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Matsui: "Don't throw away your R/M/E weapons yet"
 Fenrir.Sylow
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-04-30 19:46:09
Too lazy to quote your last two posts, Sylow, but I'll give you that. They make sense enough to me. I feel like Skirmish, though, was a way for them to give people weapons that will allow people without R/M/E 99 to be able to participate in Delve. Not that Skirmish weapons were intended to stick around and they just introduced Delve because "*** it." We don't really need another "R/M/E DDs only please" sort of situation; we create enough of those already, even for things where it's not even necessary.
Except what will actually happen is people will sloppily pound the lower tier NMs into the floor using Aegis PLDs and some random sacrificial DDs as bait and a few SMNs + BLMs and then grind out 30k plasm for a still-super-but-not-the-superest on whatever inconsequential job/weapon combo they feel like doing it on (unless you're a 1h job then you might as well go home)
And now it'll be "Delve only DDs" instead of "RME only DDs"
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 Bahamut.Kiralai
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 132
By Bahamut.Kiralai 2013-04-30 19:54:47
Too lazy to quote your last two posts, Sylow, but I'll give you that. They make sense enough to me. I feel like Skirmish, though, was a way for them to give people weapons that will allow people without R/M/E 99 to be able to participate in Delve. Not that Skirmish weapons were intended to stick around and they just introduced Delve because "*** it." We don't really need another "R/M/E DDs only please" sort of situation; we create enough of those already, even for things where it's not even necessary.
Except what will actually happen is people will sloppily pound the lower tier NMs into the floor using Aegis PLDs and some random sacrificial DDs as bait and a few SMNs + BLMs and then grind out 30k plasm for a still-super-but-not-the-superest on whatever inconsequential job/weapon combo they feel like doing it on (unless you're a 1h job then you might as well go home)
And now it'll be "Delve only DDs" instead of "RME only DDs"
That sounds about right. Just the same old, same old though. Not exactly a new problem. Only this time we can't necessarily solve it with Embrava and PD, but I'll be damned if people don't try. It just doesn't feel like a new issue to me, but I suppose I tend not to have very strong feelings regarding updates themselves.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 231
By Asura.Sabishii 2013-04-30 19:56:11
What really pisses me off isn't just that my almace 90 that I worked hard on getting just got upstaged by AH gear with no WS attached, but my BLU that I use my almace with is going to become useless when weapon damage scales up and up, and spell damage can't keep up with it. Spell damage is determined by blue magic skill (which isn't going up), the base damage of the spells (which hasn't gone up and we haven't gotten any bigger spells), and stats (STR and the like which isn't going up either). No gear exists except a few shitty evoliths to boost the direct attack rating of blue magic spells. That's like most BLUs hate voidwatch, we're stuck setting 4 sets of elemental spells that are useless in terms of damage, and if you've got almace, you can spam CDC while casting the procs needed. But with these new weapons boosting damage for melee so much, BLU can't rely on their physical spells to keep up with the damage of heavier DDs (we are already useless in situations of high evasion, high level NMs). Remember kiting Kirin? BLU had to just sub /THF and spam cannonballs with Chain affinity and sneak attack JUST to be useful in killing the mob.
In summary, BLU is becoming useless when you've got two-handed great weapons that have over 200 damage become widespread, and physical spells don't receive a boost. Not only do BLU lose almace, they lose CDC, since you need almace to use CDC, and who wants to use a 90 almace when you've got a 100+ damage sword that can only spamt the shitty merit WS Requiescat with an attack penalty and MND mod. Who's going to want to do that? What am I going to do with my DEX gear that has no purpose if I get one of these stupid High damage weapons to even COMPETE with other people?
It's 90, it's irrelevant. Your BLU spells don't do near enough damage outside of abyssea regardless. Get 99 if you like BLU that much. BLU isn't competing with a DD job that's equally geared.
Because I missed out on the gravy train of chocobo blinkers and don't 150m+ gil to spend on 1.5k heavy metals and 60 riftcinder to upgrade my almace to lvl 99. I haven't seen a single lvl 99 almace on Asura. Not everyone has a big LS that can shovel gil to them. It cost me a lot of gil JUST to get the briareus helms because I had to buy a merc to farm for the pop sets. And now the R/M/E's are useless to begin with once these new weapons get out, unless they have some plan, but that's getting away from one my points.
BLU is going to be the next RDM, useless in future content because the spell damage can't keep up, and we won't have CDC with the new weapons.
Not everyone has the gil to upgrade a 99 almace with afterglow or without. Stop treating me as subhuman.
Cerberus.Pleebo
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9720
By Cerberus.Pleebo 2013-04-30 19:57:40
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Leviathan.Kaparu
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 949
By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-04-30 19:57:45
At least then it'll be warranted
"RME only!" shouts in the context of DRK, DRG, WAR, RNG, and probably some other job(s) that I'm forgetting were always absurd to me
I have a Redemption, Rhongomiant, Gandiva, and Bravura- can I join?!
Valefor.Omnys
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2013-04-30 20:06:28
At least then it'll be warranted
"RME only!" shouts in the context of DRK, DRG, WAR, RNG, and probably some other job(s) that I'm forgetting were always absurd to me
I have a Redemption, Rhongomiant, Gandiva, and Bravura- can I join?!
