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California debates 'yes means yes' sex assault law
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 14:12:20
I don't always rape but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.
Stay slutty, my friends.
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By Bahamut.Baconwrap 2014-08-11 14:16:00
naturally the nutjobs start by blaming the victim then move on to citing obscure and incredulous case studies as proof that there are no victims
Hey hey! I am not saying there are no victims. I just said this law is good for removing ambiguity. That's one of the reasons I purposely didn't post Eugene Kanin's statistic result in his study.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-11 14:19:09
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-11 15:35:07
This law is good for nothing. How hard is it to say "no"? It's clearly easier to say "no" than "yes"!
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 15:38:36
This law is good for nothing. How hard is it to say "no"? It's clearly easier to say "no" than "yes"! Not law, it's a debate.
California is trying to figure out what "yes" means.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-11 15:43:41
"No" means "no" just isn't good enough? and its a proposed law isn't it? I'm not incorrect in referring to it as "law", just unspecific.
I guess that's not good enough for the feminazis tho. Misandry > everything after all...
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 15:45:44
"No" means "no" just isn't good enough? They are still figuring that out in California too.
No wonder the rest of the nation considers California "special"
and its a proposed law isn't it? As far as I know, it isn't being debated in the state legislation.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 15:47:48
"No" means "no" just isn't good enough? and its a proposed law isn't it? I'm not incorrect in referring to it as "law", just unspecific.
I guess that's not good enough for the feminazis tho. Misandry > everything after all...
They're trying to clearly define that a person who isn't conscious or unable to protest isn't consenting. Much the same way we have laws that clearly define that a 12 year old isn't capable of giving consent, whether they say "no" or not.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-11 15:48:29
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
It's just more misandry from certain women's groups...
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 15:51:59
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy.
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-11 15:54:39
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy.
heh, don't ever say sexism doesn't occur for men....
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By Enuyasha 2014-08-11 15:55:14
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy. Isnt it that in most states if you are otherwise unable to consciously make the decision without impairment you cant legally give consent?
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-08-11 15:56:45
See the law already exists. It only solidifies my claim that this is good for nothing.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 15:57:42
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy. Isnt it that in most states if you are otherwise unable to consciously make the decision without impairment you cant legally give consent? That would be the prosecution's case though.
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Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2014-08-11 15:58:20
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
78% of reported rape cases in the USA in 2008 were committed by men. so in this instance, yes, we are the predators most of the time. (cops like statistics)
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-08-11 16:00:18
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
78% of reported rape cases in the USA in 2008 were committed by men. so in this instance, yes, we are the predators most of the time. (cops like statistics) Wait, that means that men actually were raped by women?
Or women raped by women?
Is this like the France War record where the only war France has ever won was against itself?
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 16:01:18
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy. Isnt it that in most states if you are otherwise unable to consciously make the decision without impairment you cant legally give consent?
I know it is in Idaho, but I can't say for other states... but... Who makes that determination? Perceivable, there would be only 2 people present, and if one person is very drunk, chances are the other is. So, who's judgement is credible? The girl who says she didn't know what was happening and couldn't fight back or the guy who says she acted like she was enjoying it and never said to stop? There is definitely some merit in positive confirmation, but requiring both parties to be sober enough to enter a legal agreement is pretty pathetic.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 16:04:05
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
78% of reported rape cases in the USA in 2008 were committed by men. so in this instance, yes, we are the predators most of the time. (cops like statistics) Wait, that means that men actually were raped by women?
Or women raped by women?
Is this like the France War record where the only war France has ever won was against itself?
Woman do commit crimes, even sexual and violent crimes.
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Cerberus.Tikal
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-08-11 16:04:52
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
78% of reported rape cases in the USA in 2008 were committed by men. so in this instance, yes, we are the predators most of the time. (cops like statistics) Wait, that means that men actually were raped by women?
Or women raped by women? Both.
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Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 16:04:56
Thank the male-dominated legal system for putting little emphasis on sexual abuse against men committed by women.
