Guillotine Question

I didn't come into this thread just to antagonize you, but, um

Doesn't it seem kinda pointless to still be arguing about this, even though the OP's question got answered in the first two posts?

Nope.

EDIT: Wasn't aware anyone was arguing really. Nothing wrong with debating which armor will allow you to get the most out of your WS.

With decent gear yes a DRK can reach those numbers, but my point is one of the big things an 'AH DRK' will lack is accuracy. Amir feet are easy to get (imo the easiest on my list) and they provide them with what they need.

Once you get a few '+1s' and other decent gear then your need to the accuracy will drop (as you are getting it else where), and at this point it is down to designing with a good balance.

Depending on the gear you have avalible, the mob you are fighting then they can be useful.

^ this is a knowledgable cat! Also British ftw.

ITT: People still assuming DRK has lulzy accuracy.

Thanks :D



Every 'AH DD' has lol accuracy. Even with and A+ skill in a 2 handed weapon you still need ~80 accuracy from gear to reach 95% hit rate on Greater colibri. (excluding merits, accuracy increasing JAs, songs, rolls etc)

80 accuracy...

Think about what an AH DD is wearing to TP:
Turban = 0
Neck = 5-10
Ears = 0-3
Hauby = 13
Dusk hands = 0
Rings = 10
Amemet mantle +1 = 0
Swift belt = 3
Some legs = 0-5
Dusk feet = 0

That's ~40, so only half way there. (Roughly a 75% hit rate on birds)

And for WS:
Askar = 3
Neck = 5-10
Ears = 0-3
Hauby = 13
Pallas's Bracelets = -3
Rings = 0-10 (depending on how 'aggressive' people gear)
Amemet mantle +1 = 0
Warwolf = 3
Some legs = 0-5
Some feet = 0

And that's even less ~20-30. (Roughly a 65-70% hit rate on birds)

So yes, basically any job that is solely geared from the AH or has limited end game gear needs more accuracy. The only possible exception is DRG with the job traits.

And that's a low end merit mob... Not anything 'evasive'.

Before any one says anything; I know accuracy in WS is only really relavent to those using multihit WS.

Except you've got an AH DD wearing Swift Belt, which is against the point, and Pallas Bracelets which are a big no-no til you know your accuracy and can support them. Not to mention lolWarwolf for a multihit.

Shitty gear choices != AH DD accuracy being lulzy. You also left out Dexterity post-2h-buff.

So an unmerited Mithra DRK with capped 276 skill and 75 DEX has:

200+floor(0.9*76)+floor(75*3/4)=268+56 = 324 base accuracy. If you don't know what I did here you don't know what you're talking about. Any accuracy from gear is added before food.

Including DEX additions, let's go with just:
Berk: +13.75
Dual Wood/Sniper: +10
Life Belt: +10

For 357 base accuracy (assuming no other +DEX gear to pull that .75 up).

Just eating Crab Sushi (+13% accuracy), for +46 accuracy gives you 403 accuracy, just four short of cap on a lv82 Bird, 93% hitrate.

Unless someone can show that Crab Sushi's +% is capped low, but other sushis with +15% or less have been shown to have no or extremely high caps.

Just four AH'able pieces to be near cap with food, not to mention any +DEX or other Thick set pieces said DRK should be wearing.

Lolsushi on birds

Edit**

As a 2hander.

Agreed, but the easiest way to not suck. I could say the same for lolAccuracySong on birds because every damn time I'll be partied with a polearm SAM demanding it.


Fix'd, go to MJSP and eat pizza.

Birds are better than mamool though :(

Yeah, that amuses me. Then they go on about how awesome they are... holy crap, you do well when the songs are entirely tailored to you? Never would've guessed.

Nope. Mamool have a higher exp/hr 'cap' and are far less competitive a camp. Did you know birds cap at 27k/hr without Corsair's Roll and pulling both levels? Anyone claiming more is full of s~~t, its mathematically impossible based on spawn rate and exp per kill. Mamool just require intelligence and a little work and difficulty is easily compensated by better food choices, and their 'cap', though harder to reach, is something like 43k/hr.

Allow me to slice through your socialized assumptions with a simple bizarre example: Just because everyone is wearing kneepads in the mall does not mean they are stylish or effective in preventing injury while walking around the mall, they just do it because everyone else does (but I'll be damned if the person not wearing kneepads in the mall is not chided as an outsider and aberration).

The real set would be something like:
Berk: +13.75
Chiv: +5
Rings: +10
***. ear: +2
Lifebelt: +10
Fourth Div. hands: +5
Thick legs: +2
Thick feet: +2

Haste sucks without more haste. Save it for when you can get at least +10%.

