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Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees
Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 17:44:30
This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted?
99.999% of the time yeah. >_>
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 17:46:06
I am not ok with this.
Just because Joe Schmoe cop arrests me doesn't mean it's ok for him to stick needles in me to get my blood. After I've been convicted and sentenced, sure I guess since at that point I'm *** anyway, but not before a fair trial has completed do you get to do that. All they do is swab the inside of your cheek...
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2013-06-04 17:47:38
I am not ok with this.
Just because Joe Schmoe cop arrests me doesn't mean it's ok for him to stick needles in me to get my blood. After I've been convicted and sentenced, sure I guess since at that point I'm *** anyway, but not before a fair trial has completed do you get to do that. All they do is swab the inside of your cheek...
in good ole' SD they'll forcibly take your blood for DUI's.
(they also sneak a consent to do so in the fine print when obtaining a driver's licsence here.)
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 17:48:10
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted?
99.999% of the time yeah. >_> I don't know if it's even that high... It should never come to that though... and to most people, as long as its not them, its okay to convict an innocent man here and there...
It also gets really expensive for the taxpayers when you let them out...
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Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 17:49:07
I am not ok with this.
Just because Joe Schmoe cop arrests me doesn't mean it's ok for him to stick needles in me to get my blood. After I've been convicted and sentenced, sure I guess since at that point I'm *** anyway, but not before a fair trial has completed do you get to do that. All they do is swab the inside of your cheek...
in good ole' SD they'll forcibly take your blood for DUI's.
(they also sneak a consent to do so in the fine print when obtaining a driver's licsence here.) Well damn... Why do they do that instead of the less invasive methods?
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 17:51:29
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted?
99.999% of the time yeah. >_>
No.
In what way are you defining the criteria for your random statistic? Are you going district by district, state by state or averaging them all together? Are you separating out each crime or only going by averaging again? If you are averaging, is this only for violent or are you lumping in white collar, drug, etc into your filter?
I would say 99.999% is a very optimistic statistic.
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Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2013-06-04 17:53:21
The police are not your friends. They exist for the sole purpose of finding people for the district attorney to prosecute, nothing more.
Sorry, around here they also function as revenue enhancers.
Not your friends in that role either.
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Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 17:54:02
This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted? It's also long established that we're willing to put up with an imperfect system in order to serve our broader interests. The use of DNA as physical evidence has almost certainly freed more wrongly convicted criminals than it has produced false positives.
That aside, it's a hefty bar to pass to go from criminal charges to conviction. Just because your DNA is a partial match to a prior crime scene does not guarantee you will be convicted of that crime.
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Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 17:56:32
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted?
99.999% of the time yeah. >_>
No.
In what way are you defining the criteria for your random statistic? Are you going district by district, state by state or averaging them all together? Are you separating out each crime or only going by averaging again? If you are averaging, is this only for violent or are you lumping in white collar, drug, etc into your filter?
I would say 99.999% is a very optimistic statistic.
I think im actually being Pessimistic I think people wrongly convicted happen way less often then that.
Wheres my evidence? I could say the same to you >_>
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 18:01:41
This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted? It's also long established that we're willing to put up with an imperfect system in order to serve our broader interests. And in fact, the use of DNA as physical evidence has almost certainly freed more wrongly convicted criminals than it has produced false positives.
That aside, it's a hefty bar to pass to go from criminal charges to conviction. Just because your DNA is a partial match to a prior crime scene does not guarantee you will be convicted of that crime.
I have no problem with DNA being used to solve crime. I have a problem with it being obtained without a warrant.
As you pointed out DNA has freed many "criminals" from prison. People who had been in prison for years (decades in some cases). This does not enhance the case for showing how the justice system deals with human errors, to me.
DNA has also incarcerated people who were not guilty, who were in prison for years.
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Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 18:02:04
Quote: Since 1989, there have been 891 exonerations based on DNA evidence. But these represent only a small percentage of wrongful convictions, including violent felonies and non-violent charges. Other experts estimate that the rate is between 4 and 6 percent, with up to 136,000 innocent people behind bars.
link
Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 18:02:28
This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted? It's also long established that we're willing to put up with an imperfect system in order to serve our broader interests. And in fact, the use of DNA as physical evidence has almost certainly freed more wrongly convicted criminals than it has produced false positives.
