Pretty much what Liela said. Tipping used to be an out-of-the-ordinary thank you for exceptional service that corporations have turned into subsidization for their employees' salaries. In theory, it works if everyone plays by the same rules, but there will always be someone who feels tipping is optional, cheats the system, and everyone suffers as a result (pretty much like when health insurance was optional).
Ultimately I blame the companies who try to keep their prices lower than they really should be, and this Noodles CEO guy really has the right idea in ending an archaic and broken system
Skip The Tip, Restaurant CEO Says
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Skip the tip, restaurant CEO says
fonewear said: » Again no one is saying you have to work at a job that gets tips. If you don't like it work somewhere else. But don't take away the opportunity of others that can make more on tips. Jobs that rely on tips are often the norm when you're talking about low skill or part-time work. Those are often the only jobs actually available to, say, a working full-time student. Granted, nobody should be expecting to make a living at a part-time low-skill job like that, but it's not as if those people have many other avenues of employment. Odin.Jassik said: » fonewear said: » Again no one is saying you have to work at a job that gets tips. If you don't like it work somewhere else. But don't take away the opportunity of others that can make more on tips. Jobs that rely on tips are often the norm when you're talking about low skill or part-time work. Those are often the only jobs actually available to, say, a working full-time student. Granted, nobody should be expecting to make a living at a part-time low-skill job like that, but it's not as if those people have many other avenues of employment. Why? To who's standard? Why should people be working for a living at all? Just because in the past they've had to? Jetackuu said: » Odin.Jassik said: » fonewear said: » Again no one is saying you have to work at a job that gets tips. If you don't like it work somewhere else. But don't take away the opportunity of others that can make more on tips. Jobs that rely on tips are often the norm when you're talking about low skill or part-time work. Those are often the only jobs actually available to, say, a working full-time student. Granted, nobody should be expecting to make a living at a part-time low-skill job like that, but it's not as if those people have many other avenues of employment. Why? To who's standard? Why should people be working for a living at all? Just because in the past they've had to? Part-time being the operative words. I'm not talking about someone working a full-time job without benefits and below minimum wage, but a college student working 15-25 hours a week as a waiter shouldn't expect to make enough to pay all the bills. I get the impression you guys have not worked in a restaurant... ever.
Largely owing to the cultural obligation to tip, a good server makes quite a lot of money. A friend of mine has a nice, respectable college degree and has been looking for work in her field, but she waits tables in the meantime. She does this because she pulls down over $20/hour! Not every server does that well, but rest assured that in a sit-down restaurant (Noodles & Co., at least the ones near me, are identical to McDonald's in style, by the way) that does any kind of reasonable business, a competent server is probably doing quite well. It's why people fight for those jobs. The below-minimum hourly rate hardly matters. It's no secret why many waitresses do the same job for decades. That's also why people fight against removing tips. A restaurant like Denny's or Bob Evans or Olive Garden does not want to have to pay $15-$20/hour to their waitstaff (to say nothing of the other drones -- the hostess, dishwashers, and bussers are usually unaware of how screwed they are), not least because you can be certain the IRS hasn't been getting their full due on those tips. Seriously, if you want to talk about minimum wage, do not talk about servers. But, as I mentioned, Noodles & Company is a slightly classier McDonald's, not a restaurant with servers. I have never tipped there and never felt the need to tip while there for that reason.
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Odin.Jassik said: » Part-time being the operative words. I'm not talking about someone working a full-time job without benefits and below minimum wage, but a college student working 15-25 hours a week as a waiter shouldn't expect to make enough to pay all the bills. A long time ago I used to work at a place that shared tips. Needless to say I didn't stay there long.
I know for a fact that my favorite local bartender makes a killing. She probably makes more money than you would think. She deserves it too. I've watched her bust her butt working hard for those tips. Shiva.Onorgul said: » That's also why people fight against removing tips. A restaurant like Denny's or Bob Evans or Olive Garden does not want to have to pay $15-$20/hour to their waitstaff (to say nothing of the other drones -- the hostess, dishwashers, and bussers are usually unaware of how screwed they are), not least because you can be certain the IRS hasn't been getting their full due on those tips. You just stated some good reasons that tips should be removed and that they make at least actual minimum wage, and it needs to go up. I'm fully aware how they operate, and while I've never been in a place like the OP said, it sounds like fast food, and I don't know of anyone who tips for fast food.
