Jesus?

It's ironic that my own personal feelings about religion have led me down this road of wanting to better understand and process the phenomena (beyond the monotheisms even) further than some self-proclaimed theists typically entertain. The history behind much of it is fascinating.

I figure that the more information that becomes available to me, the better arguments I can form and the more able I am to discuss topics in a manner that avoids descending into petty namecalling and insults.

<jesus> <Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass>

I can totally get behind you there. I have interest in reading each religion's bible from a purely informational standpoint.

I want to know how anyone can blindly believe some stories and so easily dismiss others when neither has any factual support.

It's called faith.

And it doesn't really make sense to some of us.

Me either, I'm an atheist.

"My beliefs do not require them to."
lulz

I had a friend, who I have been friends with for a very long time, turn super christian on me a few months back, like somebody shoved a bible and a cross up his ***, he was trying to tell me the bible is 100% real, and is the word of god etc, I'm like dude, you have no idea do you?

I mean he's never been the brightest crayon in the box, but it still saddens me for him to go so far off the deep end.


edit: now thinking about it, it was him who introduced me to the Final Fantasy line, without him I would be a very different person than I am today, and I would have probably never ended up playing any FF title, including XI, funny how the world works.

/ponders

Jet, you still cherish him as a friend despite your differences in opinion on matters of faith and lack there of, right?

I'm a Christian. I believe Jesus is my Lord and Savior who humbled himself to the level of man, died for the remissions of my sins on a cross, and rose again 3 days later.

The Bible proves Jesus's existence as well as being the son of God. In the Old Testament in which for tells many prophesies of the Messiah in which Jesus fulfilled every last one. The mathematical chances for 1 man to fulfill even just the "main 8" prophesies is 1:100000000000000000000. And for Him to fulfill them all points to Him being the son of God.

Now you might say the Bible isn't a good example of proof since it is the basis of the "religion". Well ok I'll back it up as much as I can with what facts I know.

1. There is more manuscripts of the Bible than any other book in history dating back to its period that's translation or meaning hasn't been lost over time. I.e. The Dead Sea scrolls google them if your interested.

2. If Jesus and Christianity was just one big hoax or the death and resurrection of Jesus was just a lie it wouldn't hold up to this day. People don't just blindly follow something everyone looks at the facts before making any decision. When Jesus rose from the dead in glory there was witnesses. And through those witnesses we have what we call Christianity today. No group of people could come up with such a ridiculous story of someone raising from the dead over 2000 years ago and people not find out it didn't happen or it to be one giant lie from a group of people.

3. Paul(author of most of the New Testament an apostle) stated that if Jesus didn't raise from dead and wasn't the son of God than everything we believe as christians would just be a waste of our lives and why should people get so upset as try to prove us wrong our whole lives. I'm paraphrasing what he said of course.

4. When Jesus rose up to heaven He gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit in which is in me and through it I have felt His presence, seen His face, heard His voice, and gone up to heaven once in a what is commonly known as a "vision" to Christians but an "outer body experience" to everyone else.

This is getting pretty long so I'll stop here for now.

These threads always make me want to post, ugh. Sorry in advance if this offends anybody, but how is any of this "fact"? Especially the bolded part in #2. OMG. Yes, yes they do. Just look...well everywhere. #3 isn't really a fact, just a man's opinion on persecution and people trying to poke holes in the Christian Mythology. #4, well I'm not really sure about #4. That's just your personal account of your religion. By all means, you're entitled to your opinion on your faith, but I'm not sure you can exactly pass it off as "fact", ya know?

Not sure if trolling or not...

1. Do the spider man comics prove spiderman's existence?

2. If you know what the prophecies are, and then you want to claim someone fulfilled them all, it is quite easy to write stories about them being fulfilled.

3. He actually didn't fulfill them all. Or was it that he didn't keep his word about bringing out judgment in their lifetime, I forget.

4. You mean there are more copies of biblical stories written many years after the incidents were supposed to happen and a lack of biblical texts created in the biblical times.

5. Clearly, they do blindly follow something. It's called indoctrination, and if you are a Christian you on some level believe that all other religions are followed blindly.

6. Oh really, there were witnesses. Yet why aren't there any actual records in hundreds of letters by multiple people? Why did no on mention the temple supposedly cracking open when he died, or the dead that were apparently rising from the ground? People mention that stuff. No one did. WHERE WAS GONDOR-- I mean, why didn't anyone mention the earthquake at the time of his death?
   