It's funny because VW shouts, now, will take just about anything. I've seen a few using weakeners for tier clears just to get people to come.
Fenrir.Sylow
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-04-30 20:09:11
Most of the "RME only" shouts fell into one of three categories although all of them were misguided in different ways
1) "RME only" was being used as a buzz-filter meaning "I'm being picky about who I allow to be on the front line" - these people would take any competitive DD (although it just so happens that most competitive DDS have access to some form of RME that is the best option)
2) "I'm sort of new to this event so this is what I think I'm supposed to be shouting for!" - on Fenrir right now we have some people shouting for RME only VW when they were just getting their first clears last month - I've seen this particular person shout for an Empyrean DRG (Although I'm pretty sure 99 Rhongo beats 99 Gungnir!)
I mean really
3) Extremely unintelligent players that equate having access to a LV85 empyrean to being a competitive DD - because this is the only world they know
These are the players who would probably look at you like a deer in headlights if you told them they could TP and WS in different gear sets
So in truth - the "RME only" problem was mostly limited to the bottom of the barrel because the experienced players on any given server are able to make educated decisions about the capability of people in their groups
The fact that there really were no proximate alternatives for most jobs until recently and that R(M)E were being mass-produced just exacerbated the problem
Valefor.Omnys
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2013-04-30 20:12:20
I can't count the number of times I got to a Qilin and the event organizer said "Okay, who can pop Qilin", even while he was being picky.
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By Enuyasha 2013-04-30 20:49:26
I can't count the number of times I got to a Qilin and the event organizer said "Okay, who can pop Qilin", even while he was being picky. Yea, and the ones that insist on using weakeners on T1's...in cities.Yea.
Bahamut.Kiralai
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 132
By Bahamut.Kiralai 2013-04-30 20:49:34
I can't count the number of times I got to a Qilin and the event organizer said "Okay, who can pop Qilin", even while he was being picky.
Wow. I suppose I'll have to count my blessings that I've never experienced that before.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-04-30 20:51:59
A different kind of gear grind
Yeah, but the specific quote we're referring to was "I don't want a gear treadmill," not "I don't want a different kind of gear treadmill." So yes, there was somebody making an argument that FFXI was not a gear grind before, but that it's becoming this way.
gear grind != gear treadmill
Care to explain the difference? Not being a smart-***; I really wanna know.
Edit: Unless you mean that gear grind = the time sink of obtaining gear, and gear treadmill = the need to constantly keep obtaining the better and better gear that outperforms what you're currently wearing. So if that's what you mean, FFXI was already both of those things anyway. They generally do it so that a lot of it overlaps with old gear, so it's not an absolute overhaul of every single piece you own. And it's mostly that way in this update too. All of the weapons got outdone in one fell swoop, yes, and they stick out like a sore thumb, but for all the other equipment slots, it's pretty standard fare (meaning, there's no way to create the optimal gear sets without using a combination of both new and old gear).
the defining characteristic of a treadmill is that you don't actually go anywhere
plz 2 b seeing my posts
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Bahamut.Kiralai
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 132
By Bahamut.Kiralai 2013-04-30 21:09:14
A different kind of gear grind
Yeah, but the specific quote we're referring to was "I don't want a gear treadmill," not "I don't want a different kind of gear treadmill." So yes, there was somebody making an argument that FFXI was not a gear grind before, but that it's becoming this way.
gear grind != gear treadmill
Care to explain the difference? Not being a smart-***; I really wanna know.
Edit: Unless you mean that gear grind = the time sink of obtaining gear, and gear treadmill = the need to constantly keep obtaining the better and better gear that outperforms what you're currently wearing. So if that's what you mean, FFXI was already both of those things anyway. They generally do it so that a lot of it overlaps with old gear, so it's not an absolute overhaul of every single piece you own. And it's mostly that way in this update too. All of the weapons got outdone in one fell swoop, yes, and they stick out like a sore thumb, but for all the other equipment slots, it's pretty standard fare (meaning, there's no way to create the optimal gear sets without using a combination of both new and old gear).
the defining characteristic of a treadmill is that you don't actually go anywhere
plz 2 b seeing my posts
That particular definition sounds more like the old model than the new one though. Clearing content for side-grades sounds a whole lot more like going nowhere/going in circles. The new content, if it's a problem, is a problem because it looks like it's going to become "you're forced to go to point A, then to point B, then to point C, faster than you'd like."
In your post, the "meaningful difference" IS that you are capable of moving on to the next tier, something you couldn't do in the gear you were wearing before. Because the goal is progression. If the goal is to progress, then the fact that it allows you to progress makes it meaningful. It depends on what you value, I suppose. It seems like it could be argued that anything you do in an MMO is the equivalent of spinning your tires in mud, depending on what you value and the angle you put to it.
Ragnarok.Alahra
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 296
By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-04-30 21:26:31
A different kind of gear grind
Yeah, but the specific quote we're referring to was "I don't want a gear treadmill," not "I don't want a different kind of gear treadmill." So yes, there was somebody making an argument that FFXI was not a gear grind before, but that it's becoming this way.
gear grind != gear treadmill
Care to explain the difference? Not being a smart-***; I really wanna know.
