Jesus?

When we speak solely of the beliving in one or more gods and souls that will keep on existing after death, bringing the meaning of existance into a more spiritual level, I think that's a perfectly reasonable behaviour, far from illogical. Just change the word faith with hope. Cause even if not believing in anything is my own view of life, it's a rather depressing cinical point of view. Hope is probably one of the most logical of human feelings.
Imho.

I can't agree with agnostics being fence-sitters. I'm atheist, I think. I don't believe there are any gods. Or Santa Claus, or fairies, or mermaids, or what have you. I don't even believe that there might be these things. But can I prove to you beyond any doubt whatsoever that there are no fairies or mermaids? Well, no. Just because I don't believe in them doesn't mean that I can prove they aren't there. It just means I don't believe in them.

It's the same with god for me. No, I don't believe in him. Yes, I think the whole story is hogwash. No, I can't 100% prove it. So doesn't that make me agnostic? I can't prove there's not a pitcher of kool-aid floating over the rings of Saturn, either. That doesn't mean I believe there is a pitcher of kool-aid there. That's silly. It just means I can't prove there's not.

I mean, I might just not understand the terms completely. Mostly I just say I'm non-religious, in that I don't believe it and don't really want anything to do with it. But it seems to me that admitting that I can't prove there's nothing out there (even though it's not my problem to prove it and I have no need to prove it >.>) would make me agnostic.

I probably don't make any sense with this and I'm not concerned enough about it to go pick out every single little difference in the different terms to describe people who don't believe in god. But it just seems like agnostics for the most part say "No I don't believe, but I can't prove it." That doesn't seem like fence sitting to me.

Edit: I really agree with what Xueye said earlier-- I consider my (non)-belief system to just be the dismissal of claims of a deity. I just dismiss it altogether.

what you just described there sir is atheism, that's the thing.

@Flavin: I disagree with your points.





considering people are born as atheists, no it wouldn't make sense to make that claim, nor do I recall every making it, you're incorrectly assuming.

People who are religious are definitely capable of logical thought, however fail to use it, it's not a matter of "seeing things differently."

We're all agnostic. Some group of people wanted a third option and hijacked the word. Agnostic just means you acknowledge that it isn't possible to know whether a deity does or doesn't exist. I don't know isn't a real answer to a question about belief. How does someone not know if they believe or not?

the thing is that the term "agnostic" means "without knowledge" which everyone is agnostic, I just merely said that those who describe themselves as it are people who have some sort of superiority complex and or don't understand the meaning of the words they use.

If one doesn't believe in a god, then they are an atheist, if one doesn't have knowledge of a god then they are agnostic, last I checked, nobody knows for certain that a god exists, with proof etc.

(in other words atheism has nothing to do with knowledge, agnosticism has nothing to do with beliefs, they're different concepts and words).

First, I am asserting that your point of view has not evolved. You are spouting the same argument you were 2 years ago about logic.

Second, it is absolutely about seeing things differently, and you are generalizing again.

I almost would go as far as it's a conspiracy by the religious groups to further separate the rest of us to maintain power,

then you lack severe reading comprehension as I've already told you that is not what I'm saying, and don't understand anything I say or the world around you.

It has nothing to do with about seeing things differently, it has to do with seeing reality, you sir do not.

It's almost funny that most of the people who call themselves agnostic are actually atheists.

Please, no more sarcasm tag. It's so ugly I could die.

aww but I like it, I don't want people to confuse more things I say with things I didn't say, and I don't want you to die, /comfort

I got into a debate once over a table at the local ihop here.
It basically came down to the conclusion with some good points on both sides that we don't have a *** clue whats really out there besides the things that we can see and observe/study here with our own eyes and still we discover new ***on a near daily basis.
for example, we know that with the universe that we can observe, everything obeys the law of physics/science but we don't know if there's a place out there where the laws change in which its a contradiction to our own. for example of something that could break our system based around science is magic! just cuz we can't do "real magic" doesn't mean that it isn't possible that there is some individual or thing out there in the universe that can do true magic. or whatever.

/shrug
call me foolish or w/e lol but I think that if we can imagine something then there's a chance that we can find something like it somewhere out there.
but yeah. either we're all stupid when we were talking or we were just too into the pancakes and just bullshitting our way to pass the time while we eat

meh, believing in things without evidence is still illogical, and that's the bottom line.

I even have certain beliefs that are illogical, but I realize they are and openly admit that they are, but I rarely speak of them. (have to do with universal origins, and an abstract of quantum physics).

