Best Mythic Weapon And Why

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Best Mythic Weapon and why
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 Ragnarok.Lowen
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By Ragnarok.Lowen 2013-01-15 17:13:13
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
Nope, pretty sure they're both more useful than Murgleis.
Murgleis at least is nice looking.

Nagi looks all right. Tupsimati looks pretty dumb but at least they can both be used under normal circumstances. When do you ever melee on RDM, and when you are, why would you ever melee with Murgleis? Almace or a dagger are going to serve you way better than Murgleis will in any situation you find yourself engaged with an enemy. And Death Blossom is garbage.

Ignoring all that, the augment is useless, largely because any race that isn't tarutaru is already overcapping their HP:MP ratio for convert. Never mind that the only time I even use Convert is to expedite the process of death warping.

It may look all right (I prefer Burtgang, myself), but I think it's pretty easily the worst Mythic.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-01-15 17:14:33
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Don't compare them through usefulness cause Nagi is just as ***. My lighthearted comment was at least giving Murgleis the privilege of looks among shitty mythics.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-01-15 17:17:46
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Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
Nope, pretty sure they're both more useful than Murgleis.
Murgleis at least is nice looking.

Nagi looks all right. Tupsimati looks pretty dumb but at least they can both be used under normal circumstances. When do you ever melee on RDM, and when you are, why would you ever melee with Murgleis? Almace or a dagger are going to serve you way better than Murgleis will in any situation you find yourself engaged with an enemy. And Death Blossom is garbage.

Ignoring all that, the augment is useless, largely because any race that isn't tarutaru is already overcapping their HP:MP ratio for convert. Never mind that the only time I even use Convert is to expedite the process of death warping.

It may look all right (I prefer Burtgang, myself), but I think it's pretty easily the worst Mythic.

Explain to me what makes Nagi or Tupsimati any more useful than a melee RDM using Murgleis
 Ragnarok.Lowen
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By Ragnarok.Lowen 2013-01-15 17:28:40
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
Nope, pretty sure they're both more useful than Murgleis.
Murgleis at least is nice looking.

Nagi looks all right. Tupsimati looks pretty dumb but at least they can both be used under normal circumstances. When do you ever melee on RDM, and when you are, why would you ever melee with Murgleis? Almace or a dagger are going to serve you way better than Murgleis will in any situation you find yourself engaged with an enemy. And Death Blossom is garbage.

Ignoring all that, the augment is useless, largely because any race that isn't tarutaru is already overcapping their HP:MP ratio for convert. Never mind that the only time I even use Convert is to expedite the process of death warping.

It may look all right (I prefer Burtgang, myself), but I think it's pretty easily the worst Mythic.

Explain to me what makes Nagi or Tupsimati any more useful than a melee RDM using Murgleis

You can at least melee on NIN under normal circumstances. You can nuke with Tupsimati under normal circumstances (why you would is another question entirely). You can't really melee on RDM under normal circumstances. Thus, Murgleis will already see less potential use than either of those two.

Furthermore, Nagi's augment provides Reraise on Mijin. Tupsimati's enhancement is nearly as worthless as Murgleis' though. But Murgleis' is literally useless. It increases the HP:MP ratio of Convert to 1:3 (and vice versa). Any race that isn't Tarutaru (and even most tarus thanks to HP merits) already have nearly a 2:1 HP:MP ratio. It is absolutely worthless.

They're all garbage, really. Arguing over which one is the biggest waste of gil is like arguing over which prison inmate I drop the soap in front of.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-01-15 17:29:51
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Way to make a bad argument even worse.
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 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-01-15 17:40:43
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The worst part about Tupsimati and Murgleis is that the mythics were supposed to be the answer to the "relics don't really help mages" problem.

At least Nagi could be a serviceable weapon (albeit the weakest of the three options for NIN). Tupsi and Murgleis are not just inferior to other options, they are inferior to trial weapons and ***you can buy on the auction house.

Murgleis IS pretty, though.
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 Ragnarok.Lowen
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By Ragnarok.Lowen 2013-01-15 17:47:10
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Way to make a bad argument even worse.

Then you or Prothescar can explain to me where I've erred in my judgement. The only thing Murgleis has going for it that I can see is that it looks all right.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-01-15 17:50:35
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Pretty and has an effect that actually does something remotely close to useful. All three are ***, don't get me wrong, but by no means is Murgleis more useless than Nagi and Tupsimati.
 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-01-15 17:51:05
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God, I just looked up Nagi again, to see if I'd missed something. 227 delay!