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You guys forgot about Mr. Pink ? They work hard at McDonald's and no one tips them. So feel lucky you work at a job that gets tips.
fonewear said: » A long time ago I used to work at a place that shared tips. Needless to say I didn't stay there long. I know for a fact that my favorite local bartender makes a killing. She probably makes more money than you would think. She deserves it too. I've watched her bust her butt working hard for those tips. Jetackuu said: » Odin.Jassik said: » Part-time being the operative words. I'm not talking about someone working a full-time job without benefits and below minimum wage, but a college student working 15-25 hours a week as a waiter shouldn't expect to make enough to pay all the bills. Possibly, but we appear to be talking about different things. prolly
You confuse sales with profit, the two aren't the same thing.
If a company can't properly pay it's employees, then it doesn't need to exist.
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Jetackuu said: » If a company can't properly pay it's employees, then it doesn't need to exist. capitalism died when we stopped the slave trade
Tipping conversation goes on a tangent to Slavery.
Here we go again! Deja Vu y'all.
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Lakshmi.Zerowone said: » Tipping conversation goes on a tangent to Slavery. Here we go again! Deja Vu y'all. Slavery ended when they all just ran away, anyway.
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Shiva.Onorgul said: » I get the impression you guys have not worked in a restaurant... ever. Largely owing to the cultural obligation to tip, a good server makes quite a lot of money. A friend of mine has a nice, respectable college degree and has been looking for work in her field, but she waits tables in the meantime. She does this because she pulls down over $20/hour! I know good bartenders at places that have good business can do 40-60k a year, except the ones in Vegas they pull a bit more.
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Is this some HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE new variant on Godwin now? Godwin doesn't even tend to kill a discussion anymore, so I guess it had to evolve eventually.
sure
I guess I lied a little bit in my first post. I am not against all tipping, I'm just against how tipping is done at the moment.
What I think the system should be is this. I think that restaurants should pay their employees minimum wage. (I am NOT debating here that the minimum wage should or should not be raised. That debate is already going in a different thread. ALL I am saying in this one is that whatever the minimum wage is, employers should be paying at least that. It's called "minimum" for a reason, yo!) And then, if the servers are giving exceptional service, the patrons can tip at their own discretion (as opposed to being expected or obligated to tip regardless of quality of service.) This makes it so customers can still give tips if they think the server deserves it, and the server can still earn it, but the customer is NOT actually paying the server's wage and the tip is NOT required for the server to be able to make a living. It would put the gratitude back in gratuity while simultaneously giving the safety net back to the servers. I would be fine as frog's hair with that tipping system.
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I don't see the momentum of culture and tradition being slowed down by demanding that servers and hairdressers and other professions that "rely" on tips be less legally tied to them. The cheapskates are already stiffing people on tips while most others tend to tip as well as they can. That is unlikely to change.
I'm apparently more aware of how much servers make doing their job and I still tip like a drunken sailor at a titty bar. I'm one of the least demanding customers one can get, too, with my sole fault being that I tend to linger and have been known to bring a book with me when eating alone (meaning my glass will need to be refilled an extra time or two). Although I'm only indicative of myself, I doubt people who are leaving tips, whether generous or not, are thinking, "Well, this is the only way the waiter is getting paid," so changing their base wage would probably have a neutral or positive effect (as in, no change or they get paid even more), with the latter potentially leading to marginal increases in price and blah-blah-blah-economic-hypothesis. As someone who worked a few years in a restaurant doing everything but waiting tables (it's no secret that I lack the necessary skill -- anyone who calls waiting tables a no-skill job has never done it), I have a deep-seated hatred of them. I was scraping for barely $6/hour while they walked out with $20 or more. And, since I was the host and therefore the one who handled customers at check-in and check-out, I was the one who got ***from the drunks when we were full-up and likely to remain so 'til 5 AM. But, in spite of my well-justified loathing, I still don't see a reason to change their wages. Fixing the disparity between the sycophants waiting tables and everyone else who keep the rest of the place running would be nice, though. Still not entirely sure why the CEO of a fast food restaurant is commenting on tips, though. When I worked in a grocery store bagging groceries, I was asked about once a month to help someone load their car and the management made a big deal about not accepting tips. In six months, I was tipped a total of maybe $5 by little old ladies. Is that really the sort of thing to worry about?
