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[Dev] Delve Updates, Holding Times & Bosses
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2013-05-07 15:44:41
| 03-15-2013 06:15 PM |
| | Long Holding Times for Delve NMs
Hello, Iwagami here.
First off, thanks so much for all of the comments. I've read through them all.
In addition to the feedback from those who have participated in Delve and those that have not, hearing feedback before you tried it out and then once again after having tried it out has contributed a lot to our discussion. This decision was made after personally interpreting all of the comments received, so even if it is not fully in accordance with your wishes, I'd appreciate it if you could understand our reasoning.
Before the result of our discussion, I'd like to let you know about one bug.
We've determined a bug where Mastop's magic and abilities are affecting players outside of the fighting alliance, and we will be fixing this immediately. We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.
Discussion result
Now then, I would like to inform you all of the result from our adjustment plan discussion.
After sharing what I wanted to do for the adjustment, there were a lot more comments agreeing with the feedback posted, and also considering that these battles would increase moving forward in order to procure Yggzi Beads, we will be making adjustments so that these monsters do not go into hyper-mode, but will disappear after 20 minutes.
The reason we predict an increase in battles for Yggzi Beads
The two reasons why we foresee an increase in battles for Yggzi Beads are:
Due to the fact that the drop rate of Yggzi Beads are not that high, it will be necessary to fight these NMs multiple times in order to obtain them. Design-wise we thought this would also give new comers to the Delve content an opportunity to participate. While in actuality there may be some who say "don’t come do Delve unless you have Delve equipment," we’d appreciate if you would keep in mind that we designed this system to give these players an opportunity. With that said, making a 100% drop rate for Yggzi Beads or increasing the drop rate would make it difficult for newcomers, so currently we do not want to do this. We'd really be grateful if those of you who are experienced could invite these newcomers to take on this content when you have the ability to do so. Also, the triggers for Delve can be found in reives and as drops from monsters in the zone at a decent rate, so even if you are inexperienced, definitely try to give it a shot and gather members who aren’t worried about losing.
Regarding feedback to keep as it is now
There's also been comments mentioning to keep it as it is now and to wait until the monsters can be defeated in 15 minutes, but due to the below reasons I cannot agree with this.
The battles will become easier as more information is circulated
It's easy to re-challenge
It's easy to check whether you are lacking preparation
We would like to eliminate the congestion between now and when you can all defeat them in 15 minutes.
Regarding feedback to increase the "???" points
While I am repeating what I said previously, the below reasons are why we will not be increasing the number of "???" points at the current time.
We would like to avoid lag issues from having multiple points positioned nearby.
Considering future content, we don't want to use up too much in areas that are further away.
There will not be any cost effectiveness as pros and cons will arise from having them further away.
Also, while it's possible to spawn any NM from a single spot, we actually looked into doing this before implementation; however, problems arose with claiming trigger points and we also wanted players to adventure, so we cut this idea. We always have to consider the trade off even though we want to relieve congestion, and though it might sometimes be difficult for the development side and the player side to match up, we'd really appreciate your understand with this as we move forward.
It may appear that I've only extracted the portions of feedback that were suited to what I was thinking, but most of you are in agreement and I apologize that this system became something different than we had imagined initially. With that said, we have decided to adopt a time limit for Delve monsters fought in the field.
I've also made an announcement about additional adjustments that will be made to delve below.
Thank you very much. | |
| 03-15-2013 06:15 PM |
| | Adjustments to the conditions for unlocking the boss room in Delve
Hello, Iwagami here.
We will be performing an adjustment on the conditions to unlock the boss room in Delve. This is something that has already been finalized, so I would like to let you know what we will be adjusting and our reasoning.
Adjustment
Pre-adjustment: The boss room will unlock by either defeating all of the NMs or after a set amount of time has elapsed.
Post-adjustment: The boss room will unlock after only defeating all of the NMs.
