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St. Louis, Missouri Vs. The Police: Heaven or Hell, Duel 1! Let's rock!
 Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 08:59:34
Quote: Now the "gentle giant" is on tape roughing up the store clerk. And all people can do is put their denial mechanisms in overdrive. People are innocent until proven guilty in this country. That not only includes the victim in this case, but the cop as well.
Haven't kept tabs over the weekend, but it was already assumed he engaged in some petty acts of theft and simple assault.
Still waiting for the point where it justifies being shot.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-18 09:06:56
Quote: Now the "gentle giant" is on tape roughing up the store clerk. And all people can do is put their denial mechanisms in overdrive. People are innocent until proven guilty in this country. That not only includes the victim in this case, but the cop as well.
Haven't kept tabs over the weekend, but it was already assumed he engaged in some petty acts of theft and simple assault.
Still waiting for the point where it justifies being shot. That alone doesn't justify him being shot, but the alleged reports of the kid trying to take the gun away from the cop has a stronger merit now.
For all we know, the kid was shot accidentally when he tried to take the gun away from the cop. I'm pretty sure that the cop said that (I do remember reading a small sentence of that nature, over the sensationalism of race baiting by the media), so it is very possible that happened.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 09:12:21
Quote: Now the "gentle giant" is on tape roughing up the store clerk. And all people can do is put their denial mechanisms in overdrive. People are innocent until proven guilty in this country. That not only includes the victim in this case, but the cop as well.
Haven't kept tabs over the weekend, but it was already assumed he engaged in some petty acts of theft and simple assault.
Still waiting for the point where it justifies being shot. That alone doesn't justify him being shot, but the alleged reports of the kid trying to take the gun away from the cop has a stronger merit now.
For all we know, the kid was shot accidentally when he tried to take the gun away from the cop. I'm pretty sure that the cop said that (I do remember reading a small sentence of that nature, over the sensationalism of race baiting by the media), so it is very possible that happened.
Admittedly eyewitness accounts are not always reliable.
That said, hasn't it more or less been confirmed he was shot, outside of the vehicle, unarmed and with his hands in the air?
Again, I've not kept up over the weekend. So if I'm working on old information, please forgive me.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 09:18:39
Nausi's point is the cop is innocent of any crime until proven guilty and I agree with him.
At this point people are just using this situation as an excuse to defy authority with minor repercussions.
I do not deny that anyone engaging in violent or criminal acts through protest is criminal and is painting themselves and their community in a poor light.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-18 09:18:51
Quote: Now the "gentle giant" is on tape roughing up the store clerk. And all people can do is put their denial mechanisms in overdrive. People are innocent until proven guilty in this country. That not only includes the victim in this case, but the cop as well.
Haven't kept tabs over the weekend, but it was already assumed he engaged in some petty acts of theft and simple assault.
Still waiting for the point where it justifies being shot. That alone doesn't justify him being shot, but the alleged reports of the kid trying to take the gun away from the cop has a stronger merit now.
For all we know, the kid was shot accidentally when he tried to take the gun away from the cop. I'm pretty sure that the cop said that (I do remember reading a small sentence of that nature, over the sensationalism of race baiting by the media), so it is very possible that happened.
Admittedly eyewitness accounts are not always reliable.
That said, hasn't it more or less been confirmed he was shot, outside of the vehicle, unarmed and with his hands in the air?
Again, I've not kept up over the weekend. So if I'm working on old information, please forgive me. I believe the only confirmed facts are that he was shot outside the vehicle and unarmed. There is still question as to if he was shot with his hands in the air, as his friend was the only eyewitness to that, and if his friend was an accomplice to the crime committed prior, that taints his testimony greatly.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 09:23:34
Quote: Now the "gentle giant" is on tape roughing up the store clerk. And all people can do is put their denial mechanisms in overdrive. People are innocent until proven guilty in this country. That not only includes the victim in this case, but the cop as well.
Haven't kept tabs over the weekend, but it was already assumed he engaged in some petty acts of theft and simple assault.
