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Random Politics & Religion #00
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-05 14:36:19
I went to county jail for the weekend for just reasons about 10 years ago, & all I could think about was getting those poor *** some decent food when I was let loose on the world once again, but then I got out, & you know, you get busy & such.
the food is terrible in there. I was listening to a debate on NPR this weekend, for and against the death penalty in America, and one of the guys that supports the death penalty claimed that the food is too good. He suggested some kind of nutriloaf? or something like that. Basically a tasteless food that's sole purpose is just to give you what you need to survive.
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-05-05 14:42:32
False convictions occur on a much larger scale than .2%.
The government does not keep track of those who are pardoned.
There was a topic a few years ago that discussed this.
Some information p.6Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: » Do you think only guilty people are convicted?
99.999% of the time yeah. >_>
Since I have more numbers now from The National Registry of Exonerations, we can look at rough (seriously rough) statistics.
According to the US Department of Justice there were Quote: There were 6.98 million offenders under the supervision of the adult correctional systems at yearend 2011 This includes people who are on probation, in jail, parole, or in prison. In both state and federal custody.
In order for your statistic to be accurate for all crimes here (not just felonies) only 69.8 (70) people should be innocent, or at least exonerated.
The US (as a government entity) does not keep track of exonerations via a database, so the numbers from The National Registry of Exonerations (a joint project by two law schools) are those they have found and verified, which is 1133 at this moment from 1989. This does not include Quote: at least 1,100 convicted defendants who were cleared since 1995 in 12 “group exonerations,” that occurred after it was discovered that police officers had deliberately framed dozens or hundreds of innocent defendants, mostly for drug and gun crimes.
This does not go into the fact that most exonerations are not known or widely publicized, so there is no way to know how many occur each year. p.96
Quote: If so, why are these exonerations unknown? The fundamental reason is that there is no official method for recording exonerations. James Ochoa, for example, had his conviction vacated on motion of the Orange County, California District Attorney, and then charges were dismissed. If you examined the court records, that’s probably all you’d see. There might be no way whatever to know that it was an exoneration. Convictions are vacated for a host of more common reasons; modification of the sentence, for example. As a result, a record search would be extremely difficult even if the records were kept in one place. In fact, it’s impossible. Court records in America are scattered across 94 federal districts and several thousand county courthouses, and police records are even harder to locate.
....
Several attorneys who have obtained exonerations at this early stage have told us that it can be comparatively easy to persuade the prosecutor and the judge who tried a case to reopen it and to reverse the conviction when the trial is still fresh in their minds and before the case is taken over by other prosecutors and other judges on appeal – assuming, of course, that there is persuasive new evidence that the defendant is innocent. The hearing may be seen as a low-key process of correcting an error before it’s passed on. By the same token, they say, everybody understands that this sort of in-house error correction is supposed to remain in house. Rayshard Futrell’s appellate lawyer has told us that it would probably have been considerably more difficult to reach an agreement to release him if his case had attracted attention from the media.
So, no I think based on these numbers/facts that the 99.999% of people in jail are guilty is wrong. If you (or anyone) has time to read the document it is incredibly interesting (and has sources!). I'm really concerned about the "family search" part. That seems entirely too invasive of a process seeing how police officers are extremely prejudiced when it comes to investigating a crime (confirmation bias). How hard would it be for someone to murder someone else, then drop some of their DNA in the area. Would only take a few weeks of facebook trolling to gather all the requires information then just wait for an opportune moment when that person would have no credible alibi.
People really should watch that video I posted earlier, I guarantee it will change your life.
Police are not the only ones guilty of confirmation bias/or feel the noble need to help put bad guys away, but also the lab techs who are running the tests. I did not realize how many instances of faulty forensic analysis (on all forensics not just DNA) have occurred (that have been found). Below are just a few of the examples from http://www.nacdl.org/NewsReleases.aspx?id=26459
Quote: Massachusetts 2013:
State chemist Sonja Farak has been accused of tampering with drug evidence, potentially affecting 60,000 samples in 34,000 cases.
