Matsui: "Don't Throw Away Your R/M/E Weapons Yet"

Let's also remember that Matsui let us know prior to the REM apocalypse that the design team was codifying a system to determine boundaries for equipment stats based on the content it comes from.

That *is* item level.

No, it's not going to be exactly the same as it is in WoW (and thank god for that), but the basic concept, of gear from one tier having a certain range and amount of stats and gear from the next content tier having a higher amount than that, is the same thing.

It really is.

Yes, it only partially makes sense in FFXI because of the way we swap gear. No one said Matsui necessarily knows what he's doing, only that this is what he *is* doing.

Nope your right, I just reread that post and edited it. I was working on another project when I typed that, 18 was the last octet of a system I was on.

Only 15 swapped if your a melee, but mages swap all 18. Mages can have some insanely complicated gear sets, pre-cast, mid-cast and post-cast sets for each and every spell they do.

Yeah I want to see someone try to work "Item Level" into that mess.

Item level is just a way of giving a number to the worth of an item. In DnD they use the gold cost of an item (item of cost Y should not be used by characters of a level that would not have an average wealth equal to or higher then Y). The actual value of an item depends on it's use and in FFXI we have a stupidly large number of situations that items are better or worse then each other. Several level 75 era items remain valid and sometimes best in slot because of those situations.

Just compare the "Dual Wield" earrings to Brutal + Suppa for BLU. The Haste belt vs Goading (for those who need the Store TP) or Windbuffet (for those who can cap haste elsewhere). And what's not even getting into accuracy capped vs not capped and how that can dramatically rearrange the gear ladder.

I don't remember a single person in this thread suggesting that ilevel means the same thing it does in WoW and that it'll mean from now on we'll only ever wear one set of armor at the highest ilevel.

So again, you're just being anal over the terms that people have chosen to describe the new design direction.

There is no tier system in FFXI, gear from one event (older or newer) may or may not be better then gear from another event based entirely on situation.

There is only one definition of Item Level and it was indeed the definition used by members of this forum. Don't try to backpedal now.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level

It's a one dimensional value that indicated the relative worth of an item compared to other items.

It's meaningless in FFXI because there are too many dimensions to measure various items worth and is further compounded by the players freedom to change out gear in combat. You might not know this but games that implement an Item Level system tend to not let you change out gear in battle and thus force you to choose the best pieces based on their total worth vs their situational worth. In such a case the Item Level value can be used as a gauge for the items total worth and thus as an indicator for the content level that item should be acquired from and further what content level it should be required to have.

you are clearly convinced you are right

nobody else feels that way, you're just putting words in their mouth.. they can borrow the term without requiring it to be the exact same implementation as wow

why don't you just go tell yourself you're right instead of repeating things we all already know

FTFY

No, it was not. People were talking about items being designed with a certain character level in mind (Specifically REMs and redesigning them to be "ilevel 120" or whatever) and called that item level because that's the only term that makes sense, and you come in with some horseshit about how people arn't using that term correctly when that wasn't even how the term was being used. WoW or any other MMO does not have monopoly on that term any more than it has monopoly on the terms "Eviscerate", "Rage", or "Agility".

Seriously, read the *** posts you are replying to before you go off on another one of your rants nobody in the room except you gives a ***about.

Ogier's gauntlets, Ravager's Mufflers +2, Defending Ring, Arhat's Gi +1, Armada Hauberk and so on.

These are the items that defeat any ilvl already existing in other MMOs being applied to FFXI. I'm not saying you cannot make an ilvl but it will literally takes weeks/months in order to 1) come up with an order of quality regarding all the situations an item can fill and 2) actually release it.

While SoA so far has organized TP and WS gear into clear tiers, this is not the case as soon as you have a job that has 2 modes of TP and WSing. The same way, their new system doesn't even touch any PDT/MDT/DT/idle set, any precast gear and so on. Furthermore, many jobs still use "lower tiers" gear that perform better than currently released SoA gear. Meaning that some of the gear released is essentially useless, making their ilvl lower than say, Salvage II gear, which goes against the concept.