Reason 1
The first reason is that we want to bring the pace of this content in line with what we had originally envisioned -- adventurers would defeat all of the NMs one by one and then take on the boss, as opposed to waiting for the time to elapse until the room opens up and then fighting the boss. If it were content where you would only take on a boss, then we feel it would be more enjoyable without the wait time to make a battlefield where there is only a boss.
With that said, the NMs that appear inside Delve each have their own special traits. The concept of Delve is to think of a party setup that will make it easier to fight multiple NMs and the boss, and there is a good margin for strategy from person to person depending on how you would like to fight and what NMs you chose to avoid and defeat. This is also why we have the element of having at least three consecutive battles inside even if you use the maximum amount of Yggzi Beads.
Reason 2
The second reason is that it's difficult to convey the method in which to take on a fracture with the objective of defeating the boss. Currently the boss room will open after a set amount of time has passed or if all of the NMs have been defeated. Unlocking the boss room after a set amount of time is similar to having the field NMs go into hyper mode, and this is causing the battle to become stagnant as you wait. Due to this, you are left with only a minimal amount of time to defeat the boss. We feel that having it so the boss would spawn after a set amount of time was making it difficult to convey the advantages of quickly eliminating the NMs along the way.
Due to the above two reasons we will be making adjustments so that the boss room is unlocked only after defeating all of the NMs.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the first adventurers defeat the boss. Thank you very much. | |
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 Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-05-07 15:45:25
Why not post both in a single new Delve thread? I mean, it's the same topic.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 659
By Sylph.Systematicchaos 2013-05-07 16:57:23
Bleh.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 694
By Sylph.Decimus 2013-05-07 17:14:30
So they're capping fight times and keeping terrible drop rates so we'll be encouraged to bring worse players to fights that they already couldn't complete with no time limit?
 Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2013-05-07 17:17:12
Quote: We'd really be grateful if those of you who are experienced could invite these newcomers to take on this content when you have the ability to do so.
HA
Ragnarok.Sekundes
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4210
By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-05-07 17:23:32
So they're capping fight times and keeping terrible drop rates so we'll be encouraged to bring worse players to fights that they already couldn't complete with no time limit? They really don't get it do they? Not that anyone was really going to invite too many new players anyway.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-05-07 17:23:34
Delve charity run {Do you need it?} Gimps only!
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4415
By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2013-05-07 17:31:25
Quote: We'd really be grateful if those of you who are experienced could invite these newcomers to take on this content when you have the ability to do so. HA 11/10, would get trolled again.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 107
By Lakshmi.Splinters 2013-05-07 17:36:42
Ughh, horrible japanese to english translation hurts my head. Someone please re-translate, I have no clue what the *** this dev is saying.
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Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-05-07 17:38:18
It wasn't like LSs charging for spots in KI fights wasn't an eventuality anyway. This just means even more clients for when that time comes.
By Lye 2013-05-07 17:40:21
Lakshmi.Splinters said: »Ughh, horrible japanese to english translation hurts my head.
THIS!!!!
Oftentimes the "reasoning" they explain leaves me looking like that Jackie Chan meme.
1) Because it's ludicrous
2) Because I have to reread it to understand what it says.
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Shiva.Gib
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1264
By Shiva.Gib 2013-05-07 17:55:59
how about don't make them rage and get a 90% DT reduction after 15 mins?
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-05-07 18:03:17
hahaha
see you in 2014, guys
Bismarck.Helel
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1335
By Bismarck.Helel 2013-05-07 18:28:34
Quote: With that said, making a 100% drop rate for Yggzi Beads or increasing the drop rate would make it difficult for newcomers
Taken out of context, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Taken in context, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Huh? I'd love to hear exactly how they expect us to fight these NMs in anything other than LS. They're obviously not going to be very PUG friendly with the rage adjustments.
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2013-05-07 18:31:38
Why not post both in a single new Delve thread? I mean, it's the same topic. Done, this will be the main topic.