2012 – Chemist Annie Dookhan has been accused of falsifying drug sample test results, forging paperwork and mixing up samples. Since then, over 200 defendants have been released and their cases have been put on hold while their lawyers challenge their convictions. Dookhan is believed to have been doing this for years.
Illinois 2011 – A former Detroit crime lab was abandoned with evidence left in the abandoned building for anyone to have access to. The lab, which closed in 2008, was investigated and it was discovered that the lab workers had been habitually sloppy and had high error rates.
New York 5/2010 – A NYPD criminalist was found to have taken shortcuts in testing drugs leading to unreliable results. The criminalist under question tested a substance for cocaine, determined it was negative and instead of retesting the sample, she marked the substance as positive for cocaine, leading all of the samples she had tested to be questioned.
Or just plain bad science on the part of the lab techs, that for some reason no one disputed.
Quote: In 1987, Roadcap explained to the jury at the rape/murder trial of Barry Laughman, that the killer's blood type "morphed" from B to A-to match Laughman's blood type-due to antibiotics the victim was taking at the time of her death. Her fantasy science stood for 16 years, until Laughman was cleared by DNA.
The National Academy of Sciences issued a report in 2009, Strengthing Forensic Science in the United States: A Path Forward, found that most of the science used in crime labs lacks any form of peer review or validation. Jay A. Siegel, NAS member, said "In a nutshell, these people aren't scientists. They don't know what validation is. They don't know what it means to validate a test".
As to familial DNA matching, I don't know how anyone can agree with this. This goes beyond someone who has been arrested on probable cause and into the realm of making everyone who is related to a criminal assumed to be a criminal, as the default assumption.
I'm still more concerned more about stupidity (see above :)) than malicious intent, but of course this can happen. Especially if it is crime scene tech who has the malicious intent.
Quote: In a bench trial, Nebraska Judge Randall Rehmeier found that prosecutors had proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Kofoed had planted blood from the murder victim in a car in an attempt to tie two innocent men to the crime. The men were eventually cleared and two Wisconsin residents were convicted of the murder. So, your reasoning is that a few thousands of people in a population of over 8 million prisoners (your source even showed that) were arrested based on illegal means or other mistakes. At most, 3,000. You know what 3000/8000000 equals? .000375 (or .0375%). So, still well below the extremes on a standard deviation bellchart.
No, my point is that we don't know the precise figures because no one has been keeping track of those who are exonerated
Those are the exonerated cases that were found as of 2012, the year the database started. More have been found since and it's likely more will still be found.
And those are the people who were exonerated. Not everyone who is/was innocent will be exonerated
Did you see the 34,000 cases that have to be re-evaluated? The 200 cases that were put on hold?, etc. Because of mistakes or malicious intent by technicians. The court cases that were convicted because of faulty science (like the FBI admitting in April 2015 that the use of hair analysis has been flawed for decades) are not being re-tried. The NAS has stated that many "forenisic methods" being used as evidence are flawed or outright lies. Do you remember the case about faulty fingerprint analysis? The states that don't allow appeals for convicts who pleaded guilty or plea bargained to a crime to have DNA compared.
There are issues with the current justice system and not keeping track of our misktakes doesn't let us try to fix them.
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Bahamut.Omael
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-05-05 14:42:58
I was listening to a debate on NPR this weekend, for and against the death penalty in America, and one of the guys that supports the death penalty claimed that the food is too good. He suggested some kind of nutriloaf? or something like that. Basically a tasteless food that's sole purpose is just to give you what you need to survive.
Nutriloaf's tasteless on purpose. If you're in prison, you've lost your right to flavor.
 Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2015-05-05 14:44:38
I was listening to a debate on NPR this weekend, for and against the death penalty in America, and one of the guys that supports the death penalty claimed that the food is too good.
