Could Any Game Be As EPIC As Old FFXI..

His posts may be long winded, and more than those of you who don't like things unless they are handed to you in small increments.

Onorgurl and I may not agree on some things, but at least I respect him for being thoughtful.

Again this is because they are afraid to not do all the flashy flashy lights shows and easy mode borderline point and click gameplay that games in the genre have become.

If only they could muster the courage to do something BRAVELY DEFAULT with the series then maybe it will be as amazing as it was in the past.

I'm eager to play Bravely. I just need to finish up my current RPG.

100% Agree with that !
When Abyssea came out, i say : "OMG SE spits on my face,they are fool to kill lot of invest for numbers years with ls friend and teamwork ( and drama ^^ ), all that on 1 *** update"

If SE planned that to the start it was ok but that why i call an epic fail !

I think this about sums it up. As others said, for those of us that had never played MMO's, were still relatively naive enough to know any better, it wasn't about the mass-ness of the game, it was about the small intimate and personal challenges and successes. As soon as you eased up on the challenges (through levels or changes to mechanics by devo) to keep people "fresh", they were able to have a progressive approach to the new adventures. While the end-game stuff "sucked", it was SUPPOSED TO PEOPLE! Not everyone on the server was entitled to every piece of gear like they are now. It was intended to be reflective of the real world trophies. All the way up to follow the "You have to cheat to win" ideals.

The rest of us, had dreams and wishes, but still found solace in making and playing with friends, having fun with accessible content, and learning mechanics and finite details of our favorite jobs and being the best "whatever" you could be.

With the childish, ego-entitled, and "gimmie everything" culture we're stuck with now-a-days, enough *** cried and whined that the "casual gamer should get that too!!!111omfg!1" until ***is feed on a silver spoon right up everyone's ***. I left in 2006/7 and came back last March, and while the game has changed DRAMATICALLY, you need to learn to hold on to the past and fight the future kicking and screaming. There's nothing us old *** can do to fend off the bitchy little *** forever. Now get off my *** lawn you little shits!

I managed to get 4 friends/acquaintances during the Abyssea era, 2 returning and 2 brand new. How did I managed to convince them? I believe it went something like:
"No, guys really, you don't have to wait all evening to get decent EXP anymore."
...
"Yes, even if you wanted to level your DRK again, Player X."
...
"Don't worry, we can all make progress toward earning and finishing gear. FFXI now lets us log in and immediately start playing."

Abyssea help bring them back and, unfortunetly, the iLvl fiasco helped push them away again.


Really looking back on when I originally level my first 75 job it's incredible what we all put up with. It took me a year to get WHM to 75. A year! I still remember how blown away I was when I joined one particular "good" EXP party and I was getting a staggering 10K an hour! I was lucky, being WHM I usually found a party after about 10-40 minutes after putting my flag up. Forget about my friend who wanted to level DRK. He told me he would literally put his flag up when he got home from work and then turn to his TV and play another game while waiting to play the game. And many times the invites just didn't come. All evening.

I also remember when I offered to help an LS friend kill Simurgh for the drop he wanted. First time I ever camped an HNM-ish monster. I couldn't believe how boring it was. And to top it off after waiting a few hours for a chance to advance just ONE of our characters, someone else rushed in and took Simurgh. That's not even counting the times I camped guys like Overlord Bakgodek or Charybdis. I don't think there was a single time me, my friends or my LS didn't get sniped on an NM camp and ugh, all the drama, all the petty remarks and disorder. Jeez, I just wanted to play the game.

Even my greatest achievement in-game, finishing CoP pre-nerfs, didn't leave me with a great feeling of satisfaction. It was more of a huge wave of relief in knowing I wouldn't have to go through that again. I still remember how utterly demoralizing it was to once again lose that Airship fight because I knew it meant I was going to spend the next week farming gil for more meds so my static could try again. CoP, for me, quickly stopped being fun and started being chore I had to do every week because I couldn't just up and leave my static but it was just so tedious and frustrating. I also remember when we stayed up all night because we were tired of how long it was taking to finish. After getting our rings, most of us just stopped playing for a while afterwards because we just burned ourselves out and the game(and by extention, the connections we made with the people we played with) just demanded so much.


Recently, I've been hearing people say things like, "Why even play FFXI if you don't want to play with people, etc." and I just want to say to that: Not everyone that starts playing FFXI does it because it's multiplayer. Personally, I started playing because I liked the battle system, the wealth of gear and character customization options and the fact that it was a huge game with a fleshed out world that would be updated regularly (Plus, I've always loved the FF angle of putting Fantasy and Sci-fi elements together). Sure, me and my friends started playing together at the same time but it never was the main reason why I started playing or why I continue to play.