I realize SE doesn't like to go back and wildly adjust existing content, but good lord, revisit the mythics. Nothing that costs a half a billion gil on top of everything else should be useless.
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2013-01-15 17:58:37
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Quote:
Tupsimati looks pretty dumb

I think it looks pretty cool myself. It's like a Tablet on a staff, matching the whole grimoire motif of SCH.

If there's one thing they didn't *** up on every single mythic, it's the designs. I think all of look really cool and the effort goes to show, since they're all unique models.

If we're talking just effect, yeah, Nagi/Tupsimati are easily the worst. Like Proth said though, saying Murgleis is better than those two is like saying getting shot in the face is better than being stoned to death.

Quote:
I realize SE doesn't like to go back and wildly adjust existing content, but good lord, revisit the mythics. Nothing that costs a half a billion gil on top of everything else should be useless.

They really should revisit every REM. I have some glimmer of hope now since things seem to be changing around with Matsui as the director.
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 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-01-15 18:06:43
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Leviathan.Kincard said: »
They really should revisit every REM.

True, but I'm less concerned about relics and empyreans as those are comparatively easier to make. And really, other than Claustrum, none of them are insanely horrible in terms of effort/reward (it's possible I've forgotten some of the bad ones).

The mythics though, they're substantially more effort, time, and money, and other than the Dragon Whisker, have some caveats (lookin at you, Conqueror). If something is harder/more expensive to make than both of the other Ultimate options put together, it really should be more of a hands down winner.
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By Bahamut.Cantontai 2013-01-15 18:12:20
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Bismarck.Kelhor said: »
Leviathan.Kincard said: »
They really should revisit every REM.

True, but I'm less concerned about relics and empyreans as those are comparatively easier to make. And really, other than Claustrum, none of them are insanely horrible in terms of effort/reward (it's possible I've forgotten some of the bad ones).

The mythics though, they're substantially more effort, time, and money, and other than the Dragon Whisker, have some caveats (lookin at you, Conqueror). If something is harder/more expensive to make than both of the other Ultimate options put together, it really should be more of a hands down winner.

I kind of like the trifecta of Ukon/Conq/Brav. At least in theory they focus on 3 aspects of WAR that people care about (DD/Zerg DD/Defensive DD). It's almost similar to Bard's E/R/M in that all of them have some use but none of them are so overpowered that you can make one and never worry about the other two. It would be nice to see them balance all E/R/M this way, but there's been a lot of "X was designed with game balance in mind, changing it would have unwanted effects blah blah" lately so I'm not too optimistic.
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 Bismarck.Kelhor
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By Bismarck.Kelhor 2013-01-15 18:16:14
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Brav's quite a bit weaker than the other two. If MT's aftermath broke the -PDT cap, that would make it a stronger option.

But really, my point is exactly the opposite - for most DD jobs, you can only use one of them at a time, so if there's an option that's more expensive than the other two combined (in terms of gil AND effort), why shouldn't it win hands down?
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-15 18:26:08
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Phoenix.Kaparu said: »
That's compelling, and completely untrue, but alright.

You didn't get a real response because your own response was stupid. "Disproportionate burden" is not something that you will be able to adequately define, and most events that are "slightly" job restrictive (voidwatch) are typically done with so many people that the "adding an additional person" isn't a particularly valid argument either.

Let's go through the events one by one. If jobs are excluded because a top tier (insert job here) is incapable of making a contribution (Note, I don't mean that certain jobs aren't the most effective) to the event, it will be noted.

1.) LV75 Content

This can be done on virtually any job as long as you have a job with innate healing capacity with you. There are virtually no restrictions, anywhere. Occasionally things will be immune to physical damage or magical damage. Some content has a minimum number of participants.

Odin I is a special case in that Ninja is highly favored by the fight due to Migawari. It is not however, compulsory a this is a 6-person event and it only uses Geirrothr predictably three times. Sacrificing 3 people while the others run away at the right time will also work just fine. This is obviously not a reasonable strategy if you're multiboxing a bunch of mules. Perhaps this would be what you consider a "disproportionate burden?"