7. It's easy for a fringe group of people to convince themselves something and convince their children in turn, especially in more primitive times.

8. On point 3, so what? You're playing a huge victim card there and don't make any point at all.

9. You act as though your brain isn't two steps away from the mess it was barely 10,000 years ago when the bridge between the two lobes wasn't fully formed. Quick fact: our brains are relatively fragile and unstable.

10. Feelings offer no rationale proof at all. If they did, then my strong feeling that Jesus never existed and likewise god does not would also be proof. But it's not.

I don't believe in any particular god, but I still respect who does cause, well everyone needs their hope in death and who am I to crush that. I mean once you're dead it doesn't matter to anyone anymore. However, I can't help but think that people that believe in the bible are either ignorant or blindfolded. Christianity like every other religion ever existed used legends and metaphores, I don't know why so many religious people don't grasp this simple concept. To cite an example Adam&Eve fairytail is not how the world started, it's a bloody metaphore about sin, a legend to pass a teaching, why do people take it literally is beyond me. Feel free to believe in a god or in the presence of souls, but the bible, from beginning to end, is just a book of stories with a lot of morals.

I hear where your coming from I realize I don't have all the answers. Because just as there's theologians proving Christianity is true there's just as my people proving its not true. Anyway, I'd reccomend anyone who has doubts or questions that Jesus existed or is the son of God to pick up the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. Compelling story of a man who was investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune who's wife became saved and wanted to search out the facts behind Christianty and ending up finding it to be true.

One thing that I can state as truth though is that it's your choice whether or not you believe or want to believe that God exists. I mean if you think about it. What do you lose if you do believe in God and you die and he turns out not to exist? I'm not saying there's any doubt in my mind He doesn't I'm just saying seek out a church maybe one that friend of yours keeps asking you to come to and see for yourself. I find that 50% of the people who try to prove God doesn't exist has never been to a church. And the other 50% went to a church in their past and somehow strayed away.

I most certainly and undoubtedly know Jesus exsits and He is the way, the truth, and the life.

Anyhow...I don't know why I join in on these conversations, but I identify myself as an agnostic-theist. (No, I don't want people to start ripping on agnostics again. It's not about "sitting on the fence".) It's about people being happy with their personal beliefs regardless of what they are.

Yes, there are many untruths that we were handed down over the span of centuries upon centuries, but I will never flat out say that religion as a whole is a "bad" thing, because despite my qualms with organized religion I have seen a community of people help one another. If they refuse evolution or the idea that immaculate conception is laughable (and it's laughable to me in the biological sense), that's fine, as long as people are happy.

No, I don't enjoy being wrangled into matters of faith. I think it's obnoxious to talk about amongst others in public for the pure fact that it will alienate people. Sometimes all you can do is smile and nod, and that route is so much more positive than taking either side when you, yourself, have no idea. I honestly see both sides as cynical and abrasive at times.

You can't fault people who think the idea of loving one another and having redemption is a bad thing though. I don't care if Shiva is going to destroy the world tomorrow or if Jesus himself is coming back. Some of us just want people to take comfort in what they have, and whether it's right or wrong is not for anyone else to determine but themselves.

I'd never recommend anyone to go to church. If you want to believe do it in your private. The amount of *** coming out of the Vatican is astounding. Not even going on the exploiting of people.
Yes good priests who actually believe what they're doing exist, but they're maybe half of them all.

This statement bothers me a lot. There is no proof (to my knowledge) that any "God" exists. This thread is gonna just give me a colossal headache because it's going to go in massive circles (if it hasn't already. I honestly didn't backread the entire thing), so I'm just going to bow out here. Fair thee well folks.

Because if Adam and Eve is a fairytale, Jesus becomes irrelevant.

Anyone recall what Jesus' whole sacrifice was about?

Oh my god he Pascal Wagered us.

I'm out after the Jesus bit is answered.

everybody's sinning! (spoilered for offensive)

Also, on this note...

The Bible is honestly a pretty shitty source of morals, all things considered. The Old Testament details God as a nasty, tiny brute who is jealous and petty and commits genocide and slaughter on a whim, who curses humans for being faulty despite designing them that way.

