|
California debates 'yes means yes' sex assault law
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 12:33:16
Men should stop dressing like ***. You know the men I mean: Clean cut, trimmed beards, collared shirt, fedora, expensive watches looking all like they want some gay guy to rape 'em or for a woman to grope them. You definitely didn't come out for a beer, you were inviting others to sex you up.
I mean, guys are just asking for it. Why else would you leave your house dressed so well? Learn to dress a bit messier and maybe you won't get raped so much and ignored by the media because real men dont get raped.
You pussies.
[+]
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 12:33:30
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »tldr; (in my opinion)
-If you willingly have sex with someone while intoxicated due to drugs you willingly consumed, it should in no way be a crime on their behalf.
Agree here.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »-If you get raped due to actions that were blatantly irresponsible on your part, the rapist should suffer to the full penalty of the law, but I can still call you a tramp and dump you.
Not as much here.
This isn't very far from religions that insist on physically punishing rape victims for adultery.
[+]
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 12:35:04
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Men should stop dressing like ***. You know the men I mean: Clean cut, trimmed beards, collared shirt, fedora, expensive watches looking all like they want some gay guy to rape 'em or for a woman to grope them.
I mean, you guys are just asking for it. Why else would you leave your house dressed so well? Learn to dress a bit messier and maybe you won't get raped so much ans ignored by the media because real men dont get raped.
You pussies.
Chances are it's specifically a trilby. I've always liked the trilby, it's unfortunate that it's sort of become iconic in the douchebag population.
Edit: also, I've never even had a single man come on to me dressed like that. I mean, I'm not gay and I don't specifically want gay sex, but...hey. Anybody hitting on me would make me feel good some days.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 12:39:55
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »As I have said before, rape is rape. But accusing people of rape when you willingly allow yourself, and even pursued the notion of sex, that's what I'm talking about.
What is willing? A woman flirting with you can be construed as an invitation for sex. Or it could just be a woman flirting with you.
You segued into some argument about dress. Dress means nothing. Chick can have a low cut dress and it isn't an invitation for sex.
Quote: Let me ask you this: Do you think that all women are innocent?
Obviously not. Still not an excuse to somehow construe dress with invitation for rape. If women have absolutely no control over what they wear, then you would be 100% correct.
You are still correct in a way that, based on what they wear alone is not an invitation to sex, but it is a sign that sex is a possible option. You shouldn't be obtuse to that the manner of clothing opens possibilities.
Why do you think that the women who dress like *** are the ones who get free drinks all the time?
But I like how you changed your "invitation for sex" to "invitation for rape." It's like you are trying to set me up for another argument where you will try to make it sound like I'm defending rapists or something again. Dressing like that is not a sign that sex is a possible option... It shows more about your lack of understanding about why people do anything they do than that lol...
maybe they dress like *** because that gets them drinks for free? Why are you trying so hardto make things into something they most likely aren't? I'm sorry that your viewpoint of the world is narrow. Have you asked yourself why people do the things they do?
Have you even considered the possibility that women out there are actually nymphomaniacs? Do you even know what that means?
Do you also consider the possibility of women going around making false accusations of rape in hopes to get a quick settlement to support their lifestyles? Or even to want the attention of being lumped in as a "rape victim"?
You called me an attention *** once, do you even know what that means?
I doubt you understand anything I just wrote.
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13643
By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-08-11 12:40:58
Maybe girls should sign a waiver before deciding to get blackout drunk while hanging out with a bunch of college boys? I'm not justifying the behavior of the boys, but come on.... so what... are you saying that guys should just climb on top of any girl that gets black out drunk and have their way with them? Would you say the same if it happened to you? Some guy just violates you while you're passed out and well its your own fault?
There is no come on... People do stupid things it doesn't mean that others should get a pass on raping them for it...
People need to think about this more like its happening to them or their children... well honey... I know those boys raped you but honestly... you were totally asking for it by getting drunk liek that... now go to your room and think about what you did...
Did you even read the rest of the follow-up conversation before posting that, or is jumping to conclusions just easier for you? Did you even think before making this post?
Nice... comeback? When you say "are you saying that" and the very thing you say is refuted by a statement I made shortly after, I'm forced to question your reading comprehension.
