The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Sylph.Darkside
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By Sylph.Darkside 2019-03-15 11:13:01
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SimonSes said: »
War has few things that should make it very good even without holding TP at least for 2 mins. It's native 18% crit damage, 10% crit rate, warcry and blood rage. You just need to mix this well. Possibly use set with STR,DA,crit damage for blood rage up and WSing at low TP and WSD,STR for WSing with warcry. Not sure what to do when both warcry and blood rage would be on cooldown. Possibly change weapon or hold TP to 2000+. Not sure really. Need tests!
Yea. Definitely needs more testing. I just popped in in my Chango set. When over 2k I was impressed but under I was underwhelmed. Again, quick test, not optimized gear clearly.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-15 11:35:25
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It's not about max WS damage but total WS damage. ID and Upheaval have different gear sets at 1k vs 1700+.

10 DA does the exact same thing as 10 Store TP but gives more melee damage, this means we tune to find a balance between MA and Store TP that results in maximum TP gain over time.
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By SimonSes 2019-03-15 12:13:42
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Calculating several jobs in Mote sheets and my own sheet in past couple of months ahowed me that highest WS frequency is not always the best DPS for some builds and WSs.

When some things are mixed togather, they create scenario where holding tp is more dps, because of ws delay. Those criteria are high white damage, low ws damage at 1000tp and high WS damage scaling with TP. Monk is great example here because he has everything from that list and outside of Vsmiting with Impetus up and with r15 veret, its usually the best to hold tp for raging rush or tornado kick. More info with numbers in mnk thread.

It might be similar scenario for thia polearm. Its definietelly seema to be the case for SAM. SAM doesnt have high white damage with this polearm, but Impulse scale so exeptionally well and Sam tp per round is so high that holding to seems to be optimal way for using Shining One on SAM. Now for WAR without warcry its very hard to estimate, because WAR has more arguments that makes Impulse a little better at low tp, while also having less tp per round. So for WAR hilding tp might not be optimal. But we will see. Ejin is testing it now i think.
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By Afania 2019-03-15 15:41:46
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Spaitin said: »
SimonSes said: »
Asura.Dinotron said: »
Spaitin said: »
it has a really amazing 5 step SC if you feel like seeing big numbers.

Which 5step is that?

I'm having trouble deciding between Polearm and Axe and only have 1 pulse weapon to sacrifice to the Ambu gods. Just how good is the polearm compared to the axe from a purely dps standpoint? Only thing keeping me from going polearm is really my lack of an ID set (compared to a BiS decimation set) and the inevitable nerf if it's truly "broken."

None knows.

Decimation build has around 7300DPS according to spreadsheet. That's far from OP actually. AFAIK WAR spreadsheet havent been updated. We only know how good are some weapons vs others from practical tests. So no data for ShinignOne from spreadsheet, tho it would be hard to even put it in spreadsheet with it's unknown crit rate bonus at various TP. AFAIK none amde reliable tests with ShiningOne used optimally on WAR. Ejin did on SAM and he will be doing it on WAR. I think on SAM it has DPS above 10k (coming from some Neak kills, when Ejin did like 270k damage in 20 sec, but he was starting with 3000TP on short fight, so its a little biased). I wish Ejin would use some SB to show DPS XD

So ShiningOne is confirmed OP on SAM. test on WAR are still in the near future, unless someone will make it before Ejin.
i think your spread sheets are wrong, with max buffs on neak/yakshi last night i was going between 7400 and 8200 dps on neak/yakshi with decimation axe. which is good but behind raetic and chango. with 22 consecutive neak/yakshi kills with HM VM ATTACK ACC FURY FRAIL SAM ROGUES with 2 shining one wielding DPS. one sam one war. Average was around 8k. which puts it a bit behind other options. the crit hit rate temp item used on about 1/4th of the fights.

Spreadsheet will never be carbon copy of real parse data because it calculates avg. In real parses there are entirely way too many random elements (MA proc, get lucky/unlucky with misses etc) that makes dps spike higher or lower than avg.

Dps in escha will also be much higher than outside.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-15 16:57:15
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The Great Sword has me interested, lots of Atk / Acc and it's special should apply a defense down effect on every WS including Resolution. The effect seems variable so we'll have to see testing to be sure.
 Ragnarok.Haxetc
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By Ragnarok.Haxetc 2019-03-15 21:57:08
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Anyone have any Dolichenus screenshots or logs showing the increase in damage as the skillchain chain increases? Kinda curious if it's even worth doing skillchains or if you should just spam Decimation.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-15 22:15:49
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Ragnarok.Haxetc said: »
Anyone have any Dolichenus screenshots or logs showing the increase in damage as the skillchain chain increases? Kinda curious if it's even worth doing skillchains or if you should just spam Decimation.