Still waiting for the point where it justifies being shot. That alone doesn't justify him being shot, but the alleged reports of the kid trying to take the gun away from the cop has a stronger merit now.
For all we know, the kid was shot accidentally when he tried to take the gun away from the cop. I'm pretty sure that the cop said that (I do remember reading a small sentence of that nature, over the sensationalism of race baiting by the media), so it is very possible that happened.
Admittedly eyewitness accounts are not always reliable.
That said, hasn't it more or less been confirmed he was shot, outside of the vehicle, unarmed and with his hands in the air?
Again, I've not kept up over the weekend. So if I'm working on old information, please forgive me. I believe the only confirmed facts are that he was shot outside the vehicle and unarmed. There is still question as to if he was shot with his hands in the air, as his friend was the only eyewitness to that, and if his friend was an accomplice to the crime committed prior, that taints his testimony greatly.
I was under the impression there was another witness stating that, but still, in a community with an us vs. them mentality this is still a report to be viewed with a healthy amount of skepticism.
I maintain my position that there's no innocent party here and while my natural instinct has always been to side with the authorities, I think both authorities and civillians need to review their respective roles both in this specific situation and in the current culture that exists between them.
Trust needs to be re-established, and that's probably going to have to be initiated on the side of the people with the government paycheck. That's just how things work.
I also apologize if I'm overly-repeating myself. I've been discussing this in a few forums and with friends via messaging and my head's spinning about what I posted where.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-18 09:30:11
I fully agree with you 110%
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By Asura.Echandra 2014-08-18 09:37:32
THEY = a real indirect way of saying white people in power. THE MAN.
They're taking our rights!
They're killing our people!
They want you act ignorant and be uneducated
They're taking your jobs!
All I'm hearing is excuses to stay ignorant and act a fool by blaming someone else. No one is holding anyone down but themselves.
As for your 4 line items, all of those are in fact accurate.
As for the bold: almost entirely not true.
I'm white and I know this.
what does being white have to do with 'knowing this?' Wouldn't it have been better to say "I am intelligent enough to do the research and form an educated opinion on this matter" Of course, there are 'obstacles' in life, the playing field isn't even, but my point is the focus always ends up being race-blaming as an excuse why it's so bad, and things can't change. When you advocate a lifestyle that statistically sets you up for failure, are the results really that surprising?
When you cry about the same thing over and over, yet do nothing different to make a change...there is not easy way out, you have to make it for yourself. You can talk a big game like you are trying to do something, but keep that crutch in your back pocket to fall back on...just in case.
A cop using excessive force abusing his authority, or was he forced into a circumstance that created a judgement call for self-defense? If it was an abuse of authority, what kind of training or work environment has been in that would let him feel safe enough to think he could get away with gunning down someone. Are his peers of the same mind? IF they knew he had that untouchable mindset, why did they just turn a blind eye to a problem just waiting to happen? If it was self-defense, would it have been feasible to apply a less lethal means, or was he truly in a situation where there was no other choice?
 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-08-18 09:40:12
....
I believe the only confirmed facts are that he was shot outside the vehicle and unarmed. There is still question as to if he was shot with his hands in the air, as his friend was the only eyewitness to that, and if his friend was an accomplice to the crime committed prior, that taints his testimony greatly. Another confirmed fact: He was shot six times. what was probably the last bullet entered through the top of his head, indicating that he was either bent over or falling over forward at the time.
The New York Times is reporting that the results of a family-requested autopsy on Michael Brown show that the Ferguson, Missouri, teen was shot at least six times by police officer Darren Wilson - Slate
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-18 09:46:14
or was he truly in a situation where there was no other choice?
nope.
unarmed teenager.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-18 10:14:48
Quote: Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Department of Justice would conduct a third autopsy.
Why would there need to be a third autopsy? Wouldn't the first one be sufficient enough to determine the means of death, and the second one be sufficient enough for a forensic account of the events that took place?
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-18 10:16:46
Why would there need to be a third autopsy?
I think the federal government has some concerns about collusion in the local government.