2.) Meeble Burrows

Enemies in Meeble Burrows are on the whole extremely weak. Scholar is a favored healer due to this, and a Scholar can solo heal pretty much the entire event, but a White Mage is fine too. Certain fights are more difficult, but virtually any melee job is capable of contributing. One DD and one healer works, but 2 DDs and 2 healers is probably the "ideal minimum." You are rewarded for bringing more people, so "adding additional players" can be beneficial, not detrimental. Time limits are very forgiving.

3.) Salvage 2: A very friendly event to most jobs, with the exception of the Hydra boss which is a bit nastier than the others. Still, Scholar is arguably the best healer for this event and you're fighting one boss and Embrava + Regen V makes it difficult to die. A White Mage is fine too and there are some arguments for Red Mage on certain bosses. It is understood that you will adjust your support based on your targets, but there isn't all that much that favors DDs over the other (besides the general friendliness toward MNK that salvage possesses anyway) as the time limit is very lenient, but perhaps you'd like to post a few paragraphs educating me on the value of five minutes.

4.) Neo Nyzul has had its difficulty significantly reduced and pretty much any top-tier melee of any class is likely capable of making a valuable contribution - I want to say probably even BST but even I'm shaky on making that claim.

5.) Voidwatch there a a few nastier fights where several jobs cannot reliably participate (Botulus Rex). But even Provenance Watcher offers significant leeway after the most important "Proc-master" positions are filled. It is understood that you will fill the "proc-master" positions and acquire adequate support, but a variety of melees can offer significant DPS contributions beyond dead weight. Perhaps killing in 3m25s vs. 3m02s should constitute "disproportionate burden?"

Occasionally jobs will be rendered ineffective versus specific targets due to natural damage type resistances, but even these can usually be bent.

Addressing by Tier:

Cities: As the JPs put it, "Job Unquestioned." Your goal is to get enough people to actually go there and do it and you don't really have much room to be picky if someone wants to actually do the fight with you.

Jeuno I-II, Zilart I-II: See "Cities."

Jeuno III: Similar to "Cities" but it might be slightly to your benefit to start restricting your melees based on competency at this point, whereas it didn't particularly matter before.

Jeuno IV-V: Generally weaker than Jeuno III.

Zilart III: Similar to "Jeuno III" except you often need to fill a slot with a PLD.

Jeuno VI - Past: Kalasutrax is unfriendly to physical damage in the first place, but the other two posess no inherent qualities to exclude "non-traditional DDs." Job-restrictive only in the case of Kalasutrax.

CoP climb:, ToAU Climb: Enemy level and defense begins to rise at this point, rendering one-handers at a disadvantage but a top-tier one-hander can still contribute. Still, ensuring proc diversity is a bit more of a concern than it was previously.

Bismarck: Often fought with job restrictive strategies. One handers are particularly ineffective. Significantly job-restrictive.

Morta: More friendly than Bismarck to melees but still high level. More or less requires a Paladin and competent stunners. Slightly job-restrictive.

Provenance: High level enemies, high buff situations. One-handed jobs are disfavored but can still respectably contribute if offered proper support in strong groups, but it's generally not worth it. These fights require more support in general which limits slots available. Job-restrictive.

6.) Abyssea The days of "we don't do Abyssea without these 5 jobs" is over. Face it, chances are if you're in Abyssea you're either fighting worms or soloing something with the company of your left hand.


I already listed Odin II and Legion as being restrictive events. The vast majority of content in this game is not job-restrictive as long as you have satisfied the basic requirements of the event (which is in most cases, a healer).
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By Areayea 2013-01-15 18:36:09
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always have said this, and after testing it out... NIRVANA IS WIN... no arguing if you have a merit bp fully merited, it increases the dmg significantly, and it's basically a staff that says HERE FREE AVATAR (ya ya I know you trolls ok fine avatar that only costs 2 mp), plus playing around meleeing ***it actually isn't that bad of a melee for a mage.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-01-15 18:36:48
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All VW can be done with 12 characters or less, no phasers, reliably and in 3 minutes or less. If you start changing the jobs, the number of people goes up. You can't just call it irrelevant because most groups go with 18: you're still requiring more people which requires more time assembling those people.

Odin 1 isn't 6 compulsory, it's easily completed with 2 good DD + BRD + SCH.