I've never been to state or federal prison, but I can't imagine the food is better than a county jail. I know a guy I can ask, I'll do some research later this week.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-05 14:48:16
I was listening to a debate on NPR this weekend, for and against the death penalty in America, and one of the guys that supports the death penalty claimed that the food is too good. He suggested some kind of nutriloaf? or something like that. Basically a tasteless food that's sole purpose is just to give you what you need to survive.
Nutriloaf's tasteless on purpose. If you're in prison, you've lost your right to flavor.
And we wonder why prisoners go insane in prison and can never be rehabilitated.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2015-05-05 14:48:21
I think he was going more for a "past performance is no guarantee of future outcome" type deal. I know that's what he's saying. But we're discussing social science, not chemistry. It's literally impossible to control for all variables in social science. It's hard enough trying to control for variables in more traditional sciences like chemistry.
If someone came up to me, tabula rasa, and said, "We should decriminalize drugs," I'd think the idea had very little merit. It sounds slightly crazy to me. Then again, I was born when Nancy Reagan was spouting her ridiculous "Just Say No" slogan, so I'm not strictly tabula rasa, anyways.
But then we look at the decriminalization and even legalization efforts made involving psychoactive substances and similarly proscribed dopamine-releasing activities (incidentally, every time I refer to Amsterdam, I'm thinking of its brothels, not its marijuana) and the knee-jerk reaction just doesn't work.
Yes, it's scary to be standing on the precipice and debating whether it's a good idea to jump into the water below. It's ridiculous to watch several dozen people do the same and then sit hemming and hawing about whether or not they died when one can clearly see they're alive and splashing.
Thing is, if nothing else, does criminalization ever deter criminal activity? I'm reminded very much of gun nuts rights advocates and their comment, "Outlaw all the guns and only outlaws will have guns."
Are there potential issues involved in legalizing substances? Absolutely. Portugal didn't actually legalize, anyhow, they just changed it from a criminal/imprisonment matter. Alcohol is still semi-criminalized here in the United States. Ohio only JUST killed its "No liquor sales on Sunday" a couple years back and I can still be arrested for leaving a licensed premises while inebriated, for all the sense that makes. CO's laws regarding marijuana are largely similar to those regarding alcohol, from what I know. It's not carte blanche to be wasted 24/7.
Nor would most people want to be. Google the "Rat Park experiments" to see why the popular model of drugs and addiction as portrayed to the public at large is very flawed. I can link it in comic form if people prefer. Or just think about it logically: alcohol is mostly legal and relatively easy to access, but most people aren't alcoholics, even though many do drink with some frequency.
I hate to be conspiracy theorist, but I really have to wonder if there isn't some ulterior motive behind 40+ years of a failed repeat of Prohibition. It's made insane amounts of money for drug producers in poor parts of the world (though they're also a perfect example of why trickle down economics is a load of manure), it's permitted the further rise of an already-bloated military-industrial complex, it's been a major factor in something like 1 in 6 Americans having a criminal record... it can't all just be Puritanical hysteria, not over the course of fully two generations.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-05 14:52:38
No, my point is that we don't know the precise figures because no one has been keeping track of those who are exonerated You can't say that we don't know the figures and also say
False convictions occur on a much larger scale than .2%.
Those arguments are counter to each other, even since your very sources you used to prove your reasoning showed a .0375% exoneration rate.
Yes, we don't know exacts. But what we do know is that the number is smaller than you think, and more in line with standard deviation. Which is something we can live with, because (although Mil will probably say otherwise) we don't live in a world where cops pick people up off the street and arrest them just for fun.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-05 14:53:39
I thought true freedom was the ability to do whatever illicit drugs you wanted and to own the consequences therein? Seems both sides of the political shitshow want to moralize before having cocktail parties where everyone engages in drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes.