By Enuyasha 2013-05-07 18:32:29
Quote: With that said, making a 100% drop rate for Yggzi Beads or increasing the drop rate would make it difficult for newcomers
Taken out of context, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Taken in context, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Huh? I'd love to hear exactly how they expect us to fight these NMs in anything other than LS. They're obviously not going to be very PUG friendly with the rage adjustments. If everyone gets what they want noone will go back for new people :<
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-05-07 18:33:23
Quote: With that said, making a 100% drop rate for Yggzi Beads or increasing the drop rate would make it difficult for newcomers
Taken out of context, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Taken in context, this makes absolutely no sense to me. Huh? I'd love to hear exactly how they expect us to fight these NMs in anything other than LS. They're obviously not going to be very PUG friendly with the rage adjustments. They're under the impression that geared groups who are farming these NMs for beads will altruistically help noobs by inviting them for clears.
It's funny. Well, not ha-ha funny, but still funny.
 Sylph.Jkun
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 175
By Sylph.Jkun 2013-05-07 18:34:41
Reposted from the second thread (wut @ 2 threads)
Quote: Didn't they reduce the rage limit/create 20 min Field NMs to also deal with congestion?
If you have to kill Field NMs to get to the boss, isn't that the complete opposite of dealing with congestion? Everyone will be standing around waiting to pop 20 min NMs and having to fight over ???s, or end up fighting Field NMs in sequential order to get more points, since decent plasm farming within the fracture might not be possible anymore.
Urgh. I enjoyed this delicious week-old apple, but now it's gone rotton.
By Therin 2013-05-07 18:36:59
Lakshmi.Splinters said: »Ughh, horrible japanese to english translation hurts my head.
THIS!!!!
Oftentimes the "reasoning" they explain leaves me looking like that Jackie Chan meme.
1) Because it's ludicrous
2) Because I have to reread it to understand what it says.
I thought this post was really clear...
[+]
VIP
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2013-05-07 18:40:15
I just got off work when I created the topics, I wasn't really thinking when I did it, so I ended up making more work for myself than necessary.
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Sylph.Jkun
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 175
By Sylph.Jkun 2013-05-07 18:44:07
I just got off work when I created the topics, I wasn't really thinking when I did it, so I ended up making more work for myself than necessary.
npnp, thanks for your hard work. I think the main problem lies in weird translation and just weird update notes in general.
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 38
By Cerberus.Altsmithra 2013-05-07 18:45:04
So they ***on our R/E/M then expect us to bring new ppl to events. So they can get a better weapon, than the one we spent months if not yrs on....
I just dont know what to say other than...
Hahahahahahahahahahhahaa..................................
Screw it im done later folks been a fun 9yrs.......
VIP
Server: Siren
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Posts: 14552
By Siren.Kalilla 2013-05-07 18:45:06
I believe Slycer also had problems with the translation, he replaced his with the official.
It might just be Iwagami :x
Bismarck.Hsieh
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 709
By Bismarck.Hsieh 2013-05-07 18:47:49
So...are they going to make this easier if they don't want to see x.x hours on one fight?
Ragnarok.Eriina
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 294
By Ragnarok.Eriina 2013-05-07 18:55:20
So with 20min rage I saw lots of players employing various strategies to clear the T4-5 NMs. In pick up groups I saw:
-PLDs actually tanking and holding the boss in position for long periods of time.
-I saw DDs /THF building TP on local mobs to blast 100% acc WS.
-I saw skill chains being coordinated.
-I saw magic bursts(!).
-I even saw some mages talking about what compass position to stand (assuming some kinda geo factor).
-I saw a RDM casting debuffs.
Now, a lot of these tactics are non-optimal and arguably wastes of time compared to zerging. But, for the first time in years fighting reminded me of the old ffxi days against sky gods and ground kings. I didn't care if there was a "better" strategy because it was fun to just jump in and fight it out.
This was possible because there were TWO viable methods to best these NMs:
1) Have baddass gearz and Zerg it down in less than 20 mins.
2) Just don't give up
This update (20min depop) deletes option (2). It deletes the leeway for various strategy (ranging from efficient to wildly inefficient). It deletes the leniency on current gear and job selection. It deletes the leeway to let friends or newer players in because pt spot opportunity cost is higher.