The BST's already tested it.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/45830/killer-instinct-the-beastmaster-compendium/62/#3417325
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By Spaitin 2019-03-16 14:53:16
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Ragnarok.Haxetc said: »
Anyone have any Dolichenus screenshots or logs showing the increase in damage as the skillchain chain increases? Kinda curious if it's even worth doing skillchains or if you should just spam Decimation.
axe actually has a really nice 5 step SC to spam if you want to do that. probably only feasible while solo.

Rampage > Decimation > Smash Axe > Decimation > Decimation
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By Spaitin 2019-03-16 19:03:17
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on yakshi, shining one is pretty trash on war. neak it hits gigantic numbers. testing maju shortly. with rostam crooked rogues sam fighters chaos idris frail and fury entrust torpor with HM VM ATTACK ACC and warcry you are hitting around 28-40k with a 31k average with shining one. maybe yakshi has some crit resistance i dont know about. chango averaged 41k and reso averaged 47k. only 4 fights with each weapon. chango won handily because of SC.
used allies instead of rogue on chango and monks roll on reso.

Fired impulse at 2k + warcry and monnshade. yakshi just doesnt seem to take damage from it. same set up with neak had 84k average. chango and raetic still beat shining one on neak. WS frequency was huge i think . Party set up was GEO COR COR WHM BARD WAR.

apparently yakshi is piercing resistant. So that makes more sense haha. Tomahawk made it be a bit more respectable on yakshi, but obviously not an ideal weapon. with waiting to 2k tp on impulse and just free spamming reso. Raetic reso spam beat shining one on maju on most fights with raetic winning overall. It was however pretty close. did 5 maju with shining one and 5 with raetic. disabled parses until blind landed.
 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2019-03-16 19:07:13
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All Yggdreant mobs massively resist piercing damage.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2019-03-16 19:07:29
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Yggdreants are piercing resistant.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-03-16 19:42:36
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Tree's resist piercing like crazy so yeah Yakshi isn't gonna take damage from it.

My own testing has Chango being stronger then Shining One due to sheer WS frequency. Remember it's not about WS average it's about total WS damage and ID suffers from low WS TP return (misers helps a ton here) and not having Store TP on it like Chango or Montante do.
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By Spaitin 2019-03-16 19:46:35
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Tree's resist piercing like crazy so yeah Yakshi isn't gonna take damage from it.

My own testing has Chango being stronger then Shining One due to sheer WS frequency. Remember it's not about WS average it's about total WS damage and ID suffers from low WS TP return (misers helps a ton here) and not having Store TP on it like Chango or Montante do.
yeah misers works really well for Shining one. but with the holding for 2k tp it seemed to lose a bit of its zing. i had chango motante and raetic beating shining one on anything not piercing weak. I will say that shining one is competitive. On teles for three runs in a row i averaged 99k impulse drives. so probably the best weapon for that fight.

all my tests were in reis. wave three boss is kinda hard to test. so idk about that.
 
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By 2019-03-17 11:21:46
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By Taint 2019-03-17 11:26:19
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Asura.Yojimmbo said: »
Behemoth steak+1 gives triple attack +2, does a triple attack set exist on Warrior?


Flamma Head, Dagon body are the usual sources.

Beyond that it’s QA from DM augments.
 
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 Fenrir.Melphina
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-03-17 17:13:17
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Quote:
My own testing has Chango being stronger then Shining One due to sheer WS frequency. Remember it's not about WS average it's about total WS damage and ID suffers from low WS TP return (misers helps a ton here) and not having Store TP on it like Chango or Montante do.

I suspected this would be the case when people had enough time to test it. Shining one feels extraordinarily competitive for the amount of effort it takes to get, just like most of the other ambu weapons. I think they all fall just a smidge short of full REMA though. Very close, but not quite the best. That was clearly S-E's intent with them and I think they got it right on all counts, and I'm impressed that they all feel so well placed. There's a strong correlation with the shining one's general playstyle and my thief's. You can weaponskill more often at close to 1k, but to really get the most of it it feels like you want to go at closer to 2k. So there's a tradeoff between weaponskill frequency and weaponskill power. That's kind of like twashter with SA and TA, but the difference is in the white damage. I think S-E really hit the nail on the head with all these weapons. The time/reward ratio feels really good.
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By SimonSes 2019-03-17 17:33:54
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Tree's resist piercing like crazy so yeah Yakshi isn't gonna take damage from it.

My own testing has Chango being stronger then Shining One due to sheer WS frequency. Remember it's not about WS average it's about total WS damage and ID suffers from low WS TP return (misers helps a ton here) and not having Store TP on it like Chango or Montante do.