Edit: Unless you mean that gear grind = the time sink of obtaining gear, and gear treadmill = the need to constantly keep obtaining the better and better gear that outperforms what you're currently wearing. So if that's what you mean, FFXI was already both of those things anyway. They generally do it so that a lot of it overlaps with old gear, so it's not an absolute overhaul of every single piece you own. And it's mostly that way in this update too. All of the weapons got outdone in one fell swoop, yes, and they stick out like a sore thumb, but for all the other equipment slots, it's pretty standard fare (meaning, there's no way to create the optimal gear sets without using a combination of both new and old gear).
the defining characteristic of a treadmill is that you don't actually go anywhere
plz 2 b seeing my posts
That particular definition sounds more like the old model than the new one though. Clearing content for side-grades sounds a whole lot more like going nowhere/going in circles. The new content, if it's a problem, is a problem because it looks like it's going to become "you're forced to go to point A, then to point B, then to point C, faster than you'd like."
I don't know, I never felt like I was going in circles. But everyone's going to have a different sense of it, I suppose. I definitely agree that it's about being put onto a narrow path of A > B > C, though, whereas previously we had options A through E that were all on the same rough level, and we could tackle them in the order that we saw fit (or didn't) to prioritize different sets for different situations, etc.
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Bahamut.Kiralai
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 132
By Bahamut.Kiralai 2013-04-30 21:34:25
But everyone's going to have a different sense of it, I suppose.
Yeah, and there it is exactly. The very root of the reason that there are ever disagreements about anything. It all depends on what you value, and how you interpret it.
By fractalvoid 2013-04-30 21:36:44
already see lacryma sickle (and a +1) on ragnarok.
let the chaos ensue... or something
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-04-30 21:39:27
A different kind of gear grind
Yeah, but the specific quote we're referring to was "I don't want a gear treadmill," not "I don't want a different kind of gear treadmill." So yes, there was somebody making an argument that FFXI was not a gear grind before, but that it's becoming this way.
gear grind != gear treadmill
Care to explain the difference? Not being a smart-***; I really wanna know.
Edit: Unless you mean that gear grind = the time sink of obtaining gear, and gear treadmill = the need to constantly keep obtaining the better and better gear that outperforms what you're currently wearing. So if that's what you mean, FFXI was already both of those things anyway. They generally do it so that a lot of it overlaps with old gear, so it's not an absolute overhaul of every single piece you own. And it's mostly that way in this update too. All of the weapons got outdone in one fell swoop, yes, and they stick out like a sore thumb, but for all the other equipment slots, it's pretty standard fare (meaning, there's no way to create the optimal gear sets without using a combination of both new and old gear).
the defining characteristic of a treadmill is that you don't actually go anywhere
plz 2 b seeing my posts
That particular definition sounds more like the old model than the new one though. Clearing content for side-grades sounds a whole lot more like going nowhere/going in circles. The new content, if it's a problem, is a problem because it looks like it's going to become "you're forced to go to point A, then to point B, then to point C, faster than you'd like."
In your post, the "meaningful difference" IS that you are capable of moving on to the next tier, something you couldn't do in the gear you were wearing before. Because the goal is progression. If the goal is to progress, then the fact that it allows you to progress makes it meaningful. It depends on what you value, I suppose. It seems like it could be argued that anything you do in an MMO is the equivalent of spinning your tires in mud, depending on what you value and the angle you put to it.
incremental power creep meant the NMs never really got dramatically stronger, thus the progress you had already made meant something, and you'd be rewarded for getting new gear by killing old stuff that was still relevant (because it wasn't trivial) even more efficiently
this culminated in RMEs, which involved a time commitment and multi-month dedication that frankly has no place in a game with tier-based gear resets
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Ragnarok.Alahra
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 296
By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-04-30 21:48:13
But everyone's going to have a different sense of it, I suppose.
Yeah, and there it is exactly. The very root of the reason that there are ever disagreements about anything. It all depends on what you value, and how you interpret it.
It probably also depends somewhat on main job, too. As NIN, I have several pieces of gear that SE's going to have to try really hard to replace, and I liked that. There was this idea that I could be "done" for awhile, until new content came out, and work on other jobs, help LS mates and friends, etc.
Now it sorta feels like, if we're getting regular tier upgrades, there won't be as much time to be "done." But I dunno.
Bahamut.Kiralai
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 132
By Bahamut.Kiralai 2013-04-30 21:49:31
incremental power creep meant the NMs never really got dramatically stronger, thus the progress you had already made meant something, and you'd be rewarded for getting new gear by killing old stuff that was still relevant (because it wasn't trivial) even more efficiently
this culminated in RMEs, which involved a time commitment and multi-month dedication that frankly has no place in a game with tier-based gear resets
I agree with that. But once you've gotten all that gear, and hit that limit where you've got nothing left to do but keep trouncing the old stuff, it gets boring. It's all good fun to do it more efficiently for awhile, but I don't know a lot of people who are content to do that forever. The "need" arises for something more difficult, that gives you a reason to desire getting back on the wheel (or the treadmill, I guess?), because the old reward of "becoming as strong as you can be versus the old content" starts to feel stale. You make a good point though.
It probably also depends somewhat on main job, too. As NIN, I have several pieces of gear that SE's going to have to try really hard to replace, and I liked that. There was this idea that I could be "done" for awhile, until new content came out, and work on other jobs, help LS mates and friends, etc.