I see reality perfectly fine, thank you. I am a very productive member of society who fights for my rights and yours. In fact, probably the only thing that really differentiates the 2 of us is religion (or lack thereof). I don't see how you can say someone is out of touch with reality based on one aspect of their life. You choose to pass judgement over people based on one subject and one subject only. That is being out of touch with reality.

Also, I can read just fine. Maybe your statements need to be a little clearer and not smashed out on a keyboard blindly.

Most of us acknowledge the possibility of some kind of deity existing because we haven't proved it doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean I'm going to believe in it either. You can be an atheist and be open minded.

Apparently you don't do either, especially considered I said what I meant rather bluntly and you still managed to not comprehend it.

As for the 1 part of life, if that part of life is their ability to think rationally, then yes that can compromise the whole deal.

hope this isn't turning into a philosophy vs religion debate now lol, cuz that argument has been ongoing for 1000 years

That should be your slogan Jet... "don't comment on what I say unless you agree with me otherwhise you were unable to comprehend it... I suggest you improve your reading comprehension."

But that is where you are wrong. You claim I don't see reality because I don't see things the way you see them. Are you so arrogant that you think only your perception of reality is correct?

Edit: spelling

considering they're arguments of logic, based on premises that are true, then yes if you weren't able to follow you need to check your comprehension level, I guess a lot of people still need to work on their reasoning abilities, but in his case he blatantly ignored what I said.

not just mine, others perceive it just as well, you apparently don't though.

not sure how one goes about correcting that though, may not be your fault.

Not trying to contradict or argue without hearing exactly you're thoughts on quantum physics, but I don't think quantum physics is illogical.

Counter intuitive yes, but it is reality so therefore must be logical. We just have to adjust our understanding of what is logical to encompass the events that occur at the quantum level.

hence why I said an abstract, and idk I may be right about my opinion, I like to think I am on it, but I realize I have no proof on it, which was the point of bringing it up, not trying to say quantum physics is by any means not how it is, but my limited understanding of it, and my own thoughts on it are probably not accurate.


(understand?)

You know I typed up a long reply to further explain my stance, but then I just figured why bother. It's not like you're going to go "oh I see where you're coming from now."

Oh, I see you're clinging to that one sentence. That is still not atheism though..


Just because I don't believe in some/certain gods, doesn't mean I don't believe in any. Even if you are correct and I am technically an atheist (which I'm not agreeing to) your reasoning is still flawed.

Based on what? You mostly just go around making statements without backing anything up really... ever... you just tell people that you're too busy or not in the mood to educate them and they should do that themselves lol...

Your point of view that anyone involved in religion is therefore compromised in rational thought has no basis in study and is a wild claim to make... If having an illogical thought was all that was need to compromise one's ability to think rationally then we would all be screwed... I have no valid science behind this next comment but I would wager heavily that there is no human on this earth that has not thought illogically...

Besides that... lets say that you your whole life have thought logically and maybe a few negligble illogical thoughts here and there in the name of science no less! Where has it gotten you?

Even then I barely know you and off the top of my head I can think of a few illogical choices you've made... Has your ability to think rationally been compromised? or is that only reserved for those that believe in religion?

that definition is incorrect sir.


as discussed numerous times, or would you care to explain how a word founded in the meaning of "beliefs" has anything to do with a positive or negative assertion of knowledge?

You're an atheist regardless of how you word it. You can call yourself agnostic, but in the end, you're still an agnostic atheist. I only call myself an atheist because calling myself an agnostic atheist is redundant. How can someone truly be gnostic if they can't prove it?

I edited my post.

Perception is very difficult to discuss. Everyone's is different for obvious reasons, however, when we all reach different conclusions on what reality is based off those perceptions it merits discussion to figure out the issue.

As someone who believed in god at a younger age, but has since rejected those beliefs, I personally find it extremely difficult to understand how people that try to be intellectually honest with themselves can continue to believe.

Once I began to force myself to view things outside of a religious perspective I simply could not accept the premises that religious belief puts forth.

I usually am too busy, and others do a much better job, or it has been posted before.

Anyone who clings to irrational thought is compromised to rational thought, how is that a bold claim to make?

or are you trying to state that there's a rational reason to believe things without proof?

That's a very loaded question, but among other things it has brought me a sense of place, and the skills necessary to do what I can do and will be doing in the future.

There's a difference between making a few poor choices and spending your life devoted to irrationality, and like I said earlier religion is only the extension of the acceptance of illogical thought, but you and somebody else keep forgetting that I said that, claiming that you didn't understand etc.