2nd Child Dies After Parents Choose Prayer

One of the Christian sacraments is the acceptance of the Eucharist(blood and body of Christ). Some do it in the form of wine/bread others accept it via prayer whatever...When you accept the Eucharist that basically a contract with the man upstairs that you are to be faithful and devoted.

Part of that contract includes random testing of faith, so to speak. Both the Old and New Testament confirm the "random testing." Everyone goes through a "random testing of faith." I know it sucks. So I guess what I'm saying is that the questioning of faith is completely normal.

I've already accepted the fact that this may very well be my "test". It's just the enormity of it and the sheer fact that it's taken so long, and may not even produce the result that I want for her.

And yes, I still do feel a little catharsis in accepting the sacrament. It's just horribly conflicting.

This is going to sound really weird, but what I do like about Catholicism is, not the notion that you would be absolved of everything, but the fact that you can candidly speak to someone anonymously about "sins". I did do confession at the Vatican when I went to Rome when I was twenty, even though I'm baptized and confirmed Lutheran.

I don't even know if I should start in on what an annoyance it has been trying to set up the baptism of my son since my BF and I aren't married. I really wish my pastor was still alive, because I'm finding a lot of "red-tape" locally. I swear I would just jet up to my parents' home and arrange everything there.

Ugh...I should have stayed out of this thread all together.

I think that's your problem right there. You may not be receive the result you want, simply because that is not what is pre-destined. Sometimes it happens to teach a lesson or prepare for something else.

I think my internal turmoil resolved itself when I finally accepted that everything happens for a reason.

As far as baptizing your son. Yeah it's going to be a hassle if you two aren't married umm. Technically you don't have to tell them you live with your bf lol If you get what I'm saying. They usually only give you red tape if you two aren't married and living together.

I've tried to accept the same. When I go into these funks, I do get super critical of myself and my thought patterns. I try to tackle it from multiple angles the best I possibly can. The problem is I'm very emotionally invested in her well being. I've even thought that maybe this is a collective lesson. My and my friend's "punishment" and process of atonement. Her lesson in finally growing a spine and throwing an elbow (I sincerely hope).

I've been to four Lutheran churches here and two Catholic ones (the BF is Catholic). The pastor I had through confirmation would baptize children despite marital status, because to him, the baptism is purely about the child and not the parents.

EDIT: All of life's questions can be summed up by 'The Wizard of Oz'...



I need to say goodnight with an LOL.

Looks like this thread took a turn for the better in the last few pages with Sylow throwing down some awesome posts and Zahrah pouring a cautionary tale on what happens when people go full tilt crazy. This thread is better in that direction than trying to flip it into some political Red v. Blue that some people seem to enjoy doing for the lulz.

It really does bother me every time I see someone who is so deeply indoctrinated that it begins to affect them in bizarre and destructive ways ranging from mental abuse based on what scripture dictates (females who break under the oppression of the "superior" male figure as per religious rules really irks me) to people who make violent threats towards anyone who doesn't believe their crock of claims. I try to mainly avoid involving myself in such situations but sometimes it can be too much to bear and I've had to cut friends off out of sheer disgust with the positions they've taken.

Storytime~!

Scripture is much like a textbook, it's supposed to be a tool to help you understand a particular field- in this case faith.

In Judaism and Christianity, the bible is meant to be studied. I really don't see that in most American Christian church's. However, I do see it in synagogues. Most Jewish people I know are very well read in the bible, so well read they know the original Hebrew, some even the Greek, words for particular passages. I do see some Catholics, and fewer Protestants who are that learned of the bible.

That says something about the Bible and American Christian culture: When did the Bible stop becoming a study? And when did the Bible become an accessory for a Priest/Reverend/Pastor?

It seems to me many Catholics/Christians in this country forgot the function of a priest/reverend/pastor: facilitate religious ceremonies and translate the bible for the illiterate/those who could not understand Hebrew/Greek/Latin/etc. That second function is near obsolete since the advent of the KJV.

It baffles me how these "Christian fundamentalists" in this country condemn left and right, and seem to know what circle of hell everyone is going, when Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene to be his best friend.

Was church ever a professorial environment? My memories of Church involved shutting up, planting your *** in a seat, listening to some songs and singing some songs before listening to a one way communication from pastor to you. I'm interested if others had a more hands on experience.

Don't you dare ask any questions either unless you want to be scorned by your fellow churchgoers but again, anecdotes on my part. Its just what church became to me: A place you go to show off your dress, flaunt ranks, get attendance for showing up, reinforce the status quo and leave no more enlightened than you entered. I'd play my handheld games while holding the hymnal open with one hand for my mother whenever the songs would come up. My sister often just slept through it and I rarely felt apart of anything other than the awkward kids sitting in the pews club.

I do admit freely that I liked many of the songs though.

It also doesn't help that an individual reading of the Bible is an arduous experience to say the least and that is due to mixed facts, non-facts and exaggerated facts that are all over the text. How exactly a common reader isn't supposed to take the flood seriously or the she-bears tearing people to pieces or all of the OT in its entirety if they were simply reading the text without outside input is beyond me.