Now it sorta feels like, if we're getting regular tier upgrades, there won't be as much time to be "done." But I dunno. Yeah, there's a lot of gear that isn't replaced, but the whole weapon thing really weirds people out to the extent that they don't care much about the fact that the other gear slots haven't all been shaken the same way. I suppose it doesn't bother me as much because there's so much situational stuff in this game that it's hard to invalidate it all at once. I don't really feel a strong reaction to the change either way; I'm more or less waiting to see how I feel about it once I've experienced more of it first-hand. It's possible that I'll end up hating it in later in practice as much as people are hating it now in theory. But I've enjoyed the FFXI model of gaming AND the WoW model of gaming simultaneously for years now, so.
Maybe if there was a large enough gap in between content releases, you could still have the chance to feel "finished," but you're right that it probably wouldn't perpetuate as long as it has been.
Ragnarok.Alahra
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 296
By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-04-30 22:00:17
incremental power creep meant the NMs never really got dramatically stronger, thus the progress you had already made meant something, and you'd be rewarded for getting new gear by killing old stuff that was still relevant (because it wasn't trivial) even more efficiently
this culminated in RMEs, which involved a time commitment and multi-month dedication that frankly has no place in a game with tier-based gear resets
I agree with that. But once you've gotten all that gear, and hit that limit where you've got nothing left to do but keep trouncing the old stuff, it gets boring. It's all good fun to do it more efficiently for awhile, but I don't know a lot of people who are content to do that forever. The "need" arises for something more difficult, that gives you a reason to desire getting back on the wheel (or the treadmill, I guess?), because the old reward of "becoming as strong as you can be versus the old content" starts to feel stale. You make a good point though.
Indeed. New content does have to arise, eventually. I think the biggest issue is that this completely throws a wrench in the current progression form. I still had a long way to go before I was near being "done" with NIN, for instance. What gets weird is that the gear I'd be gaining doing VW, Neo-Salvage, etc, is already somewhat questionable relative to the newer stuff we're seeing. A patch or two down the line, it may not be worth that investment at all, and it all comes down to the jump in "tier" being a bit too far, in my opinion.
It's a completely different circumstance for someone who's done with their gear on current content already, though, as the old content isn't anywhere approaching "new" to them, whereas it was for me (or any relatively new player).
I still think they could have gone with a series of smaller jumps and accomplished the same thing without flipping the table.
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Leviathan.Kincard
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1442
By Leviathan.Kincard 2013-04-30 22:04:25
RME only shouts were always kinda absurd, yeah. Half the time my friend with a Maschu was able to out-DPS the WARs with Ukons in his group. I always wondered how the heck that was even possible (He also helped proc). That aside VW was never that hard anyway (aside from a select few that people never ever spammed like Dvergr).
I'm pretty sure the gap between Delve weapons and everything else is a lot larger than the gap between RME and non-RME weapons so it's not like they somehow solved the problem of "hurr elitists".
At the end of the day though, they'll either change this or they won't, so we'll see. If they don't, they might lose some players. If people don't care, I hope you guys enjoy the game and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way at all. *shrugs*
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Ragnarok.Alahra
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 296
By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-04-30 22:04:35
incremental power creep meant the NMs never really got dramatically stronger, thus the progress you had already made meant something, and you'd be rewarded for getting new gear by killing old stuff that was still relevant (because it wasn't trivial) even more efficiently
this culminated in RMEs, which involved a time commitment and multi-month dedication that frankly has no place in a game with tier-based gear resets
I agree with that. But once you've gotten all that gear, and hit that limit where you've got nothing left to do but keep trouncing the old stuff, it gets boring. It's all good fun to do it more efficiently for awhile, but I don't know a lot of people who are content to do that forever. The "need" arises for something more difficult, that gives you a reason to desire getting back on the wheel (or the treadmill, I guess?), because the old reward of "becoming as strong as you can be versus the old content" starts to feel stale. You make a good point though.
It probably also depends somewhat on main job, too. As NIN, I have several pieces of gear that SE's going to have to try really hard to replace, and I liked that. There was this idea that I could be "done" for awhile, until new content came out, and work on other jobs, help LS mates and friends, etc.
Now it sorta feels like, if we're getting regular tier upgrades, there won't be as much time to be "done." But I dunno. Yeah, there's a lot of gear that isn't replaced, but the whole weapon thing really weirds people out to the extent that they don't care much about the fact that the other gear slots haven't all been shaken the same way. I suppose it doesn't bother me as much because there's so much situational stuff in this game that it's hard to invalidate it all at once.
Maybe if there was a large enough gap in between content releases, you could still have the chance to feel "finished," but you're right that it probably wouldn't perpetuate as long as it has been.
I have a feeling the situational stuff is going to be less useful as we move forward, though, if they're sicking to pre-defined item tiers. I'm getting almost no use out of my various sets for NIN in Adoulin so far, because all I'm good for is damage. My TP set's pretty stagnant in Adoulin, as are my WS sets, so I'm only ever going to be upgrading along one line.