[+]
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5381
By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-11 12:41:26
Maybe a link to his real account so he can stop hiding and either provide actual documentation or go back to lurking.
My main problem with the Charles McDowell reference is that I can't find anything on the actual journal: Forensic Science Digest.
Not all journals are available online or on Google scholarly, however information regarding the journal itself should be.
False Rape Allegations, Eugene J. Kanin, Ph.D., Archives of Sexual Behavior, VoL 23, No. I, 1994
Looking more into Eugene Kanin, his whole career is based on rape. Not sure what's worse studying rape or sperm....ewww.
Rape as a Function of Relative Sexual Frustration, Eugene J. Kanin Ph.D., Psychological Reports: Volume 52, Issue , pp. 133-134
Sexual aggression: A second look at the offended female, Eugene J. Kanin Ph.D., Stanley R. Parcell M.S., Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1977, Volume 6, Issue 1, pp 67-76
Date rapists: Differential sexual socialization and relative deprivation, Eugene J. Kanin Ph.D., Archives of Sexual Behavior
June 1985, Volume 14, Issue 3, pp 219-231
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 12:41:44
I think that Flavin and Spath are just trolling us all now.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 12:42:38
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »My main problem with this reference is that I can't find anything on the actual journal: The Forensic Scientist Digest. They don't have any online archives before 2009, that's the real problem.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 12:44:09
Chances are it's specifically a trilby. I've always liked the trilby, it's unfortunate that it's sort of become iconic in the douchebag population.
Hipsters will have to pry my trilby from my cold, dead hands before I stop wearing 'em. Well, or just wait till I get bored of wearing hats.
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 12:48:28
I'm sorry that your viewpoint of the world is narrow. Have you asked yourself why people do the things they do?
Have you even considered the possibility that women out there are actually nymphomaniacs? Do you even know what that means?
Do you also consider the possibility of women going around making false accusations of rape in hopes to get a quick settlement to support their lifestyles? Or even to want the attention of being lumped in as a "rape victim"?
You called me an attention *** once, do you even know what that means?
I doubt you understand anything I just wrote.
Nymphomaniacs? Lol. Ok.
Most women dress the way they do to feel pretty, just like dudes. Some overdress as a means of garnering the attention of the room where others just grab whatever isn't in the laundry bin because laziness. Just like dudes.
Regardless of intentions, it's never an invitation for a rape. Or sex. Or even to flirt. You might think so, but that doesn't make it so. Make your best pass at her, polish your pickup lines and go for it. It still doesn't mean shes out to get laid.
The amount of nymphos and people looking to cry rape for a quick payday are extremely low. Odds are, most people are out to mingle, make a few passes, toy with eachother through speech and if you're lucky hookup on the short or long term.
Some of you really have axes to sharpen with women. Gotta learn to accept being rebuffed dudes, sometimes you're just aiming for the wrong type of chicks.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 12:54:55
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Most women dress the way they do to feel pretty, just like dudes. Wait, seriously? You honestly think that guys pick their attire to feel "pretty"? Heck, your point would have been better to say "stylish," but then it wouldn't work with your supposed counterargument.
Let me ask you this:
If women do not desire to have sex through the way they dress, then why do they dress "sexy"?
I did not say that the dress signifies the need for sex alone, as I have stated in a previous post (which you skimmed over, obviously), but it does show a signal to males that they have the possibility of having sex that night. But only a possibility. Should I say that again, or do you want me to underline and italic the word for you to make sure you don't skip over it again?
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5381
By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-11 12:55:34
They don't have any online archives before 2009, that's the real problem.
No I think Forensic Science Digest is a fictitious academic journal. The fact that there is no information about the journal itself is a red flag. I understand not all journals publish their articles online, many academic journals are only available at university libraries or only issue online access to people at academic institutions. Regardless, their should still be some information regarding the journal or publisher.
[+]
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-08-11 12:56:43
I suspect this stupid, stupid conversation would be a lot different if we encouraged men in this country to both understand and acknowledge what it means to be sexually assaulted. Because I can guarantee the majority of men (and women) have been but have never had it explained to them.
This is also why there's so much knee-jerk antipathy in response to CA's current move. I don't know rape and sexual assault laws in most states, but where I live, what CA is trying to define is already what's on the books.