If you want to do hard drugs, go for it. You'll be a great warning label for future people who need warding off abuse. You'll probably also help employ someone in a rehab clinic near you. Or occupy a jail. Or be a riveting story that sells millions of book copies.
Either way, someones getting paid.
And on the other side? Perhaps some producers will become millionaires and innovators currently unable to cultivate *insert drug here* will be able to boost profits. Means more $$$$$ tax revenue... at least until we ship it all overseas to Thailand. And who doesn't like seeing quarterly profits? Even the moralizers will have no choice but to stroke themselves off at all the money they'll be making.
Just like we do right now.
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Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-05 14:55:51
Maybe we should all create a society and culture where it is not acceptable to commit a crime in the first place, instead of glorifying it (Hollywood) and pitying it (liberal mantra).
You know, make it harsher for people so they can think twice (or in some cases, three or more times) before committing a crime knowingly.
It's pretty well proven at this point that severity of punishment is not deterring crime. I thought like you when I was 15 and had hard opinions on things that were based on ideology and not reality.
Bahamut.Omael
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-05-05 14:56:57
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I was listening to a debate on NPR this weekend, for and against the death penalty in America, and one of the guys that supports the death penalty claimed that the food is too good. He suggested some kind of nutriloaf? or something like that. Basically a tasteless food that's sole purpose is just to give you what you need to survive.
Nutriloaf's tasteless on purpose. If you're in prison, you've lost your right to flavor.
And we wonder why prisoners go insane in prison and can never be rehabilitated.
I never wonder that. I worked at Huntsville for most of the 90's. There will always be criminals that aren't interested in getting any kind of help with their problems, but the ones that do want the help too often don't get it because they're "just not worth it". According to my boss at the time, anyway.
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Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-05 15:00:07
but the ones that do want the help too often don't get it because they're "just not worth it".
Hell, you look at private prisons in the U.S. and even the guards aren't worth it to the owners. Understaffed, undertrained, undergeared.
It's all they can do to get through their shifts safely, let alone keep prisoners safe and properly in line.
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Bahamut.Omael
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-05-05 15:02:25
but the ones that do want the help too often don't get it because they're "just not worth it".
Hell, you look at private prisons in the U.S. and even the guards aren't worth it to the owners. Understaffed, undertrained, undergeared.
It's all they can do to get through their shifts safely, let alone keep prisoners safe and properly in line.
I got to use a nice chunk of my first few paychecks on gear.
Seraph.Ramyrez
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By Seraph.Ramyrez 2015-05-05 15:07:41
Hell even at state prisons.
I've a friend who was on-duty there at the time, luckily she wasn't involved in the incident directly.
Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 15:09:49
Also, alcohol isn't the same as hard drugs. How so? Take a case of booze to a drug dealer who paid for cocaine and find out. I'm done with you guys for now. If you can't even grasp the simple concept of a control group, there is no hope from here. I'd probably start by not running my experiment on my control group, but that's just me.
BINGO. Milamber wins. Hope is restored.
By fonewear 2015-05-05 15:16:31
I predict our new Duff Zero will sell better than our previous brand...
Out of business sign:
30 seconds later: Well that's the end of me !
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-05 15:23:19
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-05-05 15:23:50
No, my point is that we don't know the precise figures because no one has been keeping track of those who are exonerated You can't say that we don't know the figures and also say
False convictions occur on a much larger scale than .2%.
Those arguments are counter to each other, even since your very sources you used to prove your reasoning showed a .0375% exoneration rate.
Yes, we don't know exacts. But what we do know is that the number is smaller than you think, and more in line with standard deviation. Which is something we can live with, because (although Mil will probably say otherwise) we don't live in a world where cops pick people up off the street and arrest them just for fun.
We do not know this. We do not know this because we do not have the data.
I stated that those were the cases we know about. I also listed incidents where tens of thousands of cases are being re-evaluated. Cases which will also never be re-evaluated.