That aside, it's a hefty bar to pass to go from criminal charges to conviction. Just because your DNA is a partial match to a prior crime scene does not guarantee you will be convicted of that crime.
I have no problem with DNA being used to solve crime. I have a problem with it being obtained without a warrant.
As you pointed out DNA has freed many "criminals" from prison. People who had been in prison for years (decades in some cases). This does not enhance the case for showing how the justice system deals with human errors, to me.
DNA has also incarcerated people who were not guilty, who were in prison for years.
Do you have a problem with fingerprinting?
Quote: Since 1989, there have been 891 exonerations based on DNA evidence.
If you could find a list of the number of people who were convicted inappropriately based on DNA evidence than that might help your case.
By Drjones 2013-06-04 18:06:47
Do you have a problem with fingerprinting? I do, but not enough to cause a ruckus about it. DNA samples are several degrees of magnitude worse.
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Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 18:07:00
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted?
99.999% of the time yeah. >_>
No.
In what way are you defining the criteria for your random statistic? Are you going district by district, state by state or averaging them all together? Are you separating out each crime or only going by averaging again? If you are averaging, is this only for violent or are you lumping in white collar, drug, etc into your filter?
I would say 99.999% is a very optimistic statistic.
I think im actually being Pessimistic I think people wrongly convicted happen way less often then that.
Wheres my evidence? I could say the same to you >_>
I posted links on page 1. innocentproject.org has helped hundreds of convicted felons (who have been serving prison sentences for years) get absolved...through DNA testing. That doesn't include many other cases that have been overturned due to other evidence coming to light. Or cases that are still debated where the convicted felon was executed by the state where evidence has come forward recently, or was not allowed to be reviewed before they were executed.
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Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 18:08:17
Do you have a problem with fingerprinting? I do, but not enough to cause a ruckus about it. DNA samples are several degrees of magnitude worse. For me it's two parts.
1. Terrible fear of needles and being forced to offer a blood sample. Admittedly an assumption on my part.
2. It sets a very bad precedent for what the government is allowed to do and we really need to cut back on those. The past decade or so has been pretty awful in that regard. 1. It's a cheek swab
2. Assuming the DNA is restricted to only comparing against a database, then the upheld law is actually less invasive than the long standing fingerprinting practices.
Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 18:09:09
Hundreds of wrongly convicted felons compared to how many actual convicted felons? >_>
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 18:11:27
This is then used to charge you with other crimes. A charge is not equivalent to a conviction.
I didn't say it did. Do you think only guilty people are convicted? It's also long established that we're willing to put up with an imperfect system in order to serve our broader interests. And in fact, the use of DNA as physical evidence has almost certainly freed more wrongly convicted criminals than it has produced false positives.
That aside, it's a hefty bar to pass to go from criminal charges to conviction. Just because your DNA is a partial match to a prior crime scene does not guarantee you will be convicted of that crime.
I have no problem with DNA being used to solve crime. I have a problem with it being obtained without a warrant.
As you pointed out DNA has freed many "criminals" from prison. People who had been in prison for years (decades in some cases). This does not enhance the case for showing how the justice system deals with human errors, to me.
DNA has also incarcerated people who were not guilty, who were in prison for years.
Do you have a problem with fingerprinting?
Quote: Since 1989, there have been 891 exonerations based on DNA evidence.
If you could find a list of the number of people who were convicted inappropriately based on DNA evidence than that might help your case.
I do have a problem with fingerprinting, which I've already stated. How many cases would satisfy you for this to not be OK in your books?
Again, I am not disputing DNA as a method for conviction or over-turning convictions. I'm stating a requirement for a warrant to be involved.
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Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 18:12:29
Enough that the comparison would be statistically significant for one.
If you have a problem with fingerprinting without a warrant then there's little argument that I can make that will do anything to convince you. Which is fine, you're entitled hold that position.