They can make an ilvl system if they want to, but that's a huge task really, and it will only serve to make things more complicated.

If you want to explain to people what are say, the top 5 for every slot/situation, we have guides here that do this more than well. Maybe someone has an idea of a very simple way to display such things, but the way i see it, it's really messy. Until then, it may be better if the guides made here were advertised on the official forums (if they aren't already), it helps more than any blurry ilvl idea that has been discussed so far, in my opinion.

Until Matsui releases a proper, user friendly tier system to explain the ranking of every single piece of gear released to date, ilvl has 0 meaning in FFXI.

That is kinda the WoW definition .....

Don't make me bring out the chart that lists all the Item Levels and the respective content they come from and are expected to be used at. I'll embarrass the f*ck out of you.

You're missing what I'm saying.

I *know* "item level" is only going to vaguely work in FFXI. Matsui is trying to institute a system that is in all basic respects the same thing as item level. He has said as much, using slightly different terminology, presumably because he's not a WoW developer.

Whether or not it will *work* has nothing to do with whether it's what Matsui has said he wants to do.

Apparently you already forgot that you were the one claiming that "ilevel" doesn't exist in the game (or rather, people were using it incorrectly). Are you actually going to be HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE enough to claim that an ilevel 120 Ragnarok would be situational vs the current ilevel 99 Ragnarok?

Either upset or incredibly immature to resort to name-calling over something like this.

You sound really upset. Did your parents just ground you or something? Shouldn't take your irl probs out on the forums man.

For those of you that haven't kept up with Matsui's statements on the matter:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/31250-To-all-adventurers-and-pioneers!?p=409591&viewfull=1#post409591

The bit that is important is this, from Matsui:

"For those players who have reached level 99, the main focus of growth is equipment. We envision a play cycle where players take on content with their current gear in order to collect equipment with better stats, and then take on more difficult content to procure even better equipment.

We are currently working to make it so there is a common gauge for equipment and content (let's call it content levels for the time being), and to create index data that will allow those who are implementing equipment and content to have a more objective understanding of the equipment stats and monster strength. Ultimately I would like to be able to release information indicating the content level to all of you adventurers. While this is still in a phase where work needs to be done, I'm getting the feeling that things are coming together bit by bit.

The parameters for monsters that await adventurers and pioneers have been decided by the above content levels and index data."

Since you asked for it. Take your medication, don't want you having a heart attack.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level

Read down that page.

Entry level raids at Cataclysm are expected to drop item level 359 (tier 11) gear, the heroic versions drop item level 372 (heroic tier 11). Firelands is level 378 and tier 12, Firelands heroic is level 391 and heroic tier 12. Tier 13 is from level 397 and the final mega boss is item level 416.

Item levels are calculated based on the following,

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44718-item_level_mechanics/

Originally Item levels were a hidden value used by Blizzard as a gauge for what gear should come from what level content. They were based on the player level though as time went on and content was enhanced the item levels rapidly grew away from the players level.

"Item Level" is used as a gauge for what content level an item should drop from and what it's relative value is when compared to other items. That is the WoW definition and the exact definition being used by yourself and the several of the other posters here. That definition is useless in FFXI due to the sheer number of side grades and situational builds we have coupled with the amount of gear changing we do. FFXI developers just copied the concept from WoW wholesale and presented it to the player base as a way to describe how they will be implementing rewards from now on. Of course the developers don't realize we change gear as often or as fast as we do so they probably didn't realize how meaningless that term is.

Ad hominem, even veiled won't get you very far. Go troll elsewhere.

As I said before, their coping the WoW concept without first understanding it's implementation. The gear level vs content level in WoW is very controlled, there is different gear for every class and blizzard allowed their base stats to grow exponentially. Level 85 players have ridiculously HP / base stats vs level 60 players. That hasn't happened in FFXI so their "content level" scheme will fall hard once they create NM's that start doing 2,000+ damage per move.