But, hey, let's just pretend that consent is something irrelevant, right, neocons? Who needs things like privacy or the sanctity of one's own body. Those silly values only align with paleoconservatism and liberalism. Apparently.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 12:57:00
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Regardless of intentions, it's never an invitation for a rape. Or sex. You might think so, but that doesn't make it so. Make your best pass at her, polish your pickup lines and go for it. It still doesn't mean shes out to get laid.
Really it's probably somewhere in the middle. They may not dress as an invitation for sex, but it is an invitation to approach for one reason or other, and sex may very well be a consideration. Or at least they want you to think it is.
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The amount of nymphos and people looking to cry rape for a quick payday are extremely low. Odds are, most people are out to mingle, make a few passes, toy with eachother through speech and if you're lucky hookup on the short or long term.
In my experience (and that of those I've spoken with on the topic) false rape accusations are more frequently about vindictiveness or the desire to hurt somebody more than about getting money. And those ones happen far more often than the money-inspired accusations, as far as I can tell. I admit this is anecdotal, however.
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Some of you really have axes to sharpen with women. Gotta learn to accept being rebuffed dudes, sometimes you're just aiming for the wrong type of chicks.
When all is said and done it's a bit of a conundrum because quite often the people willing to assign blame based on clothing or alcohol are the same people going after these women dressed like this and buying them drinks.
Not in all cases (I would like to think that due to the nature of this forum those reading here, regardless of their stance on the topic, take into account a little more than "durrr is she hot"?). But it's pretty common.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-08-11 12:58:32
If women do not desire to have sex through the way they dress, then why do they dress "sexy"? Most women dress the way they do to impress other women. It's social pecking order ***. The fact that fashion dictates a woman display a considerable portion of her mammaries is a function of the sexual objectification of women by the legions of breast fetishists (if you find breasts attractive, you are suffering from a fetish).
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 12:59:32
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »They don't have any online archives before 2009, that's the real problem.
No I think Forensic Science Digest is a fictitious academic journal. The fact that there is no information about the journal itself is a red flag. I understand not all journals publish their articles online, many academic journals are only available at university libraries or only issue online access to people at academic institutions. Regardless, their should still be some information regarding the journal or publisher. I wanted to read the article in question before I post an opinion about it first. That's why I neither yay or nay it.
Didn't consider the "fictitious" part though. Should have since most journals do not have "Digest" on it.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 12:59:55
If women do not desire to have sex through the way they dress, then why do they dress "sexy"? Most women dress the way they do to impress other women. It's social pecking order ***. The fact that fashion dictates a woman display a considerable portion of her mammaries is a function of the sexual objectification of women by the legions of breast fetishists (if you find breasts attractive, you are suffering from a fetish).
I wouldn't say "suffering"...
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 13:00:30
But, hey, let's just pretend that consent is something irrelevant, right Who's against consent again?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 13:01:26
Most women dress the way they do to impress other women. And men, as a means to mate.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 13:02:15
But, hey, let's just pretend that consent is something irrelevant, right Who's against consent again?
I'm not sure we're all sure who even has what opinion anymore in this thread.
We've come to the consensus of "rape bad, consensual sex good", but we're trying to figure out whether or not we can absolve ourselves of feeling bad for some victims because of their own actions.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 13:02:52
Most women dress the way they do to impress other women. And men, as a means to mate.
Ehhhh. I'm going to go with Ono here. You may be putting too much stock into what many women think of us.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 13:04:04
Pretty, stylish, fashionable, attractive, chic. Do you really think the word matters? People dress up to look good when they go out. My point still stands.
I'm sorry a man doesn't want to look pretty as it might offend his delicate sense of masculinity. Lets use a more machismo word like debonair. Whatever.
Quote: If women do not desire to have sex through the way they dress, then why do they dress "sexy"?
You really believe women only dress up for sex? Damn, even my geeky self is like "dude, get out moar. nao." My grandmother dresses sexy from time to time and lemme tell you, her sex life might as well be a nuclear wasteland.
People dress sexy for many reasons. For attention. To compete with friends. To get those looks. To hook up. To boost their egos. Because all their clothes are sexy. Because its tuesday. To feel awesome. To flirt. To get into a relationship with someone they like. To attend a formal affair. Because someone put them up to it. Because husbands and wife like dressing sharp.
The reasons go on.
