Mujin Obi Question

There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on this and I'd really like help clarifying this. I can't exactly test it cause I have a lot of disadvantages playing on my xbox and calculating difference. But I guess this is a simple question to start then compile rest of the data on it.

"Enhances avatar attack"

There isn't much to go by that I've seen but I was initially under the impression this increases only physical attacks, but considering it doesn't explicitly say so, does this work on magical blood pacts as well?

Diabolos's Rope and Full +2 is win on smn atm. Dont think this gets close to that in terms of damage boost.

Avatar attack testing

Well worth the read if you haven't yet, starts a bit down the page.

Very likely "enhances avatar attack" is the same as on previous pieces, so only increases physical attack not magic, but that's what caller's sash is for.

Eyeballing it since I got mine, it's an attack boost only for Physical Blood Pacts like all "Enhances Avatar Attack" gear. The item page says 10%, but never bothered to test it personally.
In regards to Diabolos's Rope, that will do nothing to enhance Blood Pact damage directly. The only way it enhances damage is with the 3% chance to proc Blood Boon, and then you have the proc rate on the AF3 set to worry about. If the 10% increase on the AH page is true, Diabolos's rope comes no where close in terms of damage over time. BPing in full AF3 for both physical and magical attacks is not the best option, you'd be better off using a max & match set.

Current Physical BP Set:

Shareeravadi: Pet:Attack+20
Ruby Earring: Pet:Attack+5
Shadow Trews: Pet:Attack+10 Pet: Crit.Hit Rate+2%

Its not, and it wouldn't matter if it was. There's a very good chance that Diabolos's Rope would still be better.

You're also in no position to be telling anyone that full AF3 isn't the best option. Both critical hit rate and additional avatar attack are laughable increases.

Unless I'm mistaken, it was shown that the Augmented Blood Boon set bonus and regular Blood Boon were independent processes, so wearing Diabolos' Rope probably doesn't increase the chance of an AF3+2 set proc.

So, if you aren't having MP issues, Mujin Obi is the best waist slot.

Was it? That seems incredibly odd. Does that suggest that Blood Boon has an X% chance to proc on its own, in addition an X% chance to proc with the bonus?

Yeah, check the bgwiki pase for the smn set for a testing link. It seems to be the same for the war set.

Well ***, that changes a lot. It seems I no longer have an excuse for not having a magian staff for BP.

It doesn't really change AF3 being the most likely optimal option for its slots, though.

u realise u dont need all pieces of +2 gear on to get a set proc, it starts to proc after u have two pieces on, and its still a pathetic proc rate either way, full +2 is merely a lazy option for gearing, u will never maximise damage with it

Number of AF3+2 pieces affects proc rate. It's probably either:
1% -> 2% -> 3.5% -> 5%
or
2% -> 4% -> 7% -> 10%

for the summoner set. The WAR set likely caps out at 10% but procs after Double Attack. Assuming the summoner set is the same, wearing extra Blood Boon gear will actually lower your set proc rate. You'd be looking at a ~7.5% proc rate with 5/5 set +2 and no extra Blood Boon in gear, assuming the second progression is correct.

Overall, I figure that awesomely augmented Shadow/Valk Trews are likely the best leg BP option for physical BPs. I still have an abjuration for them in storage, but I'm in no rush to uncurse/augment it considering what a minor upgrade it is from just wearing AF3+2. It's pretty disgusting how little most equipment matters for blood pact damage.

Given that critical hit rate doesn't increase the upper pDIF limit for BP, and that increasing avatar attack does virtually nothing, I have no reason to believe that a small increase in set proc won't ultimately be the best choice for maximizing damage.

The fact that augmenting a pair of trews will create an unstorable piece of equipment doesn't help the matter.

Byrth, you wouldn't happen to know of any in-depth avatar BP/melee accuracy testing, would you? I've always assumed that despite favorable conditions regarding level correction, adding as much accuracy as possible would yield the best results for BP damage on higher level targets. For example, using a magian accuracy staff instead of attack staff.