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 18:17:01
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »Hundreds of wrongly convicted felons compared to how many actual convicted felons? >_>
Again, which felony are you referring to? Because it is important in how you are viewing the information. Are we talking about how many first degree murders during that time frame? Or rapes? If we are going all felonies versus incarcerated people who have been exonerated (versus those who may be innocent but who haven't been exonerated) then that is skewing your results.
Or, asked in another way. How many innocent people are you willing to incarcerate to catch one "bad guy"? (yes, that is totally an appeal to the hearts, emotionally loaded question)
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Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 18:21:21
Enough that the comparison would be statistically significant for one.
If you have a problem with fingerprinting without a warrant then there's little argument that I can make that will do anything to convince you. Which is fine, you're entitled hold that position.
The first DNA mix-up was in 1999, iirc, in the UK. Since then there have been more than I'm comfortable with throughout the world. But that is me.
This is not a issue that even lawyers or judges all agree on. I mean Scalia sided with Sotomayer and Ginsburg, while his fellow conservatives disagreed with him.
Carbuncle.Lynxblade
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By Carbuncle.Lynxblade 2013-06-04 18:24:04
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »Hundreds of wrongly convicted felons compared to how many actual convicted felons? >_>
Again, which felony are you referring to? Because it is important in how you are viewing the information. Are we talking about how many first degree murders during that time frame? Or rapes? If we are going all felonies versus incarcerated people who have been exonerated (versus those who may be innocent but who haven't been exonerated) then that is skewing your results.
Or, asked in another way. How many innocent people are you willing to incarcerate to catch one "bad guy"? (yes, that is totally an appeal to the hearts, emotionally loaded question)
Im referring to ALL felonies in general. people can be wrongly convicted of ALL felonies last time I checked
Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 18:51:26
Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »Carbuncle.Lynxblade said: »Hundreds of wrongly convicted felons compared to how many actual convicted felons? >_>
Again, which felony are you referring to? Because it is important in how you are viewing the information. Are we talking about how many first degree murders during that time frame? Or rapes? If we are going all felonies versus incarcerated people who have been exonerated (versus those who may be innocent but who haven't been exonerated) then that is skewing your results.
Or, asked in another way. How many innocent people are you willing to incarcerate to catch one "bad guy"? (yes, that is totally an appeal to the hearts, emotionally loaded question)
Im referring to ALL felonies in general. people can be wrongly convicted of ALL felonies last time I checked
That's not how it works. You didn't indicate a time scale, or how we are we comparing these lets say 200 felonies to the 10,000 felonies that have been committed during that time period (as yet unspecified).
Most people (lawyers, organizations) who are trying to exonerate incarcerated individuals are looking towards freeing those who are either a) in danger of being executed by the state or b) serving incredibly long sentences (not always, but most of the time). There's also this minor issue of many people plea bargaining rather than going through a trial. In 2001 94% of all cases have been settled by plea bargain rather than trial.
So, if I was setting up the test (in order to find a not so random statistic)I would only look at those who went through a trial who were found guilty versus those who were exonerated using the method (went through a trial and were found guilty). This would be putting everything on an even footing and finding an accurate estimate. I would also compare like felonies to like (1st degree murder to 1st degree murder) (also, not all over turned convictions went to trial, some people plead guilty but were exonerated later).
I think it would be very interesting. You would (probably) find that felony drug convictions have a very low exoneration rate (would also be interesting on adjusting for reduced sentences). 1st degree murders and rapes, would be very interesting to see those statistics. I'm sure someone has already done a paper on it, or some variation.
Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-06-04 18:57:18
Do you have a problem with fingerprinting? I do, but not enough to cause a ruckus about it. DNA samples are several degrees of magnitude worse. I'm not seeing why, though. I was hoping that the dissenting opinion would try to make this distinction, but it near completely avoided it. (Scalia's an *** but he's an incredibly entertaining writer. Recommended reading!)
So what makes them worse, specifically?
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Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 19:04:26
Enough that the comparison would be statistically significant for one.
If you have a problem with fingerprinting without a warrant then there's little argument that I can make that will do anything to convince you. Which is fine, you're entitled hold that position.
The first DNA mix-up was in 1999, iirc, in the UK. Since then there have been more than I'm comfortable with throughout the world. But that is me.