That's probably to be expected, since we went from A-E events to A > B > C events, though, I suppose. Since there's a "ladder" now, rather than a "field" with varying destinations, different gear sets may become less and less useful. That's how it feels right now, at any rate, but it may be a NIN-specific thing, too. We've been kind of boned outside Abyssea for awhile as far as I can see.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-04-30 22:09:42
Quote: I agree with that. But once you've gotten all that gear, and hit that limit where you've got nothing left to do but keep trouncing the old stuff, it gets boring.
until the new stuff comes out and the gear you already have lets you hit the ground running, and that new stuff can stay relevant for years just like the old stuff did before it even if you beat it on day one, because (wait for it) incremental power creep
Bahamut.Kiralai
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 132
By Bahamut.Kiralai 2013-04-30 22:24:36
I have a feeling the situational stuff is going to be less useful as we move forward, though, if they're sicking to pre-defined item tiers. I'm getting almost no use out of my various sets for NIN in Adoulin so far, because all I'm good for is damage. My TP set's pretty stagnant in Adoulin, as are my WS sets, so I'm only ever going to be upgrading along one line.
That's probably to be expected, since we went from A-E events to A > B > C events, though, I suppose. Since there's a "ladder" now, rather than a "field" with varying destinations, different gear sets may become less and less useful. That's how it feels right now, at any rate, but it may be a NIN-specific thing, too. We've been kind of boned outside Abyssea for awhile as far as I can see.
Possible, but a lot of people tend to purposefully go out and min-max everything though, beyond just TP and WS sets. Some more basic, some more obscure. Things like BST Reward sets, DRG Wyvern breath sets, Enhancing magic sets, PDT/MDT sets, pre-cast sets, Avatar BP activation sets, Avatar BP completion sets, Stun sets, etc. Depending on your perspective, you might think "who cares about those things?" But a lot of people do, because they play whatever they find fun and they want to play it optimally. If they place value on a job, they want to min-max every aspect of it, and I feel like all of those sorts of sets will always be piece-meal from all over the place content-wise. Basic TP and WS sets are going to get rolled over time and time again though.
I suppose if I end up having a problem with the new model, it will be if there's not enough time in between "leaps." I generally take the downtime in between content releases to work on jobs that aren't my main (with the ultimate goal of getting a couple of them up to par also before the next release), and I enjoy that. But being prompt with content releases isn't exactly SE's MO, so I suppose I don't have much to worry about yet, lol.
Ragnarok.Alahra
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 296
By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-04-30 22:34:48
I have a feeling the situational stuff is going to be less useful as we move forward, though, if they're sicking to pre-defined item tiers. I'm getting almost no use out of my various sets for NIN in Adoulin so far, because all I'm good for is damage. My TP set's pretty stagnant in Adoulin, as are my WS sets, so I'm only ever going to be upgrading along one line.
That's probably to be expected, since we went from A-E events to A > B > C events, though, I suppose. Since there's a "ladder" now, rather than a "field" with varying destinations, different gear sets may become less and less useful. That's how it feels right now, at any rate, but it may be a NIN-specific thing, too. We've been kind of boned outside Abyssea for awhile as far as I can see.
Possible, but a lot of people tend to purposefully go out and min-max everything though, beyond just TP and WS sets. Some more basic, some more obscure. Things like BST Reward sets, DRG Wyvern breath sets, Enhancing magic sets, PDT/MDT sets, pre-cast sets, Avatar BP activation sets, Avatar BP completion sets, Stun sets, etc. Depending on your perspective, you might think "who cares about those things?" But a lot of people do, because they play whatever they find fun and they want to play it optimally. If they place value on a job, they want to min-max every aspect of it, and I feel like all of those sorts of sets will always be piece-meal from all over the place content-wise. Basic TP and WS sets are going to get rolled over time and time again though.
I suppose if I end up having a problem with the new model, it will be if there's not enough time in between "leaps." I generally take the downtime in between content releases to work on jobs that aren't my main (with the ultimate goal of getting a couple of them up to par also before the next release), and I enjoy that. But being prompt with content releases isn't exactly SE's MO, so I suppose I don't have much to worry about yet, lol.
I work that way on NIN as well. I have a set for Utsusemi and a set for Ninjutsu enfeebles, and so on, as well as a set for Evasion and PDT. NIN is fairly narrow in that regard, though--I don't have a lot of JAs to build sets for and so on, the way other jobs do. And my Evasion/PDT sets aren't getting any use because NIN doesn't see any play as a tank these days.
I definitely agree about the time between "leaps" being a potential issue. I'm fairly casual, and the same goes for most folks in my LS, so it's unlikely we'll really be doing this new stuff with more than a job or two each, which is unfortunate, as one of XI's other strengths was the job system. While on the surface it looks a lot like having an "alt" in another game, it ends up being a lot different since you can more easily share gear between jobs and the like.
[+]
Bahamut.Kiralai
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 132
By Bahamut.Kiralai 2013-04-30 22:40:36
Quote: I agree with that. But once you've gotten all that gear, and hit that limit where you've got nothing left to do but keep trouncing the old stuff, it gets boring.
until the new stuff comes out and the gear you already have lets you hit the ground running, and that new stuff can stay relevant for years just like the old stuff did before it even if you beat it on day one, because (wait for it) incremental power creep
I do like that in a way. I mean I've played FFXI for 9 years (with 2-3 breaks of a few months) and I've enjoyed it the way you've described it. But it happens a lot that because you're able to hit the ground running, you clear through the content really quickly, get everything you want, get as strong as you possibly can, and the wait in between that and the next content is so very long. I generally compensate for that by working on other jobs that I don't necessarily care about as much, and it's allowed me to enjoy FFXI for years, but a lot of people just end up quitting/taking breaks. I feel like SE tries to compensate for it by making drop rates ridiculously low too, but that's rather frustrating. I actually do like the incremental power creep that you're describing (though I do like the WoW style progression too; I find ways to enjoy both). Just playing Devil's advocate I suppose. I have met lets of people who feel like they're hitting a wall with the incremental power creep to the point that it's problematic (for them) though.