373 accuracy without food, 78% hitrate. One Madrigal (but you're damn right an unmerited AH DRK is going to take an accuracy song) gives them at least 400 Accuracy, 91% hitrate. Hunter's Roll is a little spottier, but I think its +15 minimum for 388, 85% hitrate.

So yes, even unmerited (suck) DRKs can get respectable accuracy with just AH gear.

Edit: I think I can cap outhit that AH DRK with COR on birds stark-naked with no food or buffs, lemmie crunch it:
343 base accuracy, +20 Souleater, +20 Diabolic Eye, +5 Hasso:
388 accuracy, 85% hitrate, and still have 399 attack :D

Nooooooo. This was killed off back in 2007 or so. Haste does not need a minimum to work at.

Use the equation

(Increase in haste)/(100 - [Haste + Increase in haste]) x 100

to get its impact in %. Compare to other relative gains by stat. Haste is still powerful! The Haste from Swift Belt on its own is ALWAYS contributing 4.17%~ DoT/WS frequency minimum.

And 43k/hr? <_< How? Killing all birds/wivres with Corsair's Roll gives you higher exp/hr and is FAR less risky... not to mention Skoffins can kill chains VERY easily.

Those numbers are without Skoffins or Wivres (and I've never heard of or seen someone kill Wivres as well). You do have to pull from the other side of the Skoffins though (camped on the steps adjacent to them), but they won't give a proper all /SAM party trouble (Third Eye eats Fang Rush completely).

Adding Haste before accuracy is capped (or rather, as better advice, roughly 90%) is exactly the retardation that Argettio is spewing. Haste is firstly reliant on more Haste, and if you're taking accuracy songs you're not getting the Haste to make losing Accuracy more worthwhile. Swinging faster to hit less != effective.

***is situational. I already pointed out that we, as merited DRKs, out-hit unmerited AH DRKs while wearing only a weapon.

You need about 2.5~3x the value of Haste in Accuracy to be worth giving it up for at 0 => x% haste. Which slots give you that option to push acc instead? <_<

Dispelling Wind is destructive as HELL and most really good bird parties pull Wivre <_< you'll lose chain if you don't!

So, I should use my O-hat/Saotome, Over my Wala turban is what you are saying. Swinging faster but missing more is a general statement, because when u break it down, swinging faster and hitting slightly less can sometimes do better DoT.

As I said, you don't pull the Skoffins but you can handle one if it agros. Chain-busting as they are, its not hyper-critical to Exp/Hr. (you lose one mob's worth of exp getting back to Chain #5, but have Puks as fodder which drop to two good WS each).

MJSP: Chaining isn't as critical, not nearly as contested, can eat proper food, can /SAM without idiot RDMs whining, can make use of DRK's +Acc JAs (SE and DE) for the heavy stuff, can make proper use of Chaos Roll without winding up capped.

MJSP is simply conducive to parties that don't suck and play on a different level.


If your accuracy is sub-80% and you're thus not getting Marches and your WHM sucks and only Hastes you every twenty minutes, hell yes.

Swinging 5% faster (no other haste buffs) should not override hitting 5% less (the latter gives you more WS over time). Getting marches and Haste for ~40% means that 5% more haste on Turban makes you swing 8.3% faster. Stack more of it and haste does indeed outrun Accuracy gains.

To say that a fresh 75 should wear O.Hat over Turban is not controversial, meanwhile I said nothing about merited and properly geared (You use goddamn relic gear (Saotome) as a comparison FFS) doing the same.

Remember: We're talking about gimp *** here.

Dispelling Wind can wipe Haste/bard buffs/corsair rolls. They can easily slow your exp.

Why can't you use DE at birds? <_< and SE is just gonna be an MP sponge, where MP is quite limited at mamool (but not so much at birds, so if you choose to, you can use it more)!

MMJSP requires a great party to make decent exp in and the top-end results simply aren't as good <_<

EDIT: Haste, not refresh!

Thats why you don't pull them, though sometimes you may agro one, that 43k/hr is without them. Reading comprehension.


Because you forget we're talking about freshly-75 unmerited DRKs. It takes 22 merits to cap Diabolic Eye to a 3/5ths on-time. Using Souleater is just as suicidal as for a merited 75 (unless you take lolMutedSoul).


Fix'd.