This is not a issue that even lawyers or judges all agree on. I mean Scalia sided with Sotomayer and Ginsburg, while his fellow conservatives disagreed with him.
Ratios matter. 1/10 is significant, 1/100000000 not so much
Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-06-04 19:07:48
Actually most people who are guilty do a plea bargin, not always but such a large percentage that it makes the actual trials a statistical outlier. They do this plea bargin because during discovery their defense counsel sits them down and tells them there is a nearly guaranteed chance the prosecution is going to get a conviction. The defense counsel then recommends that their test defense would be to make a deal with the prosecution to plea guilty, either to lessor charges or to a reduced sentence.
If / When things go to trial that's when the defendant is either adamant that they did not do it or they believe the prosecution doesn't have enough evidence to convict.
The problem with the DNA taking is that their using it to search on past crimes not the one their currently solving. That makes it a fishing expedition and should be subject to probable cause protection.
IE
Police think Person A committed crime B but do not have any evidence indicating it or enough evidence to establish PC. Police then indicate they believe person A committed crime C, even though they know person A didn't do it. Upon taking Person A into custody they nab their DNA and try to use it to charge for crime B. Basically it allows Police to step around probably cause requirements which is one of the layers of protection we have.
Just remember, the people who established the USA were each and everyone of them criminals of the highest sort. They were traitors to their country and their king, rebels and outlaws each. They were considered murders from the British point of view (any soldier not killed on an open declared battlefield by another soldier in a nice formation was considered a murder).
So have perspective before we start charging around with a holier-then-though get-those-bad-guys attitude.
Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 19:09:14
You do a plea bargain because it's in your interest. You don't do a plea bargain if you're innocent. It's actually a felony to plea to a crime you didn't commit because you have to lie under oath and say that you did do the crime.
Again, as I stated earlier, if there is some reason why the DNA is not up to beyond a reasonable doubt standards then the prosecutor needs to find more evidence to bring up the standard.
If it's relevant, it will come up in court.
Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-06-04 19:11:58
I can see both sides of the argument. It sounds like the dissenting side is worried that the DNA taken would be used for genetic profiling, similar to racial profiling.
However, now, whenever a crime is committed, one of the key pieces of evidence collected is DNA samples. Since they already have obtained physical evidence related to a crime, I see no valid reason not to collect it when someone is arrested for another crime. It's not like they will be using your DNA sample collected to attempt to preemptively predict and stop a crime before it takes place, like in The Minority Report ( I know, DNA wasnt the key factor, but you get the point)
Cerberus.Eugene
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By Cerberus.Eugene 2013-06-04 19:13:00
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »I can see both sides of the argument. It sounds like the dissenting side is worried that the DNA taken would be used for genetic profiling, similar to racial profiling.
This was not upheld in the court's decision. It wasn't struck down either. Have to wait for future cases to see if its relevant.
By Drjones 2013-06-04 19:13:27
Do you have a problem with fingerprinting? I do, but not enough to cause a ruckus about it. DNA samples are several degrees of magnitude worse. I'm not seeing why, though. I was hoping that the dissenting opinion would try to make this distinction, but it near completely avoided it. (Scalia's an *** but he's an incredibly entertaining writer. Recommended reading!)
So what makes them worse, specifically? It represents a damn near complete capturing of all my physical data. With all my personal data already freely available on the internet these days, it means a complete and total breakdown of privacy right down to the biological level. After that, nothing's off limits and I very much fear what that paves the way for in terms of our government and our culture.
My fears may or may not be unfounded, but they're there.
Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-06-04 19:15:32
Also, with plea bargains. Once you take a plea bargin, and the judge accepts it, that's it. Your side gets NO appeals, no second chances. If evidence comes up later that clears your name, it is up to the DA or AG to reopen the case.
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From Wired:
Quote: Deciding its biggest genetic privacy case of the term, a fractured Supreme Court said today that the states may take DNA samples from anybody arrested for serious crimes.
Privacy groups and law enforcement officials were closely watching the case because at least 27 states and the federal government have regulations requiring suspects to give a DNA sample upon some type of arrest, regardless of conviction. In all the states with such laws, the DNA records are cataloged in state and federal crime-fighting databases.