You're merely walking yourself back now. No possibility of sex is implied until she makes a gesture/statement or other signal that sexytimes might be a possibility.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 13:06:48
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: » My grandmother dresses sexy from time to time and lemme tell you, her sex life might as well be a nuclear wasteland.
Hot, dry, and crawling with cockroaches?
[+]
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3621
By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-08-11 13:08:26
Most women dress the way they do to impress other women. And men, as a means to mate. Only in certain contexts. In most everyday situations, our gloriously homosocial culture worries exclusively about how we appear to our peers who are almost always of the same sex as we ourselves. If someone is dressed rather well at the office or the grocery store or the theatre (which may or may not be "sexy," whatever the hell that means), it's generally not an invitation to possible sexual contact. If you're going to ladies' night at the local bar, on the other hand, only the stone-dumbest *** on the planet would walk in looking attractive and not expect a certain amount of response.
But even in that context it doesn't make it right to do anything to that person. And having been the victim of unwanted groping (and worse), I just want that to be clear. I may be dressing to attract attention, but it's still my body and I still decide what happens to it. And if I get falling down drunk and you decide to take advantage of that, it's a felony. My bad decision does not obviate someone else's criminal acts.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 34187
By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 13:09:52
But, hey, let's just pretend that consent is something irrelevant, right Who's against consent again?
I'm not sure we're all sure who even has what opinion anymore in this thread.
We've come to the consensus of "rape bad, consensual sex good", but we're trying to figure out whether or not we can absolve ourselves of feeling bad for some victims because of their own actions. Well, it's easy to label others by reading what other people said about other's viewpoints (even though they skimmed posts). Kindof like basing your opinions on the Republican party by reading MSN articles.
I'm pretty sure nobody here is going to say that consent is irrelevant, and yet, Onorgul just said that all "neocons" said that.
Most women dress the way they do to impress other women. And men, as a means to mate.
Ehhhh. I'm going to go with Ono here. You may be putting too much stock into what many women think of us. I never said purposefully. I don't think there are many women out there who look at an outfit and said "boy, I hope I get raped or molested in this." Or even "boy, I'm going to have sex tonight!"
This is an underlying psychological idea, ingrained in our very being because of our primal urges to procreate. Like how men are going to pick the mates that look the healthiest in the group based by physical appearance for largest chances of passing genes over.
And don't get me started on makeup either.
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5381
By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-11 13:11:10
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »You're merely walking yourself back now. No possibility of sex is implied until she makes a gesture/statement or other signal that sexytimes might be a possibility.
What if they are hanging around a corner at 4am in a thong and a bra with 6-inch heals?
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 13:11:23
Most women dress the way they do to impress other women. And men, as a means to mate. Only in certain contexts. In most everyday situations, our gloriously homosocial culture worries exclusively about how we appear to our peers who are almost always of the same sex as we ourselves. If someone is dressed rather well at the office or the grocery store or the theatre (which may or may not be "sexy," whatever the hell that means), it's generally not an invitation to possible sexual contact. If you're going to ladies' night at the local bar, on the other hand, only the stone-dumbest *** on the planet would walk in looking attractive and not expect a certain amount of response.
But even in that context it doesn't make it right to do anything to that person. And having been the victim of unwanted groping (and worse), I just want that to be clear. I may be dressing to attract attention, but it's still my body and I still decide what happens to it. And if I get falling down drunk and you decide to take advantage of that, it's a felony. My bad decision does not obviate someone else's criminal acts.
But Comeatmebro will still dump you because of your social faux pas.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 13:11:53
Bahamut.Baconwrap said: »Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »You're merely walking yourself back now. No possibility of sex is implied until she makes a gesture/statement or other signal that sexytimes might be a possibility.
What if they are hanging around a corner at 4am in a thong and a bra with 6-inch heals?
Undercover cop.
Step away.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4746
By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 13:13:01
And don't get me started on makeup either.
There is no way makeup is for anything but other women.
By Altimaomega 2014-08-11 13:14:21
Still no link to the actual study, no record of it on google scholar, and no archives of the Forensic Science Digest. Don't you find that odd? I'm not arguing either way on rape statistics at this point, but singling out a handful of studies doesn't demonstrate anything significant especially when they appear to report widely different results under differing methods.