Yeah but ws frequency is not always the most efficient. It depends how much your ws damage scale with tp and how high damage it does at 1000tp and lastly how much white damage you do. For example with MNK without impetus you will do more dps with holding tp and WS for more.

In big simplification

If you do 20k WS after 2 tp rounds and you do 6k white damage in tp round that takes 1.5sec and you need to make 3 more tp rounds to ws for 45k then you option is:
2 rounds and ws for 20k. Total time 5sec, total damage 32k. Dps 6400
5 rounds and ws for 45k. Total time 9.5 sec, total damage 75k. Dps 7894
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By Spaitin 2019-03-17 19:25:47
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SimonSes said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Tree's resist piercing like crazy so yeah Yakshi isn't gonna take damage from it.

My own testing has Chango being stronger then Shining One due to sheer WS frequency. Remember it's not about WS average it's about total WS damage and ID suffers from low WS TP return (misers helps a ton here) and not having Store TP on it like Chango or Montante do.

Yeah but ws frequency is not always the most efficient. It depends how much your ws damage scale with tp and how high damage it does at 1000tp and lastly how much white damage you do. For example with MNK without impetus you will do more dps with holding tp and WS for more.

In big simplification

If you do 20k WS after 2 tp rounds and you do 6k white damage in tp round that takes 1.5sec and you need to make 3 more tp rounds to ws for 45k then you option is:
2 rounds and ws for 20k. Total time 5sec, total damage 32k. Dps 6400
5 rounds and ws for 45k. Total time 9.5 sec, total damage 75k. Dps 7894

after 36 neak on war. 12 with raetic, 12 with chango, 12 with shining one. Had chango and raetic both comfortably ahead of shining one. on war fired impulse drive at around 1250. had warcry up for every fight with impulse. Did not have warcry up for every fight with chango or raetic. did not include SC damage. if i did, chango was massively ahead of the other options.

Had rostam corx2, geo bard whm war.
SAM misers fighters rogues for shining one. HM VM attack acc. Etc.

On sam doing the same thing. 12 doji 12 masa and 12 shining one. Had masa nad doji beating shining one comfortably at r0, but it was a little bit closer. fired impulse on sam at 2k average. (found that if you wait much longer DPS drops heavily)
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By Spaitin 2019-03-17 19:29:28
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Quote:
My own testing has Chango being stronger then Shining One due to sheer WS frequency. Remember it's not about WS average it's about total WS damage and ID suffers from low WS TP return (misers helps a ton here) and not having Store TP on it like Chango or Montante do.

I suspected this would be the case when people had enough time to test it. Shining one feels extraordinarily competitive for the amount of effort it takes to get, just like most of the other ambu weapons. I think they all fall just a smidge short of full REMA though. Very close, but not quite the best. That was clearly S-E's intent with them and I think they got it right on all counts, and I'm impressed that they all feel so well placed. There's a strong correlation with the shining one's general playstyle and my thief's. You can weaponskill more often at close to 1k, but to really get the most of it it feels like you want to go at closer to 2k. So there's a tradeoff between weaponskill frequency and weaponskill power. That's kind of like twashter with SA and TA, but the difference is in the white damage. I think S-E really hit the nail on the head with all these weapons. The time/reward ratio feels really good.
i actually find these to be the most balanced weapons that SE has ever released. they are everything the Dynamis weapons should have been. cant decide if I am going to make staff or h2h for my third one.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-03-17 19:58:36
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Quote:
i actually find these to be the most balanced weapons that SE has ever released. they are everything the Dynamis weapons should have been. cant decide if I am going to make staff or h2h for my third one.

I couldn't agree more. None of the new weapons are actually breaking the game, and each of the jobs has a superior REMA alternative. The lack of aftermath coupled with the unique quirks of each weapon places their power level just under an REMA. But the gap is so close that it doesn't feel bad at all to pick one up and start hacking away at content on a job you're new to. They provide an alternative to grinding for half a year or more for a finished REMA, and you can finish the 4th stage in an hour or two. The fourth stage is actually really good too, so the jump to the fifth stage doesn't feel terribly misplaced when you consider the whole of it. In the worst case scenario it's 50 mil, but that's still a drop in the bucket compared to what a REMA would set you back. So they give us options. We're still free to finish our REMA's if we want to, and that provides an avenue for further progression beyond the ambu's. And it also doesn't alienate the people who already went through the grind, which is important and a wise move on s-e's part. That happened once in adoulin and it stirred outrage galore. It's refreshing to see them avoid the same mistake, while still delivering content that feels solid and is something people can genuinely be existed about completing.