And now, the fact that SE's mindset is currently low man party-centric and are so concerned about accessibility of content means I get to play more or stop and start playing all day, all at my convenience. AND I get to do it when I log in; not 2+ hours from then because everything requires an alliance or static to do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not AGAINST playing and partying with people, I just think it's really nice that I'm able to have the option to play by myself and if someone wants to join me, they can too.


TL:DR: Aside from the obvious iLvl blunder that we're trying to overcome, when I consider RoE, Trust, Monstrosity(plus the MON vs MON system I'm sincirly waiting for) and more, I think FFXI is probably the best it's ever been right now and the future is looking bright.

If you think Abyssea ruined XI, you're off your rocker and should consult your doctor about new, stronger medication.

Abyssea was the breath of fresh air WOTG should have been. It gave many jobs the opportunity they had been crying for and ushered in an era where for a while people thought the SE staff had been held at gunpoint by a band of disgruntled fans. We got the official forums, a staff that communicated their intentions to customers and a boost in the complexity/tools of existing classes. People were stunned when SE responded to issues and did what players asked for regarding pop NMs, Abyssea ??? repops, adjustments to classes like PUP, easing up on the hardcore restrictions of WS etc.

This is the same company under which Tanaka (through Sundi) had been given the solution to Kings (which amusingly got implemented later during Abyssea) and handwaved it with some balance ***. Just getting the dev team to say anything about anything went from being a fight to at least some intermittent communication.

Personally, my BLU went from being a capable all-arounder to a beast of a class with Haste/Fresh/Triple Attack alongside a slew of new tools and spells alongside major adjustment to things like PUP. The amount of growth some jobs got during the 75-99 phase is astounding and for me BLU was a standout.

What killed XI was the decision to move development resources from it to XIV 1.0 which *** up WOTG leading to disaster and stagnation. By the time SE could churn out Abyssea years later, the damage had already been done to XI and then XIV went up in flames. SE choked XIs lifelines only to release the biggest turd since Superman 64. Since then, SE has been trying to pull XI out of a tailspin while rebooting XIV on new wings but that era of Evoliths, Fay Augments, Sandworm, SCNMs, VNM and Yilbegan was a huge black mark on the game.

Had SE kept proper development resources on XI throughout WOTG in the manner leading through Abyssea and beyond the game would have reached new heights. Had things like Monstrosity, Delve and the fine tuning been done during WOTG we'd have had something great.

What killed XI was poor decision-making and greed on behalf of SE. Tanaka being a stubborn *** also played heavily.

@Tikal

If you can't see how it can be used as an insult, and how it applies to him in this, and many other instances, then perhaps it is you who needs to contemplate a redirection in your goals. That is to say, a better education.

@Squishytaru

Subjective. Though your tastes in people are rather interesting, and odd.

Rate up.

Having played a few games during and since XI (I left slightly after SoA)I find it odd that anything that is deemed "challenging" in modern MMO's eventually gets nerfed because it's "too difficult" for most players. While I sympathize with the pain and suffering we all endured back in the pre-WOTG days, I appreciated my gear and the rewards I had much more when I had to be clever, competent, or persistent to get them. I feel like a CoP ring was as much a status symbol as it was a piece of useful gear - few players could "accidentally" make it all the way through CoP.

I also miss the value of non-capped levels. Every game I have played since XI, you are pretty much useless until you hit your cap. I remember doing my RDM hat fight with whoever we could find/beg to help us - Was a mix of players from level 35 - 65. Even a level 35 WHM could toss a cure from a distance to save the DRG who was tanking ;)

Someone please explain this mentality to me. Let's nevermind that it is almost exclusively subscribed to by the minority who benefited from this kind of imbalance.

I've thought about that whole trophy mentality. After thinking for a long time, I just don't get it. Where Relic weapons are right now, i.e., accessible to anyone willing to put in a few months of effort, seems just about right. But those few people who managed to complete one several years ago whine incessantly because they're no longer a special, unique flower (who either spent 5 years of their life on a pointless goal or manipulated a lot of people into doing it on their behalf). In WoW, Mists of Pandaria decided to no longer do a Legendary weapon that required the kind of time commitment or luck that previously limited it to a small niche and instead made a complex questline available to anyone willing to raid, such that anyone who puts in a bit of time can get a Legendary cloak appropriate to their character.