By Enuyasha 2014-08-11 16:05:02
See the law already exists. It only solidifies my claim that this is good for nothing. I believe its like this in LA, but maybe not California yet. The states get to pick and choose what they want, id rather there be a blanket federal law that covers all rape crimes in the country than get caught up in some backwards law in a state by state situation.
Sorta thing needs to be said about age of consent as well, its stupid that every single state has like 1-4 varying ages in which a person suddenly is able to have sex legally.
but thats a different discussion.
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy. Isnt it that in most states if you are otherwise unable to consciously make the decision without impairment you cant legally give consent? That would be the prosecution's case though. Yup.
By Enuyasha 2014-08-11 16:08:01
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy. Isnt it that in most states if you are otherwise unable to consciously make the decision without impairment you cant legally give consent?
I know it is in Idaho, but I can't say for other states... but... Who makes that determination? Perceivable, there would be only 2 people present, and if one person is very drunk, chances are the other is. So, who's judgement is credible? The girl who says she didn't know what was happening and couldn't fight back or the guy who says she acted like she was enjoying it and never said to stop? There is definitely some merit in positive confirmation, but requiring both parties to be sober enough to enter a legal agreement is pretty pathetic. Yea, but if they were both drunk there shouldnt be any legal recourse...cause legally both werent able to make that decision, but they went ahead with it anyway. "Well, we were both drunk" in a testimony should just automatically be ruled a mistrial.
(Edit: well, depending on if your state has these laws, and blah, etc.)
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-11 16:08:40
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
It's just more misandry from certain women's groups... Well you shouldn't have gotten drunk and started beating on women at a party to begin with.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-08-11 16:15:16
So if I goto a party, get drunk, hit on a girl and we both end up having sloppy sex I can call rape cause she didn't seek my consent?
Or am I the only one at fault cause you know, I'm a guy, and guys are predators?
Legally speaking, who knows, by current standards if neither of you protested, it would be considered consensual. But, I'd imagine that it would depend on the police/prosecutor if the girl pointed the finger at you, since that's the social stigma of being a guy. Isnt it that in most states if you are otherwise unable to consciously make the decision without impairment you cant legally give consent?
I know it is in Idaho, but I can't say for other states... but... Who makes that determination? Perceivable, there would be only 2 people present, and if one person is very drunk, chances are the other is. So, who's judgement is credible? The girl who says she didn't know what was happening and couldn't fight back or the guy who says she acted like she was enjoying it and never said to stop? There is definitely some merit in positive confirmation, but requiring both parties to be sober enough to enter a legal agreement is pretty pathetic. Yea, but if they were both drunk there shouldnt be any legal recourse...cause legally both werent able to make that decision, but they went ahead with it anyway. "Well, we were both drunk" in a testimony should just automatically be ruled a mistrial.
(Edit: well, depending on if your state has these laws, and blah, etc.)
Again, it would probably depend on the prosecutor. It takes little more than the insinuation to cause serious damage to someone's life. Simply being charged with a crime can be detrimental.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-11 16:18:37
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 16:24:35
I think even with all male sexual abuse cases being reported that assaults are largely perpetrated by men in our society. The way things are set up, men are encouraged to be forceful towards women in relationships from an early age whereas sexuality on the female side is stymied, unless it serves male interests of course.
Some men tend to mellow out over the years as they settle down and see the female point of view but young hotshots are still out there playing their slimest cards and looking like creeps for a reason.
Cue the catcalling. #cringe
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Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-08-11 16:25:31
Here's where the MRAs come out and try to tell me men get catcalled all the time.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-08-11 16:45:25
This law is good for nothing. How hard is it to say "no"? It's clearly easier to say "no" than "yes"! Kinda hard to say no if you are too drunk to even say "pizza."
Kinda hard to say no if you are blitzed out on rolfies.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-08-11 16:45:42
I would theorize that it's the less attractive women who complain to the more attractive men that gives them the notion of needing to be more forceful with women. I would also therorize that it is the more attractive females that complain to the less attractive males about being hit on all the time and get the idea that men should be the ones demonized.
Of course someone would need to prove this with statistics and of course attractiveness is relative to the current society so it would be hard to prove.
Quote: SAN DIEGO (AP) — College students have heard a similar refrain for years in campaigns to stop sexual assault: No means no.