All in all, these ambu weapons are one of the most balanced sets of toys they've ever developed. They're pretty fantastic all around.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-03-17 20:05:32
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Yeah, not really. h2h is still bayad, not really surprising. scythe staff and bow(actually used as a bow, not an macc piece) pretty weak.

kt and gkt are "ok" Grips cool, not worth a pulse weapon though. Probably put the GS in the "ok" category too.
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By Spaitin 2019-03-17 20:16:45
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Yeah, not really. h2h is still bayad, not really surprising. scythe staff and bow(actually used as a bow, not an macc piece) pretty weak.

kt and gkt are "ok" Grips cool, not worth a pulse weapon though. Probably put the GS in the "ok" category too.
what set of toys do you think were more balanced ?
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-03-17 20:23:24
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Balance and ffxi cannot co-exist in the same sentence

There isn't even a marksmanship option, so if you want to get technical it's disqualified from being balanced.
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By Afania 2019-03-18 00:02:50
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Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Quote:
i actually find these to be the most balanced weapons that SE has ever released. they are everything the Dynamis weapons should have been. cant decide if I am going to make staff or h2h for my third one.

I couldn't agree more. None of the new weapons are actually breaking the game, and each of the jobs has a superior REMA alternative. The lack of aftermath coupled with the unique quirks of each weapon places their power level just under an REMA. But the gap is so close that it doesn't feel bad at all to pick one up and start hacking away at content on a job you're new to. They provide an alternative to grinding for half a year or more for a finished REMA, and you can finish the 4th stage in an hour or two. The fourth stage is actually really good too, so the jump to the fifth stage doesn't feel terribly misplaced when you consider the whole of it. In the worst case scenario it's 50 mil, but that's still a drop in the bucket compared to what a REMA would set you back. So they give us options. We're still free to finish our REMA's if we want to, and that provides an avenue for further progression beyond the ambu's. And it also doesn't alienate the people who already went through the grind, which is important and a wise move on s-e's part. That happened once in adoulin and it stirred outrage galore. It's refreshing to see them avoid the same mistake, while still delivering content that feels solid and is something people can genuinely be existed about completing.

All in all, these ambu weapons are one of the most balanced sets of toys they've ever developed. They're pretty fantastic all around.

This. All the new builds available from Kaja weapons made the game a lot more fun to play with imo. And none of them really make r15 REMA obsolete.

Serious players will get them all, casual players get to compete with minimum effort. Win win imo.
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 Asura.Snapster
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By Asura.Snapster 2019-03-18 11:55:32
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Taint said: »
(Delay1 + Delay2) × (1 - Dual Wield %) ÷ 2 = New Delay per Hand

288+276 36%dw = 180.4 delay or 61.1tp

Decimation with 4 extra hits and 25stp in WS set:

20stp for a 12 hit
31stp for a 11 hit

Decimation with 3 extra hits and 25stp in WS set:

21stp for a 12 hit
32stp for a 11 hit

Decimation with 2 extra hits and 25stp in WS set:

23stp for a 12 hit
34stp for a 11 hit

This is an oversimplification. Additional hits can miss, Samurai Roll is a thing (and does not provide a static value), and you get hit by mobs and their AoEs. Your baseline is also off (/NIN instead of /DNC). I would stick to 2 handers when using any kind of x-hit build modeling.
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-03-18 13:11:27
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Anyone mess with the Great Axe yet? I'm just curious with how the TP bonus works. Looks like a nice high accuracy weapon for when it's needed. The Macc is really high too for break ws.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2019-03-18 13:51:21
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Quote:
This is an oversimplification. Additional hits can miss, Samurai Roll is a thing (and does not provide a static value), and you get hit by mobs and their AoEs. Your baseline is also off (/NIN instead of /DNC). I would stick to 2 handers when using any kind of x-hit build modeling.

Trying to model an x-hit build with dual wielded weapons isn't going to translate what you see on paper to what happens in the game very well at all. In addition to what's been said, when you're dual wielding human error and reaction time comes into play and you often end up overshooting your mark and wasting tp at 1300 or 1400 tp fairly frequently just because you're swinging so fast. Also multi attack procs can skew things further, and when you consider that multi attack procs work on both hands during your weaponskill even moreso. The rule of thumb when dual wielding is pretty simple. More sTP and multi attack procs is always better, and always translate to higher weaponskill frequency. When you're swinging a pair of weapons with already low delay under a capped delay reduction situation, getting random multi attack procs both during TP phase and with the weaponskill itself, getting random increases to TP whenever mobs hit you, and then if you throw samurai roll in there and factor in human error a dual wield "x" hit just goes out the window.
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