This isn't like logging in tomorrow and finding an iLevel 119 Mythic weapon sitting in your delivery box (and all those people complaining about the proliferation of trophy items still make sure to buy Mog Bonanza marbles on every mule and alternate account they have, so hurrah hypocrisy), it's a time-consuming and difficult process that is nonetheless accessible to everyone. I'm a paying customer, so why exactly should I be systematically locked out of the content I've paid for if I'm unwilling to commit half a decade to the process? I can get a doctorate degree in less time.

Trophy items should be trophy items. I'll just refer to World of Warcraft: there are a number of mounts that either require beating top-level content on the hardest setting or require doing old content at a 1% probability. For the most part, they all look quite nice and are often recognizable from a distance. They're also utterly useless (nowadays, anyhow). They're the perfect trophy item: a show of commitment to either do something difficult or spend a great deal of time. If your ego must be based on virtual items (instead of, say, your performance in the game or your bonds with your friends), I think being able to AFK while on top of a massive phoenix is considerably more impressive than being able to AFK with a gold-tinted weapon.

And why is it ever considered good gameplay to make something unpleasant? I've suffered mind-numbing grinds and poor drop rates (e.g., most of the top-tier weapons in FFXII), but I do it while watching a movie or something. I understand it would be a little pointless to be able to just pick up Excalibur before you even hit level 10, but it seems like there ought to be a middle ground between "handed to you" and "you'll never get it."

#SWAG #YOLO #NOT-A-TRY-HARD

If you're not trying, you're doing it wrong. In everything. And despite not caring for Ornogul's candor, his content is usually keen. Yours, on the other hand, is ironically and aptly, dribble.

This is the one and only thing from old FFXI that I genuinely wish we could find a way to replicate. I have never run across another game where you could actually use players of less-than-capped levels to assist with something. Leveling up in MMOs is all-too-often a completely solo experience unless you group up with friends because there is literally no incentive to mix levels. The random dungeon finder in WoW is actually pretty great because it lets you group up with people during the mid levels, though it's a shame that you end up meeting folks on other servers whom you'll never interact with again.

On the other hand, though, the exact reason why you might suffer bringing a level 40 person to a fight designed for level 60 is because the level grind is so abysmally bad that you have difficulty finding max-leveled people.

@Tikal

Except what Ornogul's wall-o'-text portrait is well-polished dribble of what he himself cannot understand. While there may be others of the same mind, it's all the same. People play and enjoy games for different reasons, do not presume to be able to understand everything, and have what you enjoy and understand to be some kind of righteous path. Absurd.

This was part of my point/rant. If the game design and structure didn't cater to blasting through content and provide shortcuts to endgame, it didn't matter. There was stuff for all levels and skills to do that yielded rewards and quality time spent (Eco-Warrior, AF missions for friends, fishing parties, BC's, naked races to Jeuno, trolling RMT, who knows what else).

It was only the "1337-or-bust" game play (Sky, Sea, BCNM) that yielded horrible results for those not 300+ lbs, Mountain Dew for Blood, and with Cheetos tattoos on their fingers. While waiting for groups, not getting invites, ect all kinda sucked, just like getting your Osode, when it happened you were all that much more appreciative and proud. Hard work and earning your way through education and perseverance are lost on 80%+ people that you come in contact with now-a-days. If anyone thinks that earning your way isn't "fair" and that you should "Always get what you want", your part of a bigger problem that far outreaches FFXI's decline. So go home and re-think your life.

Sorry maybe it was unclear when I phrased it. My point wasn't that it was a negative perspective to look up the ladder to those above you. Without admiration and goals, we don't ever progress in any personal endeavors. My thought process was always "Sure, if I had that gear with 4 more dex than mine currently has, my SA damage would be better", but to follow that goal was my prerogative or not. If I thought that was worth it, I would have joined an end-game LS and fought with others seeking out leet-dom (The fact that I did for years is irrelevant for principle discussion here though... lol)

The middle ground was something that SE tired to constantly find though, but ultimately it was a moot point, as human nature is to compete and defeat others for notoriety. But letting that live would have been their best bet, not to lower the bar I think. Leets would become leeter or rage quit. The community as a whole would have remained friendly and helpful like they intended. Least one could have hoped...

A) You admitted in not reading it, and yet, you call it dribble.

How can you call it dribble if you didn't read it?

B) It is called an opinion. Onorgul's "dribble" was well thought out and presented. However, yours was not.

Yes, people have different viewpoints, regardless of games or their personal history or whatnot. Calling out his opinion about how a game was, then following up with the above post is hypocritical because you are basically calling yourself out without realizing it...

