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California debates 'yes means yes' sex assault law
Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-08-11 10:20:12
....
Guys, women don't give "affirmative yes" and instead use body language and sub-communication. It's not a defined moment of "go/no-no" but a series of escalations with the guy expected to be the one who initiates the escalation.... More than once in my wonderfully misspent youth:
He "what are you doing to me?"
Me "seducing you, should I stop?"
Mind you this is before the term "women's liberation" was invented.
Edit:
paged....
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 10:21:12
I actually think that women shouldn't have to dress like ***...at all. But that's just my opinion.
But then again, my attractiveness of a mate involves a little less than what size breasts she has, and more of what type of person she is. And even then, I'm wrong about her 99.99999999999999999% of the time and she is an *** like the rest of them.
Still looking though for that one woman who isn't a complete ***.
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-11 10:22:19
You're half right.
See, you would need to lock your car...
...if people weren't thieving scum.
well we got there eventually! now I missed whatever point this is supposed to be.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-08-11 10:24:25
personally, i think they're going about this the wrong way
if we allowed women to retroactively rescind consent on the basis of a guy misleading them, failing to disclose personal information, or being terrible in bed, we'd have 100% less false rape accusations
i propose this as the only efficient solution to the affront to women's rights that is the current legal system
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-11 10:25:55
ok... for all you idiots out there that still don't get it...
Dressing like a "***" is not inviting a guy/girl to rape you... It is not giving them incentive it is nothing more than someone going out and dressing like that... have an opinion on whether you like it or not but and lets make this clear IN NO WAY IS DRESSING IN A PROVOCATIVE WAY INVITING SOMEONE TO SEXUALLY ASSAULT THEM. DRINKING ALCOHOL TO THE POINT OF BLACKING OUT IS ALSO NOT AN INVITATION TO GET RAPED. For all of those too dumb to realize this well there probably isn't any hope for you...
If there is any doubt in your mind that someone wants you... any doubt at all then you shouldn't *** em.
Noone is out there looking to get raped so they are clearly not inviting you to do it and just because they're dressed a certain way or drinking alcohol does not give anyone a free pass to *** em without consent... it is not someones fault for getting raped... It's the scumbag that does the raping...
God you people... wth is wrong with you...
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-08-11 10:27:16
protip: not everyone is a castrated liberal nutjob
nobody is advocating that we rape the drunk, but we aren't obligated to feel sorry for a woman who gets shitfaced around guys she doesn't know well
how would you feel if your gf was out drinking to the point she couldn't maintain consciousness around a half dozen guys she didn't know? since she's not inviting rape, it wouldn't bother you would it?
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 10:27:16
@ Flavin: Read this again.
Same goes for those who dress like a tramp and accepts free booze from some sleaze. The accepting part is what traps them, because they acknowledge that their time and inhibition is the sleaze's to use. Taking enough drinks to lose any sort of rational thought is also a sign of accepting the consequences.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 10:28:27
I actually think that women shouldn't have to dress like ***...at all. But that's just my opinion.
But then again, my attractiveness of a mate involves a little less than what size breasts she has, and more of what type of person she is. And even then, I'm wrong about her 99.99999999999999999% of the time and she is an *** like the rest of them.
Still looking though for that one woman who isn't a complete ***.
I think people should be able to dress however they want...but that goes all around and is almost a different topic entirely. We live in a society that's awfully accepting of some pretty stupid stuff, but turns its nose up at things that are pretty tame. Same goes for tattoos/etc. Anyhow. Not the point.
A significant problem we have in this country is that we raise girls to be pretty. Everyone always tells little girls how pretty they are, how cute they are in that outfit, etc., etc.
It's pretty well established for them before they can even talk that "being pretty" must be pretty important for how much they hear it.
So if girls are generally perceived as attractive, they don't necessarily have to have anything else going for them. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of beautiful women out there who are also any or all of smart, charming, funny, clever, talented, etc.
But we (in the U.S. at least) put so much stock into "pretty" that in most cases -- if they try -- a girl can get by on that alone. Which can lead to the issues KN is describing here.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 10:31:23
Q. 23a
Do you want the D?
Yes ___
No ___
If unsure, skip to Q25.
Q. 25
How do you feel about the D?
Very Strongly ____
Strongly ____
Indifferent ____
Against ____
Strongly Against ____
Q. 26
How can we help improve the D?
___________________________________________________________
(Please limit your response to 100 words or less)
Reciever of the D's signature:
________________________________
(Please print.)