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By Asura.Echandra 2014-08-18 10:18:02
or was he truly in a situation where there was no other choice?
nope.
unarmed teenager.
yes I'm aware of this, my point was simply looking at what should be the issue, not all the race ***. Take the whole paragraph in perspective, not just the part that is the easiest to debunk.
By fonewear 2014-08-18 10:19:29
Quote: Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Department of Justice would conduct a third autopsy.
Why would there need to be a third autopsy? Wouldn't the first one be sufficient enough to determine the means of death, and the second one be sufficient enough for a forensic account of the events that took place?
The third autopsy is free first two cost a fortune.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 10:21:24
or was he truly in a situation where there was no other choice?
nope.
unarmed teenager.
yes I'm aware of this, my point was simply looking at what should be the issue, not all the race ***. Take the whole paragraph in perspective, not just the part that is the easiest to debunk.
Saying race does not play a role in this overall situation -- be it the events that led up to the shooting of a suspect, or the shooting itself -- is denying a major problem in this country, and you can't solve a problem without acknowledging it as such.
By Jetackuu 2014-08-18 10:22:02
THEY = a real indirect way of saying white people in power. THE MAN.
They're taking our rights!
They're killing our people!
They want you act ignorant and be uneducated
They're taking your jobs!
All I'm hearing is excuses to stay ignorant and act a fool by blaming someone else. No one is holding anyone down but themselves.
As for your 4 line items, all of those are in fact accurate.
As for the bold: almost entirely not true.
I'm white and I know this.
what does being white have to do with 'knowing this?' Wouldn't it have been better to say "I am intelligent enough to do the research and form an educated opinion on this matter" Of course, there are 'obstacles' in life, the playing field isn't even, but my point is the focus always ends up being race-blaming as an excuse why it's so bad, and things can't change. When you advocate a lifestyle that statistically sets you up for failure, are the results really that surprising?
When you cry about the same thing over and over, yet do nothing different to make a change...there is not easy way out, you have to make it for yourself. You can talk a big game like you are trying to do something, but keep that crutch in your back pocket to fall back on...just in case.
A cop using excessive force abusing his authority, or was he forced into a circumstance that created a judgement call for self-defense? If it was an abuse of authority, what kind of training or work environment has been in that would let him feel safe enough to think he could get away with gunning down someone. Are his peers of the same mind? IF they knew he had that untouchable mindset, why did they just turn a blind eye to a problem just waiting to happen? If it was self-defense, would it have been feasible to apply a less lethal means, or was he truly in a situation where there was no other choice?
I responded to your post about race with an inclusion on race *shocker.*
Your point is that you're denying racist (and class) oppression.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 10:22:17
Quote: Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Department of Justice would conduct a third autopsy.
Why would there need to be a third autopsy? Wouldn't the first one be sufficient enough to determine the means of death, and the second one be sufficient enough for a forensic account of the events that took place?
Legal finegaling, mostly. Everyone wanting their own expert opinion "free of the bias" of the other sources.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-18 10:22:46
yes I'm aware of this, my point was simply looking at what should be the issue, not all the race ***. Take the whole paragraph in perspective, not just the part that is the easiest to debunk.
I said more or less the same thing as you a few pages back (I'll quote it after this post, so you don't have to find it). I tend to agree with most of that paragraph, sans that last little comment.
I disagree with the police in my town when they shoot native americans with knives. I disagree with police in other towns when they shoot unarmed teenagers.
I mean, I want to shoot teenagers just as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean we can, or should.
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-18 10:23:29
the man's not interested in holding down a specific race. the man is interested in holding down the poor. he's stroking a cat, laughing maniacally while all the chumps fight about race when they're all just as subjugated as the next.
suckers.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 10:24:10
yes I'm aware of this, my point was simply looking at what should be the issue, not all the race ***. Take the whole paragraph in perspective, not just the part that is the easiest to debunk.
I said more or less the same thing as you a few pages back (I'll quote it after this post, so you don't have to find it). I tend to agree with most of that paragraph, sans that last little comment.
I disagree with the police in my town when they shoot native americans with knives. I disagree with police in other towns when they shoot unarmed teenagers.
I mean, I want to shoot teenagers just as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean we can, or should.
