the SNP’s timetable as “completely unrealistic,” when there are complex issues like the Trident nuclear weapons base on the table. Speaking privately, they suspect that there would be trade-offs, and that Mr Salmond might ditch his “non-nuclear Scotland” policy in return for concessions in other areas.
But it is now dawning on MPs that a public backlash from English voters against the Scots could force the Government to take a much harder line than ministers expect. If the Scots reject enjoying the “best of both worlds” - more devolution and the security of the UK – then why should the remaining UK do them any favours during the divorce settlement? Yes campaign material as the campaign ahead of the Scottish independence referendum continues Yes campaign material as the campaign ahead of the Scottish independence referendum continues
Such pressures could force the Conservatives to take a hardline stance on the negotiations in their manifesto at next May’s general election. A Scottish breakaway would provide yet more ammunition for Ukip. If Nigel Farage demanded a tough line in the talks, the Tories might have to match it. In turn, that could put pressure on Labour to follow suit.
Who would be leading the Tories at the time? We don’t know. Mr Cameron has dismissed the idea that he would have to resign after presiding over the end of the 300-year Union. But he has to say that now. If he were to hint at anything else, it would allow the SNP to shout: “Vote Yes to kick out the Tory Prime Minister.”
Cameron critics on the Tory backbenches have already started to discuss amongst themselves whether a Yes vote next week could be the trigger for a coup against him as party leader. They would need the votes of 46 of the 304 Tory MPs to force a vote of confidence. Opinions are divided over whether this would be the right moment to strike. Some Tories want to wait until after next May’s general election. If there were a hung parliament and Mr Cameron tried to continue in coalition with the Liberal Democrats, then Tory rebels say he would be “toast”. The Better Together leader Alistair Darling campaigning in Edinburgh, where he met voters and set out his case for a No Vote in the Scottish Referendum The Better Together leader Alistair Darling campaigning in Edinburgh, where he met voters and set out his case for a No Vote in the Scottish Referendum
Would Cameron fall on his sword after a Yes vote? “I think his instinct would be to carry on and steady the ship,” said a long-standing friend. “What could save him is that the general election is not far off. But if things got really awful, and there was economic turmoil, then it might be different.”
There is already speculation in Tory circles over who might succeed Mr Cameron. The rumour mill suggests that George Osborne would be ruled out because his nuclear weapon in the referendum campaign – that Scotland could not keep the pound – backfired on the No camp, adding to Mr Salmond’s list of threats, bullying and bluffs. With Boris Johnson unlikely to return to Parliament until next May, William Hague, the Commons Leader, who led the Tories from 1997 to 2001, is seen as the most likely caretaker.
A Yes vote next week could provoke calls for next May’s general election to be delayed, on the grounds that there would be little point in electing 59 Scottish MPs for 10 months until “independence day.” That would require legislation to overturn the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act. But it might prove too controversial, as it would allow Ukip to accuse the Tories and Lib Dems of clinging on to power.
In the long run, some Labour figures fear they would struggle to win another Commons majority without their solid block of Scottish MPs - 41 at present. The gossip among Blairite MPs is that their hero could still “win” England, but that a left-leaning leader could not. A Yes vote could be very bad news for Ed Miliband.
Source.
A wee bit o' background.
Side note: I also find it funny that the birth of the next heir was announced a little prematurely in terms of unspoken pregnancy etiquette, but just in time to drum up pro-union sentiments.
New brother/sister? Ugh! Balls!
EDIT: Trying to discuss this in 'Random P&R' was probably doomed from the beginning, but it does give a little credence to our UK counter-parts being more sensible for simply avoiding that thread.
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