By Enuyasha 2013-04-30 22:50:35
Incrimental power creep is awesome, but i like having things to do that arent "Do this event every day for two months,then do trials,then","kill this NM for 8 items that you end up having to kill it 20 times,then go kill a more *** mob for 9 items and itll take 60 kills","go kill this NM [and his 3 other cronies] 50 times [which it may take 100 times] for this badass shiney thing,then go do it again,and then again,and then again,and then bring me 1500 shiny things which you wont see for a year,then bring me some random ***i found in a box once.","I need these three obscure items aswell as some expensive items [thank your economically HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE peers] and then, i need 50 old peices of paper and another obscure peice of gear",and finally "As quickly as you can get to floor 100 and hope to god you dont get *** by a random number generator or by a bitchy glowing pole 50 times,all in 30minutes"
For once, i like "go hit walls and vines until you get 100K of some foreign currency then kill a super mob","get a stupidly rare pop statue and clear rooms",and"after you've done A and B, now go do the harder ***like that"
Gives me stuff to do...and lots of stuff to do than the same six event archetypes for 30 days.
By ScaevolaBahamut 2013-04-30 22:50:39
sure, that's all true
this won't change any of that
people get bored in wow all the time, mang
the only thing this changes is that you're under a lot more pressure to get your foot in the door quickly over and over and over again, which may be fine for you but a version of ffxi that is "play as much as you can as hard as you can or don't bother" is kind of insulting to my sense of taste
like i don't realize there are other things i could do for fun that won't punish me if i don't check up on them like the world's most pathological tamagotchi
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-04-30 23:09:08
I like FFXI because I don't feel like if I don't log on every single day I'll be so far behind that I may as well not even play anymore. They're ruining that.
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 27
By Lakshmi.Dragoncloud 2013-04-30 23:15:59
Imagine the butthurt that will follow once you see people shouting for Adoulin Weapons only.
/sh Botulus Rex {Do you need it?} Adoulin Weapon DD BRD COR only!!!
"Still using your R/M/E weapon? Get that under 200 base dmg ***out of here!"
Fenrir.Sylow
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6862
By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-04-30 23:17:31
As I said earlier - the correct answer is 7
FFXI people can handle exactly 7 things going out of date per update cycle
No more
No less
Seven
| 04-26-2013 12:52 PM | | Akihiko Matsui | | Dev Team |  |
| | I'd like to deeply apologize for mentioning "Don’t throw away your relic, mythic, and empyrean weapons" during an interview. Relic, mythic, and empyrean (below R/M/E weapons) take a great deal of time and difficulty to obtain, and this expression was extremely lacking in consideration for all of the players who tried so hard to complete them.
What I wished to convey was that we will be implementing a system to build on R/M/E weapons, so please have them in your possession, and there was no other meaning intended.
In regards to this system, the outline has been finished; however, we have yet to test if what we have planned can be realized and if we can secure the proper amount of manpower to continue it. We are at a point in time right now where it's difficult to explain the details, so please allow us to discuss this another day.
For the Adoulin end-game content aimed at the top players, where they can obtain high level equipment as well, we will gradually make adjustments to difficulty so that once new end-game content is released you'll be able to obtain these items if you put in a bit of effort.
Also, we will similarly be adjusting content in existing areas, though it may take some time and be a limited time event. | |
| 05-09-2013 10:15 AM | | Slycer | | BG Translator |  |
| | Matsui: Follow up on Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and Coin Weapons
Hello, it's Matsui. Thank you for all of your opinions about Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and Coin weapons (hereafter, RMEC). They were very helpful.
After reading all of the varied opinions, we have decided that rather than unlocking the weapon skills specific to each weapon, a reworking of RME weapons would be more effective (for coin weapons, more information will be provided later, but we plan to allow these to unlock the dedicated weapon skills).
I have written and reorganized this in various ways and it has become quite lengthy with examples. After you have gotten a chance to look over it, please let us know if you have any further opinions.
Content Level
We received many questions about the parameters of Adoulin equipment. Because this is an important part in order to be able to understand the reworking of RME so you can provide your opinion, please allow me to repeat the explanation for content level and growth in Seekers of Adoulin.
In Adoulin, the basic design is a repeated play cycle where players become stronger and stronger as they align themselves with equipment obtained from challenging content which, in turn, allows them to take on even more challenging content.
By aligning themselves with this equipment, players will continue to grow even without leveling up.
The content level of Adoulin content is set as follows:
[[Info below is much better formatted in a table on the original post.]]
20: Delve (Boss Monsters) (Current)
17: Wildskeeper Reive (New Additions) (Next Version Update)
14: Delve NMs (Tier 2) (Current)
13: Skirmish (New Additions) (Next Version Update)
11: Delve NMs (Tier 1) (Current)
6-9: Colonization / Lair Reives (New Additions) (Next Version Update)
7: Wildskeeper Reive (Current)
6: Skirmish (Current)
1-5: Colonization/Lair Reives (Current)
The strength of the equipment that can be obtained, rather than the level of the equipment, will be dependent on the content level. The equipment to be added later in Adoulin will of course be equippable at level 99, but the level of the equipment parameters would be even higher to match the content level (for example, similar to what level 110 or 120 equipment might look like).