How about it?
Cocky little ***, walking around like they know what's up. I mean, I'd want to shoot 14-year-old me. I mean, if you guys think I can be insufferable now...
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By Jetackuu 2014-08-18 10:24:58
yes I'm aware of this, my point was simply looking at what should be the issue, not all the race ***. Take the whole paragraph in perspective, not just the part that is the easiest to debunk.
I said more or less the same thing as you a few pages back (I'll quote it after this post, so you don't have to find it). I tend to agree with most of that paragraph, sans that last little comment.
I disagree with the police in my town when they shoot native americans with knives. I disagree with police in other towns when they shoot unarmed teenagers.
I mean, I want to shoot teenagers just as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean we can, or should. 21 feet sir, 21 feet.
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By fonewear 2014-08-18 10:25:30
I've watched enough CSI that the first two autopsies are practice and the third one is legit.
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-18 10:25:47
By fonewear 2014-08-18 10:26:22
Honestly I would be tired of looting by now. Is there nothing else to do in MO ?
They have a good baseball team instead of looting watch some baseball.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-18 10:27:27
I've watched enough CSI that the first two autopsies are practice and the third one is legit.
Yeah, but Scully almost always nailed it the first time.
So...redhead lesbian FBI agents > Strippers-turned-law enforcement? (Is she even still on the show? I stopped watching back when Warrick and Nick were still awesome).
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2014-08-18 10:27:38
well if it makes you feel any better that kid's parents are going to hit the fricken mother load in the wrongful death lawsuit. on the one hand, I'm sure they would rather have their kid back even if he was a jerk and it sucks he got killed...
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By fonewear 2014-08-18 10:28:44
well if it makes you feel any better that kid's parents are going to hit the fricken mother load in the wrongful death lawsuit. on the one hand, I'm sure they would rather have their kid back even if he was a jerk and it sucks he got killed...
Not to mention made for TV movies books lots of money to be made here.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-18 10:31:25
Yeah, but Scully almost always nailed it the first time.
TV people are dumb.
If they made a blatant rip-off of that show today, I would totally DVR that ***every week.
just make a sci-fi friday of it on FOX.
/shutup&takemymoney.jpeg
By fonewear 2014-08-18 10:32:22
YouTube Video Placeholder
To recap the events going on:
It all started with this:
Quote: The fatal shooting of an unarmed black St. Louis teen Saturday has caused an outcry of anger toward the city’s police, with locals rallying in the streets and widening uproar on social media.
Eighteen-year-old Michael Brown was being placed in a police squad car, eyewitness Piaget Crenshaw told the St. Louis Dispatch, when he put his hands in the air and attempted to flee. Several shots hit him as he ran away.
St. Louis County police chief Jon Belmar said Sunday that Brown struggled for the officer’s gun in the patrol car and that one shot was fired from the officer’s gun during the tussle. The officer fired multiple shots at Brown as he fled, Belmar said.
Anger flared the rest of the day after Brown’s death, as protesters screamed obscenities mixed with threats to “kill the police,” and more than 60 area police officers responded to the scene. More shots were reported, though no one was injured.
Then this happened:
Quote: An uneasy calm settled over Ferguson, Missouri, early Tuesday after a second night of violent clashes between law enforcement and residents protesting the police shooting of an unarmed black teenager, with another demonstration planned for mid-morning.
So far, more than 50 people have been arrested in protests following the death of Michael Brown, 18, in a largely black St. Louis suburb on Saturday after what police officials said was a struggle with a gun in a squad car.
The FBI has opened a civil rights investigation into the racially charged case, and St. Louis County is also investigating the shooting.
Police have not said why Brown was in the police car. At least one shot was fired during the struggle, and then the officer fired more shots before leaving the car, police said.
Chanting "hands up, don’t shoot," protesters overnight challenged police trying to seal off the neighborhood where Brown was shot, a low-income, high-crime area east of downtown Ferguson. Some protesters said they were outraged that Brown appeared to have been shot while holding his hands up in surrender, calling the shooting the latest in a long history of police harassment of area minorities.