75 Content is wildly variable, and half of the jobs will be unable to solo a lot of it.

Calling more people in meebles rewarding is a stretch, a lot of the good gear direct drops and nowadays everyone wants the same exact ***.

Allowing a subpar job choice in salvage 2 trio is fine, allowing 2-3 usually isn't. That's still a detriment. Many DD can be nearly or fully one-shotted, especially by the hydra boss.

I appreciate the whole 'any job can do any content' sentiment, and fully agree, but that's not what was said.

Kaparu said:
Without disproportionate burden on other players and/or having to add additional members to your team? I disagree
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-15 18:42:50
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OK, fine.

Disproportionate burden is a subjective non-metric.

Adding additional members to one's team is rarely an issue. I suppose you could make that argument for Odin I.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-15 18:47:19
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ALTHOUGH TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST,

We don't know what sort of content SoA will introduce. My best advice to anyone is to not make anything right now, because how you spend your time could shift very drastically in the next few months.
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-01-15 19:03:58
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Hngggggg feeling inspired to make a big post on the official forum about how they should adjust mythics so that they don't suck and have a useful niche.
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By Areayea 2013-01-15 19:08:38
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true... imo I believe you get relics for consistently good dps and good additionals, you get empys for great CRIT dmg, and you get mythics for some job specific reason. that being said of course some mythics are gonna suck... but that's because their corresponding job's abilities suck. Some empys/relics are gonna suck, but that's cuz their corresponding job doesn't really have a need for melee type damage. only real exceptions to these rules kinda are pld and brd... but we all should know why.
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By Ragnarok.Lowen 2013-01-15 19:10:59
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What Zilart T3 gets any benefit from having a PLD present? Anyone can pop the mob and chug Fanatic's in a corner with the adds until it dies.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-15 19:13:52
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Ragnarok.Lowen said: »
What Zilart T3 gets any benefit from having a PLD present? Anyone can pop the mob and chug Fanatic's in a corner with the adds until it dies.

Fine by me.
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By Carbuncle.Shadowreapper 2013-01-15 19:14:44
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Hngggggg feeling inspired to make a big post on the official forum about how they should adjust mythics so that they don't suck and have a useful niche.
Please ask them to take off the attack penality on drakes IF you have a ryu. <3
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By Phoenix.Kaparu 2013-01-15 19:41:43
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
OK, fine.

Disproportionate burden is a subjective non-metric.

Adding additional members to one's team is rarely an issue. I suppose you could make that argument for Odin I.

Disproportionate burden doesn't have to have an absolute value to it. If I show up ninja and my partner brings his Ukon-WAR, I'm willingly shifting the burden of success on my partner(or partners, in the case of something akin to Neo-Nyzul). We both know that exists; I'm not sure why you're alluding to the contrary.

The direct-drop business has already been covered, so I won't beat that horse.

The condescension is appreciated, though. Carry on.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-15 19:49:40
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"dis·pro·por·tion·ate
/ˌdisprəˈpôrSHənit/
Adjective
Too large or too small in comparison with something else.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-01-15 19:58:57
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Carbuncle.Shadowreapper said: »
Please ask them to take off the attack penality on drakes IF you have a ryu. <3
Why leave it at just Ryuu users? Drg needs it anyway. Though the fix they need is quite a bit more wide spread than an atk penalty on just ws. Drg effectively has an attack penalty as a job trait.
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By Phoenix.Kaparu 2013-01-15 20:00:04
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
"dis·pro·por·tion·ate
/ˌdisprəˈpôrSHənit/
Adjective
Too large or too small in comparison with something else.

Panties thoroughly wadded. Gotcha.

Pssst

Phoenix.Kaparu said: »
Carry on.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-01-15 20:03:07
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I applaud you for your mature and constructive addition to the conversation.
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By Phoenix.Kaparu 2013-01-15 20:06:22
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And I you. Being dismissive, insulting, and condescending at record speed, and with utmost class.

Lacking an absolute value and being measurable are not mutually exclusive, nor does something need to be measurable to be recognizably legitimate. But please, the one-liners are delightful, and you know, contributory. lol
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By Smurfite 2013-01-15 20:14:46
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Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai said: »
-Ryunohige
-Kogarasumaru
-Yagrush
-Conquerer(?)

Are the only ones worth making, take yer pick chief

Glanzfaust. nuf said
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