In a 5-4 decision, (.pdf) the justices reversed a 2012 ruling from Maryland’s top court, which had said that it was a breach of the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure to take, without warrants, DNA samples from suspects who have been arrested for crimes ranging from attempted burglary to murder. In the end, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that swabbing the inside of a suspect’s cheek to acquire a DNA sample was “an advanced technique superior” to fingerprinting, mugshots and even tattoo matching.
Quote: A DNA profile is useful to the police because it gives them a form of identification to search the records already in their valid possession. In this respect the use of DNA for identification is no different than matching an arrestee’s face to a wanted poster of a previously unidentified suspect; or matching tattoos to known gang symbols to reveal a criminal affiliation; or matching the arrestee’s fingerprints to those recovered from a crime scene. DNA is another metric of identification used to connect the arrestee with his or her public persona, as reflected in records of his or her actions that are available to the police.
Kennedy added that, not “to insist on fingerprints as the norm would make little sense to either the forensic expert or the layperson.” The majority also said that DNA collection “may have the salutary effect of freeing a person wrongfully imprisoned for the same offense.”
Justice Antonin Scalia, writing in dissent, said taking the DNA without a warrant was a clear Fourth Amendment violation. He suggested that the United States’ founding fathers would not be so willing “to open their mouths for royal inspection.”
DNA testing in the United States was first used to convict a suspected Florida rapist in 1987, and has been a routine tool to solve old or so-called cold cases. It has also exonerated convicts, even those on death row.
At issue before the justices was a Maryland Court of Appeals ruling that arrestees have a “weighty and reasonable expectation of privacy against warrantless, suspicionless searches” and that expectation was not outweighed by the state’s “purported interest in assuring proper identification” of a suspect.
The case involved Alonzo King, who was arrested in 2009 on assault charges. A DNA sample he provided linked him to an unsolved 2003 rape case, and he was later convicted of the sex crime. But the Maryland Court of Appeals reversed, saying his Fourth Amendment rights were breached.
Maryland prosecutors had argued that mouth swabs were no more intrusive than fingerprinting. Maryland’s high court said that it “could not turn a blind eye” to what it called a “vast genetic treasure map” that exists in the DNA samples retained by the state.
The Maryland court was noting that DNA sampling is much different from compulsory fingerprinting. A fingerprint, for example, reveals nothing more than a person’s identity. But much more can be learned from a DNA sample, which codes a person’s family ties, some health risks and, according to some, can predict a propensity for violence.
In dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote that the cheek swabbing was an unconstitutional, warrantless search of a suspect because it goes beyond identifying the suspect and moves into crime-solving territory.
“If identifying someone means finding out what unsolved crimes he has committed, then identification is indistinguishable from the ordinary law enforcement aims that have never been thought to justify a suspicionless search. Searching every lawfully stopped car, for example, might turn up information about unsolved crimes the driver had committed, but no one would say that such a search was aimed at ‘identifying’ him, and no court would hold such a search lawful,” Scalia wrote.
Scalia also mocked the majority’s rationale because the suspect’s DNA in the case was not processed for about four months after his arrest.
Quote: Today’s judgment will, to be sure, have the beneficial effect of solving more crimes; then again, so would the taking of DNA samples from anyone who flies on an airplane (surely the Transportation Security Administration needs to know the ‘identity’ of the flying public), applies for a driver’s license, or attends a public school. Perhaps the construction of such a genetic panopticon is wise. But I doubt that the proud men who wrote the charter of our liberties would have been so eager to open their mouths for royal inspection.
The issue before the justices did not contest the long-held practice of taking DNA samples from convicts. The courts have already upheld DNA sampling of convicted felons, based on the theory that those who are convicted of crimes have fewer privacy rights.
Today’s outcome was of no surprise, however. Chief Justice John Roberts in July stayed the Maryland decision. In the process, he said there was a “fair prospect”(.pdf) the Supreme Court would reverse the decision.
I think serious crimes are defined by the FBI as part I crimes, but I'm not completely sure.
I agree with Justice Scalia in this decision even though I've disagreed with many of his past decisions regarding defendants and DNA, copyright,, and others.
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