If you are full of winsauce and awesome, MJSP is better than 20k/hr for a party with correct buffs and intelligent players. If you're just looking to gimp along for socially-approved 12k/hr because the other level is taken, go to birds. I failed to mention that 43k/hr is an extreme, while the 27k/hr at birds is quite doable, but MJSP can do the same 27k/hr of pulling both levels without going absolutely nuts or having three relics.

Parties camping on top of you aren't a phenomenon limitted to birds <_<

You will -have- to pull Skoffins to make up the exp/hr of a bird camp, and Skoffins drop it, ironically. There aren't enough mobs else, yet alone access to pulling them.

But you used the example of DE at mamools yet implied you can't use it at birds, when it's the same amount of merits either way! Souleater is not something to be used often in a merit situation unless you bring outside healers.

But problem is, I am over 80% acc and I do have more haste gear,and so would an AH DRK at 75 and they will have 10%~ Dusk dusk Wala, so the drk should be near 80%~ pretty easy AH'd, I said Saotome because it has the same acc as O hat, and O hat itself is hard to get, Turban is jokingly easy to get.

Edit**

I cannot attest to DRKS acc new to 75, but I can say they can easily AH(with turban) 10% haste+

Reading Comprehension > You. For the fourth time: YOU DON'T PULL THE SKOFFINS.

Birds are the standard for a fresh 75 to get their merits. Not having DE or Scythe capped is pretty normal. Going to MJSP without these things would be stupid. I suggested MJSP as a camp for when a DRK gets some merits and stops sucking. If you're going to birds on high merits you're just far-over-capping your accuracy and attack 90% of the time (With Capped DE, Last Resort Recast, Last Resort Effect, etc.).

If you haven't figured out that DRK is different by now, you're doing it wrong.

DRK is not SAM
DRK is not DRG
DRK is not PLD

DRK is DRK. It has different considerations at both low grade (such as low, but not unworkable, accuracy when unmerited) and high grade (accuracy overflow for standard mobs, easy attack capping with a Dia III).

Different considerations such as? DRK isn't hard to build. High accuracy/attack and good gear/JA options give us a lot of room to work with.

If you don't pull the skoffins, there aren't enough mobs to get close to matching bird camp's exp. Remember puks are reduced exp! And I pity the BRD who has to pull mobs from one side of the map to the other (as you would have to, to match the exp) through a sea of Skoffins).

You're demonstrating a clear case of 'Never been there, never done it'.

There are more than enough mobs to outdo a bird camp, 43k/hr worth without Skoffins as stated above. Pulling some of the mamool can be a nightmare indeed, but chain-breaks are less excruciating with Puk fodder.

Even doing just 20k/hr (competent WAR DRK COR WHM 2xWhateverElse and not pulling past the Skoffins) is better than any single-level Bird camp can truly manage.

ExpWatch can GTFO too, I've seen it display more than twice the true exp/hr of a camp compared to my KParser total. This is why people will claim >27k/hr out of bird parties.

I've so very rarely avg lower then 20k at bird camp. I think I have actually never done lower then 20k perhr.

I've been in top tier merit parties in both areas; they don't compare. I've literally killed everything in mamool with MNK/WAR DRK/SAM COR(DD) BRD BRD RDM and I've literally wiped both floors many times in birds. They don't compare.

Prove your 43k/hr figure, I don't believe it at all.

Single level bird camp is roughly 20~23/hr you know <_< with occasional pulls from the other layer. The average at mamool using what you just stated would be lucky to hit 17/hr because mamool is HARSH and that setup is mediocre.

I don't believe in expwatch either.

I could say the same about proving your figures with parses, but I can guess the response.

That 27k/hr is no Exp bands, no corsair's roll, no Astral Candescense. Incorporate the latter and you get your anecdotal responses. MJSP gets the same benefits, but if you suck you get suck. MJSP is made for /SAM and COR buffs, none of this /NIN and BRD shiz thats blindly accepted.

Why are you omitting corsairs roll which people use? And we so very rarely actually lose the AC, I do not use EXP band though.

People don't say anything against my figures because they appear accurate. 27k at birds being incredibly high but doable? Plausible. 43k/hr at mamool? POIDH territory.

If you're not meritting with Corsair's Roll on, you're doing it wrong assuming you are choosing your conditions for optimum exp.

Because that was the basic figure to compare the camps. Hypothetical numbers != real numbers, so I guess I'm wrong about calling BS on anyone that claims 30k/hr pulling both levels.

If the party has a COR for Corsair's Roll, that means I'm getting Chaos and even without self-buffs I'm about 50 attack over cap if the RDM or WHM casts Dia II. DRK wastes so much potential at Birds.