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 10:32:19
I think people should be able to dress however they want...but that goes all around and is almost a different topic entirely. We live in a society that's awfully accepting of some pretty stupid stuff, but turns its nose up at things that are pretty tame. Same goes for tattoos/etc. Anyhow. Not the point.
A significant problem we have in this country is that we raise girls to be pretty. Everyone always tells little girls how pretty they are, how cute they are in that outfit, etc., etc.
It's pretty well established for them before they can even talk that "being pretty" must be pretty important for how much they hear it.
So if girls are generally perceived as attractive, they don't necessarily have to have anything else going for them. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of beautiful women out there who are also any or all of smart, charming, funny, clever, talented, etc.
But we (in the U.S. at least) put so much stock into "pretty" that in most cases -- if they try -- a girl can get by on that alone. Which can lead to the issues KN is describing here. That is the full issue right there.
If we want equality in the nation, we either have to stop coddling women at a very young age about the value of looks, or start coddling men to be the same.
I don't know about you, but I would prefer the "stop" part over the "start" one.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 10:34:02
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »protip: not everyone is a castrated liberal nutjob
nobody is advocating that we rape the drunk, but we aren't obligated to feel sorry for a woman who gets shitfaced around guys she doesn't know well
how would you feel if your gf was out drinking to the point she couldn't maintain consciousness around a half dozen guys she didn't know? since she's not inviting rape, it wouldn't bother you would it?
"castrated liberal nutjub" is your description of who, precisely?
Your fatuous hypothetical situation isn't really helping things, but the fact of that matter is that, no. She's not inviting rape and anyone who took advantage of her would still be a rapist. Do I feel as bad for her as I would for someone whose home is broken into and she's roused from sleep and raped by an intruder?
Maybe not. But I still feel bad.
Not hard to understand, really.
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Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 10:35:18
I think people should be able to dress however they want...but that goes all around and is almost a different topic entirely. We live in a society that's awfully accepting of some pretty stupid stuff, but turns its nose up at things that are pretty tame. Same goes for tattoos/etc. Anyhow. Not the point.
A significant problem we have in this country is that we raise girls to be pretty. Everyone always tells little girls how pretty they are, how cute they are in that outfit, etc., etc.
It's pretty well established for them before they can even talk that "being pretty" must be pretty important for how much they hear it.
So if girls are generally perceived as attractive, they don't necessarily have to have anything else going for them. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of beautiful women out there who are also any or all of smart, charming, funny, clever, talented, etc.
But we (in the U.S. at least) put so much stock into "pretty" that in most cases -- if they try -- a girl can get by on that alone. Which can lead to the issues KN is describing here. That is the full issue right there.
If we want equality in the nation, we either have to stop coddling women at a very young age about the value of looks, or start coddling men to be the same.
I don't know about you, but I would prefer the "stop" part over the "start" one.
I dunno. I wouldn't mind feeling pretty. *bats eyelashes*
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-08-11 10:36:27
.... those who dress like a tramp and accepts free booze from some sleaze.... Define "dress like a tramp".
And remember that I am a survivor of the '60s and the sexual revolution. What was normal and in fashion then was skirts as short as the XIV WHM skirt and see through tops.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-08-11 10:36:58
"castrated liberal nutjub" is your description of who, precisely? flavin at this point, but he's hardly the only person on xiah who could be described that way
Quote: Your fatuous hypothetical situation isn't really helping things, but the fact of that matter is that, no. She's not inviting rape and anyone who took advantage of her would still be a rapist.
Not hard to understand. So, you're telling me you'd have no problems if someone in a long-term relationship with you went drinking to the point she was ready to black out with a bunch of college guys? Whether she got raped or not, that behavior wouldn't have any impact on your relationship?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 10:36:59
Quote: nobody is advocating that we rape the drunk, but we aren't obligated to feel sorry for a woman who gets shitfaced around guys she doesn't know well
Keep making excuses bro.
2014 and people think getting drunk is an invitation for women to get raped. All because a "bunch of guys are around". You people make me disgraced to be a 21st century male given your standards are ***.
I await all the arguments from biology or whatever regarding excusemaking for rape. There is no excuse for it, period.
Would you rob a drunk person of their wallet? Even if the cash is spilling out of it?
