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Wages in the US
By volkom 2014-02-16 12:54:12
wouldn't companies like mc.donalds would just raise prices of food then to compensate for increase in wages thus kinda degrading the value of the dollar? if the people that ate their often were forced not to, is that really a bad thing? that depends on the consequences
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-02-16 12:56:39
Not likely since the cost of their food is not determined by labor costs but rather by their competition and what their customers are willing to pay. Any increased production costs, if substantial enough, would probably be offset by changes in labor. While true, increasing minimum wage effects all employers, not just your competition.
Since everyone's costs are going to go up, everyone's prices are going to go up, all at the same time. The amount that will go up will vary, and then cap at a specific amount due to, as you said, competition and consumer.
But since everyone's costs are going to go up (not just fast food, but everyone), and everyone's prices are going to go up, that is called (gasp!) artificial inflation!
Labor changes will also occur, but it will still be minor compared to the artificial inflation that arises. Good job summarizing things that have already been said while trying to pretend you're being original. Continue piggybacking off everyone else's comments and someone might confuse you for a person that can actually contribute.
Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-02-16 13:35:00
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »No one said they are worthless. That is straw man, brah.
That actually isn't the purpose of a business. The purpose of a business is to provide a service or product.
Ideally, the business will want to maximize its profits for a given set of variables; but that isn't the point of the business.
This seems to be something which is forgotten or misunderstood.
Asinine. The service or product is the means to make profit, which is the goal of business. Don't forget, profits are evil and we should arrest anyone who is trying to make money, for they are evil and should be punished/killed.
Edit: Sarcasm is hard.
Exactly who is saying profits are evil? For a business to thrive, it needs to make a profit.
Most mission statements (where you try to define the goal of your business) read somewhat differently than the following:
- Make money.
- Make more money.
- Make all the money we can possibly make.
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Quetzalcoatl.Taberifx
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By Quetzalcoatl.Taberifx 2014-02-16 14:11:22
brb while i play the minimum wage card to inflate 'income' and increase tax 'revenue'.
Shiva.Gib
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By Shiva.Gib 2014-02-16 14:56:35
everyone should make 1,000 dollars an hour then everyone in the USA will be rich!
that's how economies work, right?
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By Jetackuu 2014-02-16 15:17:53
Sylph.Systematicchaos said: »Minimum talent nets you minimum wages.
I’ve seen several mentions of the fast food industry in this thread, and if McDonald’s has come to be considered as a “career option” in this country, then we, my friends, have far bigger problems at hand.
Such as looking down on people for the jobs that they perform?
Is there something particularly wrong with being a farm hand? A shoe salesman? A plumber/electrician/carpenter/general contractor? A welder? A rancher? An electronic component assembler? A seamstress/tailor? A photographer? A fast-food worker? A doctor? A lawyer (all jokes aside)? A janitor?
I'm in no way saying that you have to pay all of the above equally.
But you shouldn't be essentially stating that these people are worthless, or bring little to no value to the table.
Some of those are worthy career options, but some jobs are not careers. They are jobs better suited to high-school age workers, or older people simply working for health insurance or to supplement what they already have. Working for McDonalds should in no way, shape, or form, be able to feed a family of 4, or 2 for that matter, unless they are ordering from you.
Why shouldn't it?
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Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-02-16 15:21:13
Real minimum wage: To equal the purchasing power of the minimum wage in 1968 ($10.69), the current minimum wage’s real value ($7.25) would have to increase by $3.44 (or 47%).
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42973.pdf
Moving away from only minimum wage workers:
The majority of the workforce in the US is paid on an hourly basis, 59% in 2012. This has varied +/- 2% since 1979.
Table 10: http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.pdf
Median income of wage earners in 2012 was $27,519.10.
http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2012
Median household income 2012 was $51,017.00
Figure 1: Real median household income 1967-2012 (highest peak was in 1999)
https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-245.pdf
Real GDP per capita growth vs. real median family income
There are many issues that have to be addressed dealing with wages in the US that goes far beyond the minimum wage question. The workforce trends salary/hourly ratio has basically remained unchanged, even with an increase in workforce and a shift in employment sectors. Real median household income peaked in 1999 but Real GDP per capita continues to increase.
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By fonewear 2014-02-16 15:36:50
Did I see the class warfare signal? I'm calling Batman right now.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-16 15:38:30
Did I see the class warfare signal? I'm calling Batman right now.
No, contribute or go away.
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Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-02-16 18:13:36
everyone should make 1,000 dollars an hour then everyone in the USA will be rich!
that's how economies work, right?
Not enough, the evil rich emuch over there is making $10,000 an hour and thus everyone should make as much.
It's just a form of socialism. Force everyone to have the same net income / disposable income level via wage control and a progressive tax system which puts further power into the government to shape and mold society.