Now, as universities around the country that are facing pressure over the handling of rape allegations adopt policies to define consensual sex, California is poised to take it a step further. Lawmakers are considering what would be the first-in-the-nation measure requiring all colleges that receive public funds to set a standard for when "yes means yes."
Defining consensual sex is a growing trend by universities in an effort to do more to protect victims. From the University of California system to Yale, schools have been adopting standards to distinguish when consent was given for a sexual activity and when it was not.
Legislation passed by California's state Senate in May and coming before the Assembly this month would require all schools that receive public funds for student financial assistance to set a so-called "affirmative consent standard" that could be used in investigating and adjudicating sexual assault allegations. That would be defined as "an affirmative, unambiguous and conscious decision" by each party to engage in sexual activity.
Silence or lack of resistance does not constitute consent. The legislation says it's also not consent if the person is drunk, drugged, unconscious or asleep.
Lawmakers say consent can be nonverbal, and universities with similar policies have outlined examples as maybe a nod of the head or moving in closer to the person.
Several state legislatures, including Maryland, Texas and Connecticut, introduced bills in the past year to push colleges to do more after a White House task force reported that 1 in 5 female college students is a victim of sexual assault. The U.S. Education Department also took the unprecedented step of releasing the names of schools facing federal investigation for the way they handle sexual abuse allegations.
But no state legislation has gone as far as California's bill in requiring a consent standard.
Critics say the state is overstepping its bounds. The Los Angeles Times in an editorial after the bill passed the state Senate 27-4 wrote that it raises questions as to whether it is "reasonable" or "enforceable." The legislation is based on the White House task force's recommendations.
"It seems extremely difficult and extraordinarily intrusive to micromanage sex so closely as to tell young people what steps they must take in the privacy of their own dorm rooms," the newspaper said.
Some fear navigating the murky waters of consent spells trouble for universities.
"Frequently these cases involve two individuals, both of whom maybe were under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and it can be very tricky to ascertain whether consent was obtained," said Ada Meloy, general counsel of the American Council on Education, which represents college presidents.
She said schools need to guarantee a safe environment for students, while law enforcement is best suited for handling more serious sexual assault cases.
John F. Banzhaf III, a George Washington University's Law School professor, believes having university disciplinary panels interpret vague cues and body language will open the door for more lawsuits.
The legal definition of rape in most states means the perpetrator used force or the threat of force against the victim, but the California legislation could set the stage in which both parties could accuse each other of sexual assault, he said.
"This bill would very, very radically change the definition of rape," he said.
University of California at Berkeley student Meghan Warner, 20, said that's a good thing. She said she was sexually assaulted during her freshman year by two men at a fraternity but didn't report it because she believed "that unless it was a stranger at night with a weapon who attacked you when you were walking home, that it wasn't rape. It's just a crappy thing that happened." She now runs campus workshops to teach students what constitutes consent.
"Most students don't know what consent is," she said. "I've asked at the workshops how many people think if a girl is blacked out drunk that it's OK to have sex with her. The amount of people who raised their hands was just startling."
Defining consent may be easy to do on paper, said Laura Nguyen, a 21-year-old San Diego State University senior, but "we're talking about college students out at night and the reality is there's not just 'yes' or 'no.' There is a lot of in between. I really think it depends on the situation."
The legislation initially stated that "if there is confusion as to whether a person has consented or continues to consent to sexual activity, it is essential that the participants stop the activity until the confusion can be clearly resolved."
After some interpreted that as asking people to stop after each kiss to get a verbal agreement before going to the next level, the bill was amended to say consent must be "ongoing" and "can be revoked at any time."
"California needs to provide our students with education, resources, consistent policies and justice so that the system is not stacked against survivors," state Sen. Kevin de Leon, a Los Angeles Democrat, said in promoting the bill.
Supporters say investigators would have to determine whether consent had been given by both parties instead of focusing on whether the complainant resisted or said no.
Denice Labertew of the California Coalition Against Sexual Assault said the bill fosters a cultural change: "There's a lot of criticism around affirmative consent because it requires us to change the way we normally think about this."
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