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-11 10:37:37
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »protip: not everyone is a castrated liberal nutjob
nobody is advocating that we rape the drunk, but we aren't obligated to feel sorry for a woman who gets shitfaced around guys she doesn't know well
how would you feel if your gf was out drinking to the point she couldn't maintain consciousness around a half dozen guys she didn't know? since she's not inviting rape, it wouldn't bother you would it? You're nmot advocating but you're sitting there saying well the victim was asking for it so screw that person... I'm not saying you should be there holding their hand and giving them a tissue... but even the thought that the victim in this situation is responsible is ludicrous... making excuses for the rapist like oh well that person was just looking too damn hot it's her fault I couldn't keep my self from just *** the ***out of em.
This is by far the dumbest thing I've ever heard lol... Inviting rape? Are you serious? This is why I call people like you HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE... not the regular kind of HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE... the special kind of HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE... Hey this person isn't acting the way I think they should so I'm going to demonize them and not only that... I'm going to tell you that this person is just asking to get assaulted... What part of noone wants this don't you get? No one is inviting anything and accepting rape as an outcome in our siciety is just sickening...
This has nothing to do with liberal or conservative... this is *** common sense...
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-11 10:39:23
@ Flavin: Read this again.
Same goes for those who dress like a tramp and accepts free booze from some sleaze. The accepting part is what traps them, because they acknowledge that their time and inhibition is the sleaze's to use. Taking enough drinks to lose any sort of rational thought is also a sign of accepting the consequences. Again. No it is not.
It's also funny to me because If I asked any one of you defending the rapists right here if you would do what they did you'd say no. right?
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-11 10:39:55
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »You people make me disgraced to be a 21st century male given your standards are ***.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 10:41:46
Define "dress like a tramp". Women who looks like their sole profession is to spread their legs and take it.
Doesn't matter if they are a prostitute or not, if they dress like you want to have sex, then don't complain when you do.
(again, rape drugs and actual rape excluded from the above statement. This disclaimer is for those who get their panties in a twist of you don't put this disclaimer in every post...)
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 10:42:55
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »"castrated liberal nutjub" is your description of who, precisely? flavin at this point, but he's hardly the only person on xiah who could be described that way
Quote: Your fatuous hypothetical situation isn't really helping things, but the fact of that matter is that, no. She's not inviting rape and anyone who took advantage of her would still be a rapist.
Not hard to understand. So, you're telling me you'd have no problems if someone in a long-term relationship with you went drinking to the point she was ready to black out with a bunch of college guys? Whether she got raped or not, that behavior wouldn't have any impact on your relationship?
I said it was a fatuous hypothetical situation for a reason. If you're in a relationship where that happens, I question your understanding of a healthy relationship.
That said, my wife (then girlfriend) in college regularly went drinking with guys (and other girls) without me. Just like I went drinking around cute girls without her. And nothing happened in either case, because we trust each other and our friends.
Why a single female would go out, alone, drinking to get blackout drunk with a group of men she doesn't know...I'm not saying it never happens? But...I would suspect a woman that does that is into whatever might happen (which, if that's her thing, cool) and it's therefore not going to be rape.
But yeah. In the event that a woman did that and did so not wanting to have sex, yes. Still rape.
Edit: re: my last sentence there ^
That situation actually happens with actually HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE people more frequently than you'd think. Mental retardation doesn't always mean Downs Syndrome. You have people with low intelligence who aren't good at reading social cues, don't understand the consequences of what may happen, and are entirely too trusting. So she/he may go out partying with people they don't know well expecting just to have a good time and end up being raped or otherwise violated/assaulted.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 10:43:59
@ Flavin: Read this again.
Same goes for those who dress like a tramp and accepts free booze from some sleaze. The accepting part is what traps them, because they acknowledge that their time and inhibition is the sleaze's to use. Taking enough drinks to lose any sort of rational thought is also a sign of accepting the consequences. Again. No it is not.
It's also funny to me because If I asked any one of you defending the rapists right here if you would do what they did you'd say no. right? You are talking about something else. Rapists are rapists. They are in their own little category.
Women who sleep with men, and then claims rape because they couldn't say no to a few drinks are what I'm talking about. And there are more of those out there than you are willing to admit.
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 10:44:18
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Would you rob a drunk person of their wallet? Even if the cash is spilling out of it?
I already tried this with the phone thing. The answer is apparently "yes", or at least, "No, but if someone did it, it's the victim's fault for making it available".
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-08-11 10:45:23
Quote: Why a single female would go out, alone, drinking to get blackout drunk with a group of men she doesn't know...I'm not saying it never happens? But...I would suspect a woman that does that is into whatever might happen (which, if that's her thing, cool) and it's therefore not going to be rape.