And yes these people here are actually arguing for unskilled labor to make as much as semi-skilled and skilled / professional labor. That's what the talk about a "living wage" is. The cost of living in any particular location isn't some random number, it's based on the sum of the average incomes of the local population. So there can never be a "living wage" as a minimum, any attempt to create one just raise's the averaged cost of living of that location as long as there are other people making more then that living wage. This is the reason I refuse to take positions in the Virginia / Maryland area even though they pay 2x my current salary. The cost of living in those area's is astronomical and it would be a lot of stress / hassle for barely any increase in disposable income.
Disposable income is what people should be discussing here, not absolute wage.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-02-16 18:44:22
A clever way to force everyone to make about the same wage would be to fine employers for forcing people to work over 25 hours a week. Also maybe they should fine people for making over X amount of dollars by offering them less of a subsidy for mandatory health insurance. They should probably pass a law that does that.
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By Ragnarok.Azryel 2014-02-16 18:59:54
What I don’t understand is how Beyoncé can make $50 million a year and no one seems to care, but when someone who runs a company that employs hundreds, if not thousands of people, that actually makes a contribution to driving the economy makes a fraction of those earnings people grab their torches and pitchforks chanting a mantra of inequality… What is the standard by which we condone and/or scorn another's success?
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-16 19:33:34
What I don’t understand is how Beyoncé can make $50 million a year and no one seems to care, but when someone who runs a company that employs hundreds, if not thousands of people, that actually makes a contribution to driving the economy makes a fraction of those earnings people grab their torches and pitchforks chanting a mantra of inequality… What is the standard by which we condone and/or scorn another's success?
Last I checked, Beyonce wasn't making 50M a year stripping American companies and shipping jobs overseas. She also employs hundreds or thousands of people all across the industry directly and indirectly.
That said, I agree, but public figures aren't on the same level for hatred that faceless CEO's are.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-02-16 20:18:09
._.
It's not the fact that people make a lot of money. It's that some people make money in ways that are detrimental to society while skirting any kind of repercussions that earns people's scorn.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-02-16 20:21:53
yes lots of positive role models in Hip Hop none promoting anything detrimental to society.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-02-16 20:25:29
I wouldn't condone any of that either. What's your point?
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-02-16 20:29:06
Seemed like you were replying to the Beyonce post who is married to a Hip Hop mogul who made his fortune promoting and glorifying a lifestyle detrimental to society.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-02-16 20:39:37
Who cares who she's married to? The post was about an ill-perceived double standard using Beyonce as an example, and I'm saying it's incorrect.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-02-16 20:44:45
Hip Hop has destroyed more homes than any CEO ever did and her fortune is a direct result.
By Jetackuu 2014-02-16 20:47:16
and we've hit level retard, I wonder when we'll hit full retard again.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-02-16 20:50:50
I'm sorry you seem to disagree with me. You do not believe Hip Hop influence has destroyed households?
By Jetackuu 2014-02-16 20:53:02
The comment from you doesn't deserve an in depth response.
By Fumiku 2014-02-16 20:54:40
I find your chart of real median familiy income vs productivity interesting.
I would assume the increase in productivity is due to automation?
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-16 20:54:59
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »I'm sorry you seem to disagree with me. You do not believe Hip Hop influence has destroyed households?
I don't, not any moreso than reality tv, alcohol, economic hardship, etc. Hip Hop is a red herring to try and drag this thread off of wages and skills gaps and into radical right la-la land.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2014-02-16 20:57:56
Only in LaLa Land has hip hop not had an enormously detrimental effect on society. What were those felony statistics Eric Holder was going on about the other day?
If you cannot handle this discussion I understand.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-02-16 21:02:36
Got any data showing ANY correlation between hip-hop music and the pathetically ambiguous idea of "detriment effect on society"?
By Jetackuu 2014-02-16 21:04:17
Got any data showing ANY correlation between hip-hop music and the pathetically ambiguous idea of "detriment effect on society"? You're being baited sir, come back.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-02-16 21:04:47
An unexpected derail appears.
Hip hop is a broad term, but the more extreme elements of that genre are a symptom of a larger problem very much related to the subjects discussed in this thread already.
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By Fumiku 2014-02-16 21:06:04
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »Hip Hop has destroyed more homes than any CEO ever did and her fortune is a direct result.
I wouldn't say just hip hop, but I would agree that music in general does.
Sylph.Systematicchaos said: »Minimum talent nets you minimum wages.
I’ve seen several mentions of the fast food industry in this thread, and if McDonald’s has come to be considered as a “career option” in this country, then we, my friends, have far bigger problems at hand.
Such as looking down on people for the jobs that they perform?
Is there something particularly wrong with being a farm hand? A shoe salesman? A plumber/electrician/carpenter/general contractor? A welder? A rancher? An electronic component assembler? A seamstress/tailor? A photographer? A fast-food worker? A doctor? A lawyer (all jokes aside)? A janitor?
I'm in no way saying that you have to pay all of the above equally.
But you shouldn't be essentially stating that these people are worthless, or bring little to no value to the table.