Welcome back to ffxi-6brd-6cor-outside-ally-mule-rotation-mash-WS-macro-zerg-or-gtfo.
Just finished my Ryunohige99 and I can't WAIT to be told ((thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.))
By Avitori 2013-05-07 19:03:14
So with 20min rage I saw lots of players employing various strategies to clear the T4-5 NMs. In pick up groups I saw:
-PLDs actually tanking and holding the boss in position for long periods of time.
-I saw DDs /THF building TP on local mobs to blast 100% acc WS.
-I saw skill chains being coordinated.
-I saw magic bursts(!).
-I even saw some mages talking about what compass position to stand (assuming some kinda geo factor).
-I saw a RDM casting debuffs.
Now, a lot of these tactics are non-optimal and arguably wastes of time compared to zerging. But, for the first time in years fighting reminded me of the old ffxi days against sky gods and ground kings. I didn't care if there was a "better" strategy because it was fun to just jump in and fight it out.
This was possible because there were TWO viable methods to best these NMs:
1) Have baddass gearz and Zerg it down in less than 20 mins.
2) Just don't give up
This update (20min depop) deletes option (2). It deletes the leeway for various strategy (ranging from efficient to wildly inefficient). It deletes the leniency on current gear and job selection. It deletes the leeway to let friends or newer players in because pt spot opportunity cost is higher.
Welcome back to ffxi-6brd-6cor-outside-ally-mule-rotation-mash-WS-macro-zerg-or-gtfo.
Just finished my Rynohige99 and I can't WAIT to be told ((thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.))
This post makes me really sad and I was really excited to finish up my PLD to do these. So tired of the zerg fest, I feel you there.
[+]
Sylph.Jkun
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 175
By Sylph.Jkun 2013-05-07 19:05:29
This post makes me really sad and I was really excited to finish up my PLD to do these. So tired of the zerg fest, I feel you there.
My friends and LS mates felt the same, and to be honest, I loved seeing PLD (and also RDM, especially on Ceizak V!) up and active again, now it's apparently just Voidwatch with gimmicks.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1009
By Sylph.Mirvana 2013-05-07 19:07:24
"We want people to have new gear to do these NMs"
"Please don't exclude people without new gears"
Having their cake and eating it too :(
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Server: Siren
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-05-07 19:08:14
So tired of the zerg fests 
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2013-05-07 19:39:27
Rage timers (or depop timers) needn't imply zergfests, so long as the tank jobs are sufficiently well designed and damage output (as well as other debilitating factors) of enemies are high enough such that dedicated tanks and multiple good healers are required.
It then becomes a question of balancing offense with defense, and can add great depth/skill to a fight.
I haven't seen one of these though, just talking theoretically.
[+]
| 03-15-2013 06:15 PM |
| | Long Holding Times for Delve NMs
Hello, Iwagami here.
First off, thanks so much for all of the comments. I've read through them all.
In addition to the feedback from those who have participated in Delve and those that have not, hearing feedback before you tried it out and then once again after having tried it out has contributed a lot to our discussion. This decision was made after personally interpreting all of the comments received, so even if it is not fully in accordance with your wishes, I'd appreciate it if you could understand our reasoning.
Before the result of our discussion, I'd like to let you know about one bug.
We've determined a bug where Mastop's magic and abilities are affecting players outside of the fighting alliance, and we will be fixing this immediately. We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.
Discussion result
Now then, I would like to inform you all of the result from our adjustment plan discussion.
After sharing what I wanted to do for the adjustment, there were a lot more comments agreeing with the feedback posted, and also considering that these battles would increase moving forward in order to procure Yggzi Beads, we will be making adjustments so that these monsters do not go into hyper-mode, but will disappear after 20 minutes.