While the strength of the monsters which appear is determined to match the content level, in order to fill out the hierarchy between content to some extent, we have designed monsters of variable strength. The parameters of the equipment that can be obtained in Adoulin is set by determining the parameters that would be necessary to compete with those monsters.
The level of current and planned content is set to minimize the gaps between content level, but we may also insert additional intermediate content if the jump between levels remains too high.
In some cases, content variations will cause content to cover multiple levels. We also plan to enhance the amount of content available horizontally at individual levels, rather than just vertically over the content level range.
The content in the next version update will be added with this in mind.
Referencing the "next version update" items above, it will be possible to add new colonization and lair reive equipment purchasable for Bayld in the level 6~9 range (which currently includes Skirmish and Wildskeeper Reives). In addition, we will be inserting new content at levels 13 and 17.
Also, one part of smoothing out the content level will be adjusted in a maintenance to be carried out of the end of this week: we will be adding a fixed probability to obtain the items needed to enter Skirmishes (Simulacrum Segments) from Lair and Colonization Reives. (This adjustment is unrelated to the current rules associated with coalition assignments, gathering, and Soul Pyres.)
By making this adjustment, the assumed progression will be:
1. First, take on lair and colonization reives.
2. As a result of those battles, obtain Simulacrum Segments.
3. Combine the segments in order to enter Skirmishes.
Reworking RMEC
Please excuse my lengthy explanation above. I'll now return to the topic at hand.
First off, since it is necessary for the development staff to further consider the implementation, we cannot guarantee the timeframe as far as whether it will be included in the next version update.
Regarding the types of parameters that would be reworked, special abilities such as Aftermath and Afterglow will remain, while parameters such as the DMG rating, attack, and accuracy will be set to match the content level post-rework.
Since the parameters will be reworked to become aligned with high content difficulty, we do not intend to rework it in small intervals such as with the previous method of Trial of the Magians.
Prior to now, RME were considered the strongest weapons, so I think there will need to be some change to this viewpoint. For those who have RME, you may not require the other weapons, but there now be a choice among other comparable weapons.
If you are worried about how these weapons will be able to be used, for example, against Delve boss monsters, here are some parameters which we are looking at for the reworking. This is just for RME one-handed swords as an example:
Excalibur
DMG:73 Delay:233 Attack+40
"Knights of Round"
Additional effect: Damage varies with HP
to
DMG:121 Delay:233 Attack+60 Accuracy+20
"Knights of Round"
Additional effect: Damage varies with HP
Burtgang
DMG:73 Delay:264 Enmity+18
Physical damage taken-18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage
"Atonement"
Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. attacks twice or thrice
to
DMG:131 Delay:264 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 Enmity+18
Physical damage taken-18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage
"Atonement"
Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. attacks twice or thrice
Almace
DMG:70 Delay:224 DEX+20
"Chant du Cygne"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
to
DMG:114 Delay:224 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 DEX+20
"Chant du Cygne"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
Since coin weapons were originally just intended to be used for Empyrean weapon skills, based on the concept, I believe that instead of reworking them, they can be used to open the dedicated weapon skills (with certain level and job restrictions). We are currently considering the adjustment procedures necessary for this..
In conclusion
I've gone on for a while, so considering the reworking for level 99 Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons as well as the unlocking of dedicated weapon skills via Coin weapons, please let us know your opinions. We will read through your thoughts one by one to make sure we understand your point of view.
Note that this is a large departure from the original plan. Considering the feasibility of scheduling this change, the development may take some time.
I apologize for keeping you waiting on my response.
Thanks in advance!
Translated by: Slycer | |
| 05-09-2013 2:19 PM | | Akihiko Matsui | | Dev Team | |
| | Follow-up: Level 99 Relic, Mythic, Empyrean, and Walk of Echoes Weapons
Matsui here.
Thank you all so much for the feedback on relic, mythic, empyrean, and Walk of Echoes weapons. It has helped out tremendously.
After reading over all of your feedback, instead of continuing the growth of these weapons by unlocking the weapon skills that are tied to each of the weapons, I feel it would be better to perform a revamp on RME weapons. (Regarding Walk of Echoes weapons, I will talk about this below, but they will be involved with unlocking the specialized weapon skills.)
I've been reworking a lot, and writing it all up, but it seems the post turned out rather lengthy, so once you have been able to read through it all and digest it we'd love to hear your feedback.
Content Level
We've received a lot of questions about the stats on Adoulin equipment, and I'd like to once again explain about growth and content levels in Seekers of Adoulin as this is a critical aspect in order to receive feedback on the revamps for RME weapons.
The content in Adoulin has been designed with a repeating play-cycle where you challenge content that you are able to at that moment in time, gather equipment, become stronger, and then take on higher tier content which will allow you to gather even stronger equipment.
It's through the procurement of equipment that will allow players to grow and level up.