You mean to say that a woman getting into a situation like that... asked for it? I thought they had no responsibility for what they put into their body or what situation they were in.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 10:49:26
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Would you rob a drunk person of their wallet? Even if the cash is spilling out of it?
I already tried this with the phone thing. The answer is apparently "yes", or at least, "No, but if someone did it, it's the victim's fault for making it available". How about driving drunk?
You know that you are intoxicated when you get behind the wheel, like how a woman knows that they are going out to attract a few drinks for free by dressing like they are.
Then if/when the drunk driver hits a tree/car/person and gets permanently disabled....are you going to blame the drunk driver at all for putting themselves in that situation?
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2014-08-11 10:50:25
Define "dress like a tramp". Women who looks like their sole profession is to spread their legs and take it.
Doesn't matter if they are a prostitute or not, if they dress like you want to have sex, then don't complain when you do.
(again, rape drugs and actual rape excluded from the above statement. This disclaimer is for those who get their panties in a twist of you don't put this disclaimer in every post...) Dress like yuo want to have sex? lmao...
Yes judge... the person was clearly dressed like they wanted to have sex so I just gave em what they wanted you know even though they told me they didn't want it or were unconscious but I could tell they wanted it for real so its cool...
Bismarck.Ramyrez
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-08-11 10:52:38
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »Quote: Why a single female would go out, alone, drinking to get blackout drunk with a group of men she doesn't know...I'm not saying it never happens? But...I would suspect a woman that does that is into whatever might happen (which, if that's her thing, cool) and it's therefore not going to be rape.
You mean to say that a woman getting into a situation like that... asked for it? I thought they had no responsibility for what they put into their body or what situation they were in.
That's not what I said, but you may have a promising career in politics trying to twist words.
What I said was I have a hard time seeing an otherwise able-minded person (see my edit) who doesn't want to something sexual to happen jaunting off to get plastered with a group of people they don't know well. It doesn't make sense. It's a terrible example on your part because I can't see anyone (again, with the proper mental faculties) doing this. It's a stupid thing to do.
What I'm saying, though, is that even in playing along with your stupid suggested situation, rape is still rape.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 10:53:59
Define "dress like a tramp". Women who looks like their sole profession is to spread their legs and take it.
Doesn't matter if they are a prostitute or not, if they dress like you want to have sex, then don't complain when you do.
(again, rape drugs and actual rape excluded from the above statement. This disclaimer is for those who get their panties in a twist of you don't put this disclaimer in every post...) Dress like yuo want to have sex? lmao...
Yes judge... the person was clearly dressed like they wanted to have sex so I just gave em what they wanted you know even though they told me they didn't want it or were unconscious but I could tell they wanted it for real so its cool... So, to you rape means having sex, even if they want it while intoxicated.
I won't tell you how many times I have driven drunk women to their homes and they wanted to hump my lights out because of it. So, I guess those times that I took them on their offer, according to you, I "raped" them.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 10:54:18
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Would you rob a drunk person of their wallet? Even if the cash is spilling out of it?
I already tried this with the phone thing. The answer is apparently "yes", or at least, "No, but if someone did it, it's the victim's fault for making it available". How about driving drunk?
You know that you are intoxicated when you get behind the wheel, like how a woman knows that they are going out to attract a few drinks for free by dressing like they are.
Then if/when the drunk driver hits a tree/car/person and gets permanently disabled....are you going to blame the drunk driver at all for putting themselves in that situation?
Cmon, really? Driving Drunk?
The reason driving drunk is illegal is because you can hurt, maim or kill other people. Dressing any way you see fit isn't an invitation for people to rape you or for others to say 'you deserved it.'
You're doing a horrible job of trying to justify rape. Just as people shouldn't hit eachother male or female, no one should be putting their hands on a woman or forcing sex upon them because they're dressed a certain way.
For the record, the prostitute example is silly. Both parties know this is pay to play and the provocative dress is just to facilitate the transaction. Some prostitutes just dress normally.
Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-08-11 10:55:51
Seriously? What the Hell is wrong with some of you? You act like gals being ***faced is the normative of rape, and justify by saying that they need to learn how to conduct themselves? You learn. It's a crash course but you learn.
Stay in groups and don't accept drinks from strangers. If a guy is relentlessly bothering you and you have a guy-pal around, plop down beside the guy-pal, so maybe they'll get the damn message. If just with gals, stay in twos to lose the annoying ones and reconvene at another table or area.
Also, would you prefer every girl wear a garbage bag? Women don't choose their clothing to make you feel good, ***!
Casting blame on one gender or the other is wrong, because there's scumbags within both genders. Jesus!