If I said "this is a book written by the architect of the universe and your immortal soul depends on understanding it" before handing you the text and leaving you alone to digest it you'd be inclined to believe everything so long as you accepted by initial claim and that is only if you're willing to overlook the contradictions.


The question is more like when has the Bible truly been studied by the masses rather than simply being used as a tool to influence the social construct? Many of the people we read about who took the text apart looking for truth were learned men, the Catholic church kept the text from the masses precisely because of the potential that you could take it anywhere as seen with the Protestant Reformation and the masses have generally always done whatever they wanted until the religious authorities cracked down.

It's no different now. People generally don't give a ***what the Bible says and their excuses for abhorrent behavior is one passed down like Grandma's chicken soup recipe with plenty of cherrypicking of Biblical scripture suited to their particular biases and tailored to fit the specific time period. Slavery? Bible says its np. Hatred against homosexuals? There's a passage for that. Genocide? Bible has it covered. Misogyny? Blam-o, its right there ***.

Cafeterians has never been such a precise definition of people who claim to be so faithful. For a text that is supposed to be SO profound that it influences your daily actions in the world you'd think that most people would have read the freakin' text but nope, apparently "The Hunger Games" and "Fifty Shades of Gray" is more important and that speaks volumes to me. Our religiosity in this country is nothing more than a facade designed to placate a perceived social construct that demands we accept Jesus, God and the fantastic stories of the Bible before doing whatever it is we were going to do anyway.

People will often throw the "well the Bible is the bestseller of all time!" or "we have billions of followers!" and to that I say "quality, not quantity." It's pretty sad when the Catholic Church has to put out commercials like World of Warcraft where they are sure to remind you how many subs they have. Really?

I had some very different experiences than you with the Church...

Baconwrap. If we're predestined with a plan from god, like you said, then how is freewill possible? On on another note, why would anyone bother praying for something if the outcome is already destined to happen?

Did I miss something where wrap said that our fate was predestined? That's thought is actually completely incompatible with Christianity...

ahhh.. previous post...

Yeah I'd have to say that is wrong... at least as it relates the christianity... nothing is pre-destined and God was seen to give man free will to make his own destiny... if everything were predestined it would invalidate quite a bit about the Church...

Calvinist doctrine does peddle predestination through unconditional election though he wasn't the first person to dabble with the idea.

Basically, the cards have already been drawn and so our decisions in life are all ultimately meaningless as the chosen have been chosen and the damned are already damned by God. It removes the pointscoring aspect of life to one of simply surviving to the end and hoping that you aren't given nosebleed tickets to Hell.

Here is four verses that support what baconwrap said.

*Rom 8:21-30* " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

*Rom 9:15-16* " For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

*Rom 9:21* "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

*Rom 9:11-13* "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Sorry to disillusion you Bacon, but I'm Jewish, and like the vast majority of Jews I know, I can still recognize the alphabet, but never had any fluency in Hebrew at all. And I studied Latin, not Greek. No, not good enough at it to read the Vulgate.

I did read my way through the Torah and the KJ in my teens, and still have a copy of The Parallel Bible around.

BTW, the Bar Mitzvah is a literacy test.

Also, given that the Devil can quote scripture he can then open divinity schools and teach false interpretations of scripture.

I only wish that more Christians would follow Christ's teachings.

Kind of glad I'm not religious. I didn't understand a single word of that >_<.

Just the idea of a pre destined fate is something I can't really accept... I can't see how a person of faith could either... it pretty much invalidates it...

Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37

*** you jesus you fariy tale man, my kids win every time

Actually several protestant denominations are Predestinationist. Calvinism being the best known.

Why would you wish that more people would follow the bible?

Since everyone began taking the bible less literally:

Pagans are no longer being burned at stake for being witches.

Women are no longer being stoned for losing theire virginity before marriage.

There are no more inquisitions, crusades, ethnic cleansings, etc.

Women are no longer being as oppressed as they were.

Most countries are finally coming around to giving gays equal rights.

Hopefully it gets even better!

You put all of that completely on the shoulders of Christianity?

I wish my parents were more like you!

My parents are loony toons :(

Yes Flavin, it definitely gets attributed to Christianity.

Christopher Hitchens one said something on the lines of, "Good people will always do good things, and bad people will do evil things. But the only way to get a good person to do something evil is through religion."

Let me give you my own personal example:

The bible describes Father Abraham as one of the most righteous men alive.

Would he kill his own son for money? No.

Would he kill his own son for power? No.

Would he kill his own son if he slept with his wife? No.

Would he kill his own son of God asked him to? YES.

Is that clear enough?

No it isn't lol...

Are you familiar with that story?

Agreed. So why wouldn't we want to rid ourselves of ideologies that promote evil actions?

because people want to believe in something that would give them a sense of purpose in life.

Yes. What it doesn't explain is how you lay all of those thing solely at the feet of Christianity...

I can only assume you're trying to use one story to explain that people would do things for God that they would not normally do for any other reason... but even then it does not lay the blame for all of those acts at the feet of Christianity or as a result of reading the bible...

Sparth referenced how people cherry pick from the bible to excuse their actions... looks like others cherry pick with other intentions as well...

That's backwards, people are raised to believe in it first, then the cling on to it.