In any case it's simply not possible to create a single numerical value to represent the relative worth of an item in FFXI. Stuff is way to situational in this game. It makes the number completely worthless.

thank god saevel is here to remind us all that wow terms apply universally whenever people use them

i'll be sure to follow your advice and stack as much agility as possible on my thief now to massively increase my attack power and critical hit rate

but seriously do you have asperger's syndrome or something, this is a serious question

No one is arguing with you! All we're saying is, "they're putting item levels into the game." Personally, I think they're stupid for even trying, but they're still doing it.

i'd say matsui's comment about taking lower end gear and using it to get higher gear, which is a requirement for higher gear is a system thats moving towards item levels (gear progression beyond 99). people are upset because it DOESNT fit in ffxi, but they are forcing it on us. i think the days of sidegrades are over

And now you've been reduced to trolling and insults. Did you run out of twists and world play to toss in my general direction?

Come on you can try harder to defend our "our unspecified vague definition is not the WoW definition yet we're using the same concepts!".

Does any1know what se said about the rem ? I have a level 90 kannagi and I still need 1092 heavy metal plates

I want you to find even one person that was talking about ilevel in this thread that was implying that we were going to stop macroing 5 different sets of gear and not just saying that an ilevel 120 relic is stronger than an ilevel 99 relic before you came in with your eternal "I better make sure everyone knows I am more righterer" attitude. I have stated this multiple times but you are apparently too thick to grasp this.

Since you're more interested in making non sequitur/straw arguments I expect another "HURR B-B-BUT WOW SAYZ" answer.

Or about heavy metal drops will there be more from different zones or nms I would like to know that as well thank you

Well there are several people still hanging on to the notion of "Item Level" being remotely useful in FFXI. The idea of "using level 120 gear would make us be as powerful as though we were level 120" and other dumb stuff.

Honestly I doubt they'll ever finish it. They've been "working on putting into the game" things like Summoner Avatars and "Enfeebling" for ages now. It's a good concept to have when your originally designing a game, you can path out character progression from newbie level all the way up and use it as a gauge for ever increasing capability. It breaks down when introduced into an environment like FFXI, especially with so many jobs, abilities and situations. Emp Armor from Abyssea was probably the closest they ever got and only because the armor was tailor made for specific class's.

We're here talking melee which is fairly simple. Everyone needs the same for TP / DPS (Haste, Accuracy, Multi-Attack, Attack). Mages on the other hand are far more complicated, try to imagine an "Item Level" for the following.

Staff DMG:100
All Jobs
INT+10
Attack +20
Cure Potency +10%
Song Cast Time -15%
Summoning Skill +15
WS accuracy +20
Double Attack +10

Lots of stats there, but their so spread out amongst all the mage jobs that the item completely sucks when compared to items with less but more focused stats.

Thanks for giving me a reason not to come back, ffxi is dead put a fork in it it's done. Mandau and aegis Lol abbysea should have had a cap for entry 70+ not 30 that was a big mes up on there part and the I came back on and off in hope of progress But returned disappointed every time they should have adopted some things from other games like in guild wars they can use dyes. Or finally adding equipable gear to your wyvern on drg. Change the color of your wyvern. Or adding a more active environment instead of npcs that just stay in one spot the whole game and do nothing having events outside of the endgame content that give you cool rewards and the loot system in 11 has always sucked until VW I think that's the best idea they have had in a while. I think that in order for ffxi to stay alive it needs to do a hell of a lot more than what they have done for SoA they still haven't given new avatars or any new blue Mage spells. The idea is to keep us fed into playing before revamped 14 is out then when we aren't looking they pull the plug on 11 like they wanted to when they were bringing 14 out the first time

You did, as did Comeatmebro.

Several people have alluded to and sometimes stated that getting better gear would let you seem to be of a level higher then you are and that "Item Level" is the reflection of that pseudo-level. I've demonstrated that it can't work that way as there are simply too many situations in FFXI for any single value to be representative of a items worth or power.

Looking at the gear from Batalia Downs Meebles in comparison to other LV99 equipment I'd say they probably determine the item level like this

JP Dev Tracker has the following info posted, assuming its the info on the new ammo.


Arrow = Dmg: 74
Bullet = Dmg: 196
Bolt = Dmg:93

if its cheap... goodbye damascus bullets