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 10:55:53
It's funny how easily these poor examples are shattered.
If a male goes out without his shirt on, is that an invitation for a gay man to hold you down and ravage you? Or for that unattractive old lady to grab your crotch? Nope.
But hey, you invited it. Should have dressed more modestly. Wear a turtleneck you slob.
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Quote: SAN DIEGO (AP) — College students have heard a similar refrain for years in campaigns to stop sexual assault: No means no.
Now, as universities around the country that are facing pressure over the handling of rape allegations adopt policies to define consensual sex, California is poised to take it a step further. Lawmakers are considering what would be the first-in-the-nation measure requiring all colleges that receive public funds to set a standard for when "yes means yes."
Defining consensual sex is a growing trend by universities in an effort to do more to protect victims. From the University of California system to Yale, schools have been adopting standards to distinguish when consent was given for a sexual activity and when it was not.
Legislation passed by California's state Senate in May and coming before the Assembly this month would require all schools that receive public funds for student financial assistance to set a so-called "affirmative consent standard" that could be used in investigating and adjudicating sexual assault allegations. That would be defined as "an affirmative, unambiguous and conscious decision" by each party to engage in sexual activity.
Silence or lack of resistance does not constitute consent. The legislation says it's also not consent if the person is drunk, drugged, unconscious or asleep.
Lawmakers say consent can be nonverbal, and universities with similar policies have outlined examples as maybe a nod of the head or moving in closer to the person.
Several state legislatures, including Maryland, Texas and Connecticut, introduced bills in the past year to push colleges to do more after a White House task force reported that 1 in 5 female college students is a victim of sexual assault. The U.S. Education Department also took the unprecedented step of releasing the names of schools facing federal investigation for the way they handle sexual abuse allegations.
But no state legislation has gone as far as California's bill in requiring a consent standard.
Critics say the state is overstepping its bounds. The Los Angeles Times in an editorial after the bill passed the state Senate 27-4 wrote that it raises questions as to whether it is "reasonable" or "enforceable." The legislation is based on the White House task force's recommendations.
"It seems extremely difficult and extraordinarily intrusive to micromanage sex so closely as to tell young people what steps they must take in the privacy of their own dorm rooms," the newspaper said.
Some fear navigating the murky waters of consent spells trouble for universities.
"Frequently these cases involve two individuals, both of whom maybe were under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and it can be very tricky to ascertain whether consent was obtained," said Ada Meloy, general counsel of the American Council on Education, which represents college presidents.
She said schools need to guarantee a safe environment for students, while law enforcement is best suited for handling more serious sexual assault cases.
John F. Banzhaf III, a George Washington University's Law School professor, believes having university disciplinary panels interpret vague cues and body language will open the door for more lawsuits.
The legal definition of rape in most states means the perpetrator used force or the threat of force against the victim, but the California legislation could set the stage in which both parties could accuse each other of sexual assault, he said.
"This bill would very, very radically change the definition of rape," he said.
University of California at Berkeley student Meghan Warner, 20, said that's a good thing. She said she was sexually assaulted during her freshman year by two men at a fraternity but didn't report it because she believed "that unless it was a stranger at night with a weapon who attacked you when you were walking home, that it wasn't rape. It's just a crappy thing that happened." She now runs campus workshops to teach students what constitutes consent.
"Most students don't know what consent is," she said. "I've asked at the workshops how many people think if a girl is blacked out drunk that it's OK to have sex with her. The amount of people who raised their hands was just startling."
Defining consent may be easy to do on paper, said Laura Nguyen, a 21-year-old San Diego State University senior, but "we're talking about college students out at night and the reality is there's not just 'yes' or 'no.' There is a lot of in between. I really think it depends on the situation."
The legislation initially stated that "if there is confusion as to whether a person has consented or continues to consent to sexual activity, it is essential that the participants stop the activity until the confusion can be clearly resolved."
After some interpreted that as asking people to stop after each kiss to get a verbal agreement before going to the next level, the bill was amended to say consent must be "ongoing" and "can be revoked at any time."
"California needs to provide our students with education, resources, consistent policies and justice so that the system is not stacked against survivors," state Sen. Kevin de Leon, a Los Angeles Democrat, said in promoting the bill.
Supporters say investigators would have to determine whether consent had been given by both parties instead of focusing on whether the complainant resisted or said no.
Denice Labertew of the California Coalition Against Sexual Assault said the bill fosters a cultural change: "There's a lot of criticism around affirmative consent because it requires us to change the way we normally think about this."
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