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Im surprised that no one has mentioned the following facts:
1) You order your meal at a counter at Noodles and Co. 2). They hand you a plastic card with a number you're supposed to display on your table in order to have your food delivered. 3). If it's particularly slow, someone might come around and ask you if you'd like a drink refill. At what step in this process were you supposed to tip? You pay before you get your food so how would you have any ability to judge the "service" you will be recieving in the near future? Does this really qualify as a "sit-down" resturant? Are there even "servers?"
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Lye said: » Im surprised that no one has mentioned the following facts: 1) You order your meal at a counter at Noodles and Co. 2). They hand you a plastic card with a number you're supposed to display on your table in order to have your food delivered. 3). If it's particularly slow, someone might come around and ask you if you'd like a drink refill. At what step in this process were you supposed to tip? You pay before you get your food so how would you have any ability to judge the "service" you will be recieving in the near future? Does this really qualify as a "sit-down" resturant? Are there even "servers?" I wouldn't call it a "sit-down" sort of place, but someone brings the food to you, someone may check on you (not consistently,) and someone will clean your table after you have left because there aren't bins in the dining room for customers to do that themselves. It's probably not likely, but I could see someone leaving a couple bucks cash with the used dishes. /shrug
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Lots of fast food places will bring your order to your table and especially if the order is going to take a while. I only tip waiters/cooks and that is only when their service is exceptional.
Bismarck.Davorin said: » Lye said: » Im surprised that no one has mentioned the following facts: 1) You order your meal at a counter at Noodles and Co. 2). They hand you a plastic card with a number you're supposed to display on your table in order to have your food delivered. 3). If it's particularly slow, someone might come around and ask you if you'd like a drink refill. At what step in this process were you supposed to tip? You pay before you get your food so how would you have any ability to judge the "service" you will be recieving in the near future? Does this really qualify as a "sit-down" resturant? Are there even "servers?" I wouldn't call it a "sit-down" sort of place, but someone brings the food to you, someone may check on you (not consistently,) and someone will clean your table after you have left because there aren't bins in the dining room for customers to do that themselves. It's probably not likely, but I could see someone leaving a couple bucks cash with the used dishes. /shrug Dav! Wanna go to noodles next Sunday? We don't have to tip^^
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fonewear said: » Here's a "tip" get a different job. We discussed tipping at length not too long ago if I remember correctly. Someone has to work those jobs, until robots come a long and do the job better... They can't all be filled by 15-18 year olds who still live at home. As they stand now those jobs are an integral part of our society, not saying we can't live without them, but the convenience is pretty ingrained in us right now. One could argue we could change this, but I'd argue they're delusional if they think we'd be able to accomplish that in any realm of even our granchildrens lifetime. In New Zealand, we don't tip. It's an American thing. But go to just about any restaurant in NZ, and the service is minimal. It varies by establishment of course, but most places you go, you don't get free drink refills, you don't get a waitress asking you every five minutes if your food is ok, in fact, the only time you'll actually see a waitress is when they're serving food or taking an order. And even then, you can tell that they're in absolutely no hurry to do their job.
I've been living in USA for a while now, and I can't say that I remember my first experience dining here - but I do remember when my brother visited a few years ago. He'd been to the States at least once when he was in the NZ Navy many years ago, but this was his first real experience being here. My wife and I thought we'd take him to Red Lobster - he was completely blown away by the attention we were getting from the waitress. At first he was convinced she was flirting with him, and my wife and I had to explain that she was just earning her tip, lol. Anyway, it's clear to me that the tipping system has merit; it gives incentive to provide better-than-average service. It doesn't always work of course, there'll always be that one waiter/waitress that hates their job and is eager to show it. But in those cases, the solution is simple - we just tip less. |
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