We've established content levels for Adoulin content as a means to objectively display difficulty benchmarks. The below is a concrete illustration of these content levels.
| 20 |
|
Delve (Boss monsters) |
|
|
| 19 |
|
|
|
|
| 18 |
|
|
|
|
| 17 |
|
|
|
New Additions to Wildskeeper Reives |
| 16 |
|
|
|
|
| 15 |
|
|
|
|
| 14 |
|
Delve (NM group 2) |
|
|
| 13 |
|
|
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New additions to Skirmish |
| 12 |
|
|
|
|
| 11 |
|
Delve (NM group 1) |
|
|
| 10 |
|
|
|
|
| 9 |
|
|
|
New additions to Colonization/Lair Reives |
| 8 |
|
|
|
| 7 |
|
Wildskeeper Reives |
|
| 6 |
|
Skirmish |
|
| 5 |
|
Colonization/Lair Reives |
|
|
| 4 |
|
|
|
| 3 |
|
|
|
| 2 |
|
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|
| 1 |
|
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|
| Content Level |
|
Up to April 2013 |
|
Next version update (currently adjusting) |
|
Equipment strength is dependent on the level of the content you need to challenge in order to obtain the equipment, not the level in which it can be equipped. With the gear that is released in Adoulin from here on out, they can be equipped at level 99; however, instead of considering these to be level 99 pieces of equipment, it would be better for you to think of their level in terms of the content level (for example, level 110 or level 120).
The strength of the monsters that will be introduced are matched to that of the content level, but since there is somewhat of a solidified hierarchy between content, it's been setup so that the strength can be felt with even one level difference in content level. Oppositely, the parameters on Adoulin equipment have been calculated and set in order to deal with these monsters.
Fundamentally we will be making it so that the content level for content to come in the future continues to become higher, but there may be cases where we fill in areas where there is a large jump in content level as needed.
Also, in order to make it so there are various types of content sprawled across a single content level, we are supplementing it with content variations. We've also designed plans to enable resting periods where we will expand laterally instead of vertically, because players may get burnt out going full steam ahead.
In the next version update we will be adding content focusing on filling in the gaps as well as supplementing with content variation.
In the above chart, please look at the “Next version update (currently adjusting)” column. For content levels 6-9 (Skirmish/Wildskeeper Reives), we will be adding equipment appropriate for these content levels that can be exchanged for Bayld along with new Colonization and Lair Reives. Additionally, we will be filling in content for levels 13 and 17.
For those players who are already able to take on Skirmish, Wildskeeper Reives, and Delve at this point in time, it will not be absolutely necessary to challenge this content, but we will be making the above adjustments in case you want to increase your success rate, or are feeling that the current situation is still a bit tough.
Also, as a plan to resolve the issue where Skirmish is not really connecting the content as was planned, we will be undergoing maintenance at the end of this week and making it so statue segments can be obtained from Colonization and Lair Reives at a set rate. (These adjustments are separate from the rules associated with obtaining these items via Coalition Assignments, HELM, and Soul Pyres.)
By performing these adjustments we envision the below flow:
Challenge Colonization and Lair Reives
Obtain statue segments by participating in these reives
Challenge Skirmish with the parts you have obtained
Weapon Revamps
Sorry, I got off track for a bit, but now I'd like to return to the topic at hand.
To start off, I still need to discuss the implementation period with the rest of the development team, so it will be a bit difficult to address this immediately in the next version update, and we cannot make any promises as to when this will take place.
In regards to the kind of stats that will be added when we revamp these weapons, fundamentally the afterglow and aftermath effects as well as the other special stats will carry over and we'll be setting damage values, attack, and accuracy stats to coincide with the content level.
While the stats will be quite strong, we do not plan on making it possible to continuously enhance them in short intervals like the original method of enhancing via Trial of the Magians.
However, RME weapons have been considered the ultimate weapons up until this point in time, but I feel that this needs to change a bit.
I would like to make a shift so that instead of having it so that other weapons aren't necessary if you have RME weapons, you have a choice. If you are happy with RME, then you can use RME, and for those who want other weapons you can use other weapons.
With that said, there may be players who are worried if these weapons will eventually become unusable, but to give an example we had the lead make some calculations for the stats needed to combat the Delve boss monsters, and the below is what the RME swords would look like:
Excalibur
DMG: 73 Delay: 233 Attack+40 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP |
DMG: 121 Delay: 233 Attack+60 Accuracy+20 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP |
Burtgang
DMG: 73 Delay: 264 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice |
DMG: 131 Delay: 264 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice |
Almace
DMG: 70 Delay: 224 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage |
DMG: 114 Delay: 224 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage |
In regards to Walk of Echoes weapons, these were implemented with the concept of allowing players to use the specialized empyrean weapon skills, so instead of revamping them we felt it more appropriate to have them serve to unlock the weapons skills (planning to have restrictions based on jobs and level). Also, we are looking into adjustments for the method to create Walk of Echoes weapons.
In conclusion…
Apologies that this post is so long, but based on all of the above we would love to hear your feedback on the revamps to level 99 RME weapons and unlocking weapon skills with Walk of Echoes weapons.
I will be sure to read over each and every comment you all post.
My thoughts and ideas have completely turned around the plans that were originally drawn up, and I had to sit and really discuss the idea with the rest of the development team, including the possibilities of making this happen.
I apologize that this response was late and that I made you all wait.
Thank you all very much. | |
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