The reason we predict an increase in battles for Yggzi Beads
The two reasons why we foresee an increase in battles for Yggzi Beads are:
Due to the fact that the drop rate of Yggzi Beads are not that high, it will be necessary to fight these NMs multiple times in order to obtain them. Design-wise we thought this would also give new comers to the Delve content an opportunity to participate. While in actuality there may be some who say "don’t come do Delve unless you have Delve equipment," we’d appreciate if you would keep in mind that we designed this system to give these players an opportunity. With that said, making a 100% drop rate for Yggzi Beads or increasing the drop rate would make it difficult for newcomers, so currently we do not want to do this. We'd really be grateful if those of you who are experienced could invite these newcomers to take on this content when you have the ability to do so. Also, the triggers for Delve can be found in reives and as drops from monsters in the zone at a decent rate, so even if you are inexperienced, definitely try to give it a shot and gather members who aren’t worried about losing.
Regarding feedback to keep as it is now
There's also been comments mentioning to keep it as it is now and to wait until the monsters can be defeated in 15 minutes, but due to the below reasons I cannot agree with this.
The battles will become easier as more information is circulated
It's easy to re-challenge
It's easy to check whether you are lacking preparation
We would like to eliminate the congestion between now and when you can all defeat them in 15 minutes.
Regarding feedback to increase the "???" points
While I am repeating what I said previously, the below reasons are why we will not be increasing the number of "???" points at the current time.
We would like to avoid lag issues from having multiple points positioned nearby.
Considering future content, we don't want to use up too much in areas that are further away.
There will not be any cost effectiveness as pros and cons will arise from having them further away.
Also, while it's possible to spawn any NM from a single spot, we actually looked into doing this before implementation; however, problems arose with claiming trigger points and we also wanted players to adventure, so we cut this idea. We always have to consider the trade off even though we want to relieve congestion, and though it might sometimes be difficult for the development side and the player side to match up, we'd really appreciate your understand with this as we move forward.
It may appear that I've only extracted the portions of feedback that were suited to what I was thinking, but most of you are in agreement and I apologize that this system became something different than we had imagined initially. With that said, we have decided to adopt a time limit for Delve monsters fought in the field.
I've also made an announcement about additional adjustments that will be made to delve below.
Thank you very much. | |
| 03-15-2013 06:15 PM |
| | Adjustments to the conditions for unlocking the boss room in Delve
Hello, Iwagami here.
We will be performing an adjustment on the conditions to unlock the boss room in Delve. This is something that has already been finalized, so I would like to let you know what we will be adjusting and our reasoning.
Adjustment
Pre-adjustment: The boss room will unlock by either defeating all of the NMs or after a set amount of time has elapsed.
Post-adjustment: The boss room will unlock after only defeating all of the NMs.
Reason 1
The first reason is that we want to bring the pace of this content in line with what we had originally envisioned -- adventurers would defeat all of the NMs one by one and then take on the boss, as opposed to waiting for the time to elapse until the room opens up and then fighting the boss. If it were content where you would only take on a boss, then we feel it would be more enjoyable without the wait time to make a battlefield where there is only a boss.
With that said, the NMs that appear inside Delve each have their own special traits. The concept of Delve is to think of a party setup that will make it easier to fight multiple NMs and the boss, and there is a good margin for strategy from person to person depending on how you would like to fight and what NMs you chose to avoid and defeat. This is also why we have the element of having at least three consecutive battles inside even if you use the maximum amount of Yggzi Beads.
Reason 2
The second reason is that it's difficult to convey the method in which to take on a fracture with the objective of defeating the boss. Currently the boss room will open after a set amount of time has passed or if all of the NMs have been defeated. Unlocking the boss room after a set amount of time is similar to having the field NMs go into hyper mode, and this is causing the battle to become stagnant as you wait. Due to this, you are left with only a minimal amount of time to defeat the boss. We feel that having it so the boss would spawn after a set amount of time was making it difficult to convey the advantages of quickly eliminating the NMs along the way.
Due to the above two reasons we will be making adjustments so that the boss room is unlocked only after defeating all of the NMs.
I'm really looking forward to seeing the first adventurers defeat the boss. Thank you very much. | |
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