I could have worded my statement better by saying it definitely looks like false convictions occur at a higher rate than .2% because of [research posted below and in the that thread I listed]
Baltimore drug free zones where people were arested for standing around. recent interview on Baltimore
old news stories from the 1990's forward on the drug free zones
Edit:
cop in the hood
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 15:25:54
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free.
Uh, police don't convict people.
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By fonewear 2015-05-05 15:26:30
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free.
Uh, police don't convict people.
Sure they do it's called pepper spray !
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Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Kara 2015-05-05 15:27:48
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free.
Uh, police don't convict people. Did the police:
Plant evidence?
Lie?
Not turn over all evidence to DA?
Etc
Bahamut.Ravael
Server: Bahamut
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-05 15:29:31
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free. Uh, police don't convict people. Did the police:
Plant evidence?
Lie?
Not turn over all evidence to DA?
Etc
Flavin made the claim and didn't provide a source, so the ball's in his court.
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Bahamut.Omael
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 400
By Bahamut.Omael 2015-05-05 15:29:55
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free.
You don't like it? Call the cops.
By fonewear 2015-05-05 15:30:25
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free.
You don't like it? Call the cops. YouTube Video Placeholder
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-05 15:34:51
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I was listening to a debate on NPR this weekend, for and against the death penalty in America, and one of the guys that supports the death penalty claimed that the food is too good. He suggested some kind of nutriloaf? or something like that. Basically a tasteless food that's sole purpose is just to give you what you need to survive.
Nutriloaf's tasteless on purpose. If you're in prison, you've lost your right to flavor.
And we wonder why prisoners go insane in prison and can never be rehabilitated.
I never wonder that. I worked at Huntsville for most of the 90's. There will always be criminals that aren't interested in getting any kind of help with their problems, but the ones that do want the help too often don't get it because they're "just not worth it". According to my boss at the time, anyway.
We're not talking about the criminals who don't give a ***. We're talking about the ones that want/can be rehabbed. The ones who'll be flushed down the tubes because "they're not worth it."
By fonewear 2015-05-05 15:36:51
Since when do people care about criminals ?
By fonewear 2015-05-05 15:38:22
It's not my fault damn it I'm the product of a bad environment. I'm not responsible I tells ya !
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2015-05-05 15:40:21
Christian America: Where I keep hearing about this Jesus guy forgives but *** if we don't love the death penalty and skullfucking prisoners in subhuman conditions.
Practice what you preach? Naw. *fires a rifle off in the air*
Bahamut.Kara
Server: Bahamut
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Posts: 3544
By Bahamut.Kara 2015-05-05 15:42:16
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free. Uh, police don't convict people. Did the police:
Plant evidence?
Lie?
Not turn over all evidence to DA?
Etc
Flavin made the claim and didn't provide a source, so the ball's in his court.
Man freed after 20 years in prison for Waukegan murder gets $20 million
Quote: Last year, the Tribune revealed that in 1994, police obtained a knife found steps from the crime scene. Rivera's trial attorneys said they were never told about the knife, and there is no indication authorities ordered forensic tests before the knife was destroyed, according to court records and interviews. More recently, the Tribune reported that a federal judge had ordered testing on a gym shoe to try to determine if authorities had attempted to manufacture bogus evidence against Rivera.
By fonewear 2015-05-05 15:42:41
I don't recall preaching forgiveness...for criminals...
If you wanna feel sorry for Johnny stabs a lot you are free to do so. I will not !
Lakshmi.Flavin
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2015-05-05 15:43:24
I gotta say... I'm getting real tired of having a large chunk of tax money get paid out to people all the time for police *** ups and then watch as no one actually gets held accountable and they just go back to their jobs. Another $20 million paid out to a guy exonerated of his alleged crimes. Not to mention all the money spent on court costs and prison costs and the fact that the real criminal was allowed to go free.
Uh, police don't convict people. God... you just look for reasons to disagree with me don't you?
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