Don't you ever get tired of being a hypocrite?
[+]
Quote: SAN DIEGO (AP) — College students have heard a similar refrain for years in campaigns to stop sexual assault: No means no.
Now, as universities around the country that are facing pressure over the handling of rape allegations adopt policies to define consensual sex, California is poised to take it a step further. Lawmakers are considering what would be the first-in-the-nation measure requiring all colleges that receive public funds to set a standard for when "yes means yes."
Defining consensual sex is a growing trend by universities in an effort to do more to protect victims. From the University of California system to Yale, schools have been adopting standards to distinguish when consent was given for a sexual activity and when it was not.
Legislation passed by California's state Senate in May and coming before the Assembly this month would require all schools that receive public funds for student financial assistance to set a so-called "affirmative consent standard" that could be used in investigating and adjudicating sexual assault allegations. That would be defined as "an affirmative, unambiguous and conscious decision" by each party to engage in sexual activity.
Silence or lack of resistance does not constitute consent. The legislation says it's also not consent if the person is drunk, drugged, unconscious or asleep.
Lawmakers say consent can be nonverbal, and universities with similar policies have outlined examples as maybe a nod of the head or moving in closer to the person.
Several state legislatures, including Maryland, Texas and Connecticut, introduced bills in the past year to push colleges to do more after a White House task force reported that 1 in 5 female college students is a victim of sexual assault. The U.S. Education Department also took the unprecedented step of releasing the names of schools facing federal investigation for the way they handle sexual abuse allegations.
But no state legislation has gone as far as California's bill in requiring a consent standard.
Critics say the state is overstepping its bounds. The Los Angeles Times in an editorial after the bill passed the state Senate 27-4 wrote that it raises questions as to whether it is "reasonable" or "enforceable." The legislation is based on the White House task force's recommendations.
"It seems extremely difficult and extraordinarily intrusive to micromanage sex so closely as to tell young people what steps they must take in the privacy of their own dorm rooms," the newspaper said.
Some fear navigating the murky waters of consent spells trouble for universities.
"Frequently these cases involve two individuals, both of whom maybe were under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and it can be very tricky to ascertain whether consent was obtained," said Ada Meloy, general counsel of the American Council on Education, which represents college presidents.
She said schools need to guarantee a safe environment for students, while law enforcement is best suited for handling more serious sexual assault cases.
John F. Banzhaf III, a George Washington University's Law School professor, believes having university disciplinary panels interpret vague cues and body language will open the door for more lawsuits.
The legal definition of rape in most states means the perpetrator used force or the threat of force against the victim, but the California legislation could set the stage in which both parties could accuse each other of sexual assault, he said.
"This bill would very, very radically change the definition of rape," he said.
University of California at Berkeley student Meghan Warner, 20, said that's a good thing. She said she was sexually assaulted during her freshman year by two men at a fraternity but didn't report it because she believed "that unless it was a stranger at night with a weapon who attacked you when you were walking home, that it wasn't rape. It's just a crappy thing that happened." She now runs campus workshops to teach students what constitutes consent.
"Most students don't know what consent is," she said. "I've asked at the workshops how many people think if a girl is blacked out drunk that it's OK to have sex with her. The amount of people who raised their hands was just startling."
Defining consent may be easy to do on paper, said Laura Nguyen, a 21-year-old San Diego State University senior, but "we're talking about college students out at night and the reality is there's not just 'yes' or 'no.' There is a lot of in between. I really think it depends on the situation."
The legislation initially stated that "if there is confusion as to whether a person has consented or continues to consent to sexual activity, it is essential that the participants stop the activity until the confusion can be clearly resolved."
After some interpreted that as asking people to stop after each kiss to get a verbal agreement before going to the next level, the bill was amended to say consent must be "ongoing" and "can be revoked at any time."
"California needs to provide our students with education, resources, consistent policies and justice so that the system is not stacked against survivors," state Sen. Kevin de Leon, a Los Angeles Democrat, said in promoting the bill.
Supporters say investigators would have to determine whether consent had been given by both parties instead of focusing on whether the complainant resisted or said no.
Denice Labertew of the California Coalition Against Sexual Assault said the bill fosters a cultural change: "There's a lot of criticism around affirmative consent because it requires us to change the way we normally think about this."
Source
|
|