I liked the game back then, I still do today. That is why I play it.

Yeah it's opinion, until it turned into "If you like what I don't like you're an idiot/masochist" thing.

I couldn't play Dark Souls longer than 5hrs, cuz I can't stand dying over and over and over again. But I wouldn't go tell ppl if you enjoy Dark Souls you're an idiot and wasting time.

Deathdealer, your avatar is absolutely amazing.

@Kingnobody

I obviously read it, it was an insult to insinuate that it isn't worth considering. I can't discern him being a try hard if I hadn't first read it, a simple wall-o'-text wouldn't be enough.


As for his "opinions", the manner in which he conveyed them was to belittle anyone who would think otherwise.

"The game was atrocious but we tolerated it because of whatever reason."
-Onorgul.


Extremely subjective, and conveyed in a manner that (quite frankly, false) as if to be a statement.

Tell me again, how his dribble is "well thought out" after you told me you liked the game back then, please.

Apologies for misinterpreting.

And you do make a good point: it isn't necessary to have the best gear, especially if you're not doing the highest difficulty stuff. I was quite content to solo around or low-man older content instead of, say, trying to do Legion right after its release to get a remote chance at the top-tier gear there. I guess it just bugs me how outrageously out-of-reach Square-Enix decided to make Relic and Mythic weapons at their outset and that they tied a bunch of desirable items to world spawns.

On the other hand, though, if you have no interest in doing 4- and 5-star Ark Angel fights, there's no particular reason you should worry about getting gear better than what you get from Records of Eminence. And I certainly understand the "You need to work for your strength" paradigm. I guess my objection is that the amount of effort was ridiculously disproportionate and it encouraged bad player behavior. Competition should further everyone's goals instead of being a zero-sum game where one person's gain is another's loss.

Besides, if Seekers of Adoulin has taught us anything, it's that merely having Oatixur and other shiny gear does not a competent player make. It's still pretty easy to distinguish excellent from good from awful.

I've been avoiding your little cry for attention, but this one has me laughing. Exactly how does my spin differ from yours, chief? Of course I am going to phrase things in such a way that suggests I'm right. What kind of blithering dolt would do differently? You certainly haven't, what with all the direct ad hominem arguments you keep making.

Edit: Misread.
Again, it was his opinion. Even as Afania stated, it was a "masochist" thing, but it is still his opinion. He was neither talking for me or for you, but for himself. Even though it was worded as a statement, those who can read between the lines can tell that this is an opinion, not fact.

Because he expressed his viewpoint clearly. I may not agree with his viewpoint, as I stated on the top of this page, but I do respect that this is not dribble, but a well thought out argument. To call it dribble is, in my opinion, an insult to him (which we know you were doing anyway).

Just wait, I'll turn liberal yet!

Pretty hilarious you would showcase my insult and claim it unsavory, when almost the entirety of Onorgul's post on the previous page is one big insult to anyone who would think differently. You, apparently being one of those people, if only in some aspects.

Yet you can respect someone like this. You're confused, friend.

RE:Abyssea sucks

I think aby gameplay design was absolutely great, maybe atma were a bit too much, but the progression was excellent(and exp speeding up too). If anything what I hated about it was that it's a parallel universe bs -.- potential wasted.

So tell me, oh my little self-centered derailer, how should I phrase my opinion? By saying things in a forceful manner, I have inspired people to respond. By explicating my thoughts, I set an example that merely saying "I like it" or "I don't like it" is insufficient and boring.

Seriously, what do you expect a forum discussion to look like? Post a picture of a lolcat and then utter silence as people click the plus or minus button? I think what has your tail in a knot is that you can't explain/justify your opinion which is contrary to mine. I'd invite you to try because I wouldn't be on a forum if I wasn't interested in discussing things with other people.

I really do think that gets lost. If I just wanted to soapbox, I'd write a blog. If you disagree with me, for heaven's sake, debate with me. Tell me I'm wrong and make the effort to prove it. Even if you don't change my opinion, I'll respect you for having an opinion of your own that you're willing to defend.

He didn't insult anyone truly.

He stated his opinion, you jumped on him, you threw out insults directed at him.

I didn't agree with parts of what he said, but you know what? He is entitled to his opinion. You are entitled to yours, but you have yet to throw out any opinions, have you?

Instead, you try to demean his viewpoint by insults, which btw, you are trying too hard to do.

Just because I don't agree with him doesn't mean I don't respect what he said. There is a difference. You would do well to understand that...