"They brought this on themselves," said 25-year-old Adam Burcher of Ferguson, who stood outside the Ferguson Police Department on Monday night with a sign reading "Stop Killing."
Later on Tuesday, a protest is expected outside the St. Louis County prosecutor's office in Clayton, Missouri, and officials are also expected to identify the police officer involved in the shooting.
Followed by this:
Quote: Violence again erupted in the St. Louis area near the site of the police shooting death of an unarmed black teenager, according to local police, despite calls by U.S. President Barack Obama and activists for a measured response.
Early on Wednesday, a police officer shot and critically wounded a man who drew a handgun near the site of protests over the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown, a St. Louis County Police Department officer said.
Police responded about an hour after midnight to reports of four or five men with shotguns and wearing ski masks. They encountered multiple suspects running, one of whom pulled a gun on an officer, who fired at him, the county officer said. The man was taken to an area hospital.
Shortly after midnight, police fired tear gas into protesters who had confronted a line of officers after a far larger crowd dispersed, St. Louis County Police Department spokesman Brian Schellman said.
A photograph in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch showed a protester wearing a shirt with an American flag printed on it throwing a tear gas container back at the police. There were other media reports of bottles thrown at police.
The incidents followed two nights of violent protests, looting and arrests in Ferguson, the largely black St. Louis suburb where the shooting of Brown took place.
And now to bring you up to date:
Quote:
The Ferguson and St. Louis County police departments, which led the initial response to civil unrest in Ferguson, are both equipped with military equipment donated by the Defense Dept. Ferguson has received two vehicles, a trailer and a generator and St. Louis County has received nine utility trucks and two cargo trailers since 2012.
The equipment was received under the 1033 program which was enacted by Congress in 1992, and expanded in 1997. The program allows police forces to request and receive refurbished military equipment free of charge from the Pentagon. Police departments need only pay for shipping. Quote: President Barack Obama on Thursday said that police should respect protesters after four nights of racially charged demonstrations in Ferguson, Missouri, over the recent police killing of an unarmed black teenager.
"There is never an excuse for violence against police or for those who would use this tragedy as a cover for vandalism or looting," Obama said a televised remarks.
"There's also no excuse for police to use excessive force against peaceful protesters or to throw protesters in jail for lawfully exercising their first amendment rights," he said, speaking to the press from Edgartown, Massachusetts near where he is vacationing with his family.
After the shooting death of 18-year-old Michael Brown in the St. Louis suburb on Saturday, dozens of protesters have been arrested and the police have used riot gear, tear gas and rubber bullets to break up protests.
There have been peaceful vigils and demonstrations as well as episodes of looting and violence.
Governor Jay Nixon on Thursday also told community members at a church in the St. Louis area that "over the next few hours we are going to be making some shifts so that people will be ... safe." He did not specify what his steps would be made.
Don't forget this one too:
Quote: Two reporters covering the shooting of an unarmed black teen by a white police officer in a St. Louis suburb say they were arrested at a McDonald’s Wednesday evening in the commercial corridor where angry protests have occurred.
Wesley Lowery of The Washington Post and Ryan Reilly of The Huffington Post say they were working in the fast-food restaurant when SWAT officers came in to quickly clear the area. Both quickly tweeted about their arrests, detention and subsequent release without any charges.
Reilly tells KMOX News that officers were trying to clear out the restaurant.
“I was just packing up, and I evidently did not move quickly enough,” he says.
Reilly says an officer banged his head on the restaurant door and sarcastically apologized for it.
“None of them were wearing name badges, I don’t know why,” he says. “Over a dozen times I asked for an identity, I asked for a badge number, and all the officers standing around heard my request and ignored it.”
Reilly said he believes they were released so quickly because they were journalists. He realized during his interview with KMOX News that he was not read his Miranda Rights.
“I wasn’t even Mirandaized,” he says. “I did not even think about that until you just mentioned. I was never given…nothing…wow. I should really know that as a justice reporter. I sort of knew it by heart, but I was never given my rights, or anything like that was mentioned.”
Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson did not immediately return a cellphone message from The Associated Press seeking comment.
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