Some of those are worthy career options, but some jobs are not careers. They are jobs better suited to high-school age workers, or older people simply working for health insurance or to supplement what they already have. Working for McDonalds should in no way, shape, or form, be able to feed a family of 4, or 2 for that matter, unless they are ordering from you.
Why shouldn't it?
Because 16 year olds can do it and there is no way I am going to spend 30 dollars for a cheese burger so everyone can make 50k a year....
I will agree with have major income issues. It is cheaper where I live to be on welfare than it is to drive 25 miles to work each day for 32 hours a week and have to pay for a car, insurance, and gas at 7.50 an hour, however that being said the issue is not easy to solve.
http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/371175/federal-minimum-wage-too-high-long-term-unemployed-reihan-salam
Wealthy suggest a training wage under minimum wage to "stimulate" hiring and training of long term unemployed...
The real issue on bottom line profits are that consumer spending is flat-lined. This leads to business growing profits on the backs of employees with lower wages, less or no benefits, and only offering part time work. If a business is suffering from a lack of business caused by a lack of consumer spending, lowering the wage to $4 (training wage) an hour won't create any more jobs because business still isn't experience any increase in consumer spending. Where is the money coming from to hire new workers ? Instead business would just exploit this, replacing good paying existing jobs with lower paying jobs to streamline their profit margin. On the flip side, if the basic cost of living is $14 an hour for a single person working a full-time job as it is in most states, raising the minimum wage to anything less than this basic cost of living will also result in only negative consequences, ie. jobs cuts, reducing of hours, higher consumer prices, because still there is no increase in consumer spending for business to afford that. It is only after wage is higher than the basic cost of living that there would be an increase in business through consumer spending which could offset such a raise in wage. To be clear .... if it costs $14 an hour working a full-time job just for the basics in cost of living, they can raise the wage to $13 an hour and the only business that will benefit from that wage increase are landlords, banks, utility companies, transportation, and the tax man. The rest of the businesses out there are SOL because consumers still won't have one penny to spend stimulating the economy. This issue at hand is not an issue of class inequality, ie. rich vs. poor, it is an issue of inequality in wage vs. cost of living. Minimum wage is as counter-productive as the cost of living and they have no problem with the cost of living rising every year. They have allowed this problem to occur and have let it get out of hand. You can't fix this with education so everyone has a college degree because the payoff on that after a person pays off the debt of that education and is actually contributing to economy growth won't have results for decades. You also can't fix this problem with subsidies and bailouts, the ONLY solution is for wage to be higher than the cost of living so the result is massive consumer spending and real economic growth.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2013USpn_13ps2n_400010
Reason for using "~" is these figures (%) change quarterly and this is for general ideal.
The US government spends (Not including Medical, since my personal belief is everyone should have medical care) ~2.6% of the ~$16 Trillion (2.1% GDP impoverish family medical welfare, to make a point) ~416 Billion/yr (2.6%) & 336 Billion/yr. (2.1%). Also which is not listed under welfare spending but rather "Agriculture" spending are the food stamp programs which amount to ~80 billion/yr. totaling ~832 Billion/yr.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/federal-food-stamp-program-spent-record-804b-fy-2012
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm
The poverty guidelines in the US. are roughly $12k/yr. Single +4k/yr. per additional household member. This is the equivalent to having a part time job(32 hours a week) with no benefits at minimum wage. Consider ~15% of the US lives in poverty, with a population of 314 Million, nearly 47 million people live in poverty which in turn creates the need and dependency of social welfare. 22% of these citizens are children who have no recourse for their situation. Leaving ~36.5 million working age Americans in the pits - dependency.The government spends nearly $17-18k/yr. per individual person in poverty. This does not include tax subsidies for programs like EIC which pays out about 1.2 Billion a year to low income families with dependent children. This is small dent in the big picture. Link for reading.
http://www.pewstates.org/projects/stateline/headlines/a-renewed-push-for-earned-income-tax-credit-in-states-85899539729
Getting to the point, if we where to take the over 22k/yr. spent in welfare services and divert them into a living wage subsidy supporting a higher base minimum wage of nearly 2x ($14.5) the current minimum wage for persons who are working age (18+) [maybe keep lower minimum wage($7.25) for ages 15-17 who are restricted to part time and often live as a dependent]. we would in turn begin to nullify the need for such large social welfare. as this wage would create independent earning as well as stimulate economic growth via increased purchasing power.
Why should this be a government subsidy? Look, the government is already paying this money out. We know we can not trust corporate America to care for the well being of their country and those who work for them. A subsidy would both benefit employees and lesson the bottom-line of the employer.
I truly feel the original intent of social welfare has long been lost to the stepping stone it was meant to be. It has become a crutch for generational poverty and a means to create social apathy and dependency in the impoverished and working class of America.
If we can start to take the right steps now on matters like this as well as clean up some other issues in our country and government we may be able to set forth a bright and lucrative future for our children.
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