The New Testament brings in the concept that you will never be as good as this one being that supposedly came down. You will never be that perfect. You're worthless without him. You go to hell if he's not in your heart.

It's a really toxic book, tbh.

The particular bit that Jesus died for was to cleanse us of original sin.

If you take out Adam and Eve, we no longer have original sin. Ergo, Jesus was rather pointless. The whole thing falls apart if you take out Adam and Eve.

What do you lose if you believe the government is out to get you? Technically, nothing - but you live your life in a way that you wouldn't normally have lived it. Assuming it's good or bad does nothing to prove your point, either. Take a step back and place yourself into another situation; place yourself into the church of Scientology, and for just a moment make believe that's what you feel is true. If you lived your life by that dogma instead of your current one, what would you lose? Mormonism, Jehovah Witnesses, Judaism, Islam, Rastafari, Mandaean, Sabian, Ayyavazhi, Bhakti, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mithraism, Mazdakism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, Taoism, Confucianism, the list can go on and on and on and on and on. Every person who has placed a stake in religion has made a bet, and the numbers are stacked against them. If there is no god, you "lose" nothing (Though I earnestly feel you would pose to gain more than lose.). If one of earth's religion is true, and it's not yours, you pose to lose an eternity of happiness with those you love and suffer an infinite amount of deaths for a finite transgression.

Pretty strong worded response there lol. But ok.

1. No, but the events of the Bible have proven and are still being proven to this day. Recently as I stated before the dead sea scrolls were found in which were written a 1000 years before the birth of Jesus and have been carbon dated.

2. Good point however the time in which the prophesies were written and the birth of Jesus were 1000s of years apart so no. It's not like Jesus lived, did stuff, someone wrote them down and called them prophesies.

3. We're both correct in this part. Jesus fulfilled many of the 100s of prophesies written about Him as the messiah. But there is some He will fulfill in His second coming in which we are waiting for called the rapture. I.e. the passing of judgement and taking all who believe in Him up to heaven.

4. Your wrong here. There is more original manuscripts of the Bible that exist than any other book in hiatory including Homer's the Oddessy and Illiad which is dated around the time of the Bew Testamanet therefore not as old as the Old testament.

5. In a sense yes and no. But ultimately there has to of been something said to them that made them believe that it was true because it made sense to them. As a Christian I know it is the truth because I personally know. No one told me it was I found out for myself. Kinda hard to explain this answer so I'm gonna just go on to the next.

6. The records you seek are in the Bible no? You state no one recorded these events yet the Bible does. It's not like we can "pics or it didn't happen." the times of the Bible back then. Let's look at the Oddessy. For it is the oldest text to my knowledge aside from the Bible's manuscripts. We know it was written in ancient Greece by a man by the name of Homer. Yet there is no records of Homer ever existing but yet we credit Him for writing the story no? The Bible recorded the life of Jesus yet people say he didnt exsist. Does that make any sense?

Where are those events proven?

The gospels were written 30-50 years+ after his death. It is very easy to say "Oh hey, this ***was supposed to happen and we're a cult, so we're gonna say it happened."

See above.

That point literally means nothing without ample secondary sources.

This also doesn't mean anything.

When JFK was shot, the world had millions of newspapers printed. Before that, when Marie Antoinette was killed, there were records, letters, the world went wild.

Before that, when Rome was sacked by the Gothes or whatnot, there were letters and records of it. There were depictions.

Before that, when Muhammad claimed his whole shindig, there were records and letters of it. All of this had happened as the events were going on.

When the great palace of Constantinople burned in 400 AD, same ***.

In 0-50 AD, no one spoke a ***about the Messiah coming to town. No one mentioned it until some dudes started writing Gospels.

Seems kind of fishy.

I'm tired, and it's really late. Someone else will take over where I got sloppy.

Um. The Odyssey was written in the 8th Century BC. The Old Testament was written between 1400 and 400 BC, but its formal beginnings were in the 7th century. More, The Epic of Gilgamesh is just under two-thousand years older than the Odyssey.

Well, pfft...If Dante's idea of Hell is real I'll be floating somewhere around the second, but at least I'll have some stories to swap while I'm being cast to and fro by those winds. :)

I'll remember to bring a scarf too when I die. Wouldn't want to pass eternity with a sore throat with all those gusts!