And you're parroting a sentiment based on absolutely no data. I'd rather be lazy than irrationally impressionable.

You are misinterpreting some of the data there. Crits do increase BP pdif always. They do not increase melee pdif against ratio capped targets.

My impression is that capping acc still is not that hard on most targets.

dont interpret my concise post with that of someone who makes assumptions based on nothing, i actually pay attention to testing and try out different gear before blindly assuming things, unlike ur assessment of me which was made with blind assumption, and ur idea of the more accuracy the better is redundant, if u hit the acc cap more accuracy will do absolutely nothing, and its not massively hard to hit the acc cap, and if ur argument for not augmentting a piece of gear is that it makes it unstorable...well enuff said, but as always everyone is entitled to play how they want with what they want

IIRC, the pDIF ceiling for avatars is static, and completely unaffected by critical hits. Obviously a crit. will increase your pDIF, but with such high pDIF natively, and an impassable barrier slightly above it, there's very little to gain.

Show me the data on set proc activation, set proc average returns, and the average increase granted by things you would be swapping out of your visible equipment.

Unless you can do that, you're basing your "full AF3 is lazy" assertion off of absolutely nothing.

And I'm aware that an accuracy cap exists. I've never seen any testing to indicate that we're always hitting it on high level targets.

apologies for wall of text

while only rough testing, while doing trials for staves i noticed only 1-2 set procs out of every 100 or so mobs, the % proc will be variable either way as a %proc of a %proc means the actual process rate is very low and quite unpredictable when using low number batches, so just a rough bit of math, if u take the middle blood boon proc dmg increase of a 1.75 multiplier and say that BPs do 1000 for sake of argument and easy math, out of 100 mobs u will do on average 101,500 dmg (100x1000dmg with a 2% proc of an extra 750 dmg), now lets say with some tweaking of gear u get an extra 50 dmg out of ur BPs, yes its less epeen but on average u would be doing 105,000 dmg (100x1050dmg) and thats not even taking into consideration the fact that u will still get the odd set proc adding to ur total dot, so really it all boils down to an argument of epeen damage compared to dot damage, epeen looks nicer, but dot will always be more useful when fighting anything of any significance, but like i said this is just rough math based off what i've seen when playing around, in order to make a better assessment more testing would be needed, but needless to say from experience with other af3v2 set procs such as blm its not going to maximise ur output as much as using mix+match gear that maximises consistent damage output to give u a higher overall dot

I don't feel the need to expand upon the fact that nothing you've done is based on anything short of eyeballing.

And your comparison is flawed; a BLM can add xINT or xMAB and come up with a reasonably precise explanation for why mix-n-match is superior to full AF3. You will never have data to show any change in BP damage based on the equipment you're suggesting within a reasonable margin of error. Ever. Hell, we even know why you'll never have that data. Its well documented, and in and of itself suggests that what I'm saying is more reasonable than what you're saying. Can I currently support a full-AF3 approach with conclusive supporting evidence? Nope, but just as is the case with a lot of things, just because there is a chance that both are possible, doesn't mean they're on remotely even footing in terms of likelihood.

Using 5/5 SMN AF3 is just as bad as TPing in full AF3 for NIN.

Prove it.

You can find discussions about SMN AF3 in alot of places. Here is an example. The set gives roughly a 5% chance of augmented blood boon which cannot be adjusted with blood boon gear. AF3 Hands (and arguably AF3 feet) do nothing for magical, and AF3 legs/feet do nothing for physical. A little mix and match will do better for overall damage.

Ninja Chainmail +1.

I win.

Source quantifiable data supporting this.

Protip: I already know it doesn't exist

Where's the concrete math to prove you're right about full AF3?

Reading is hard.

We have plenty of concrete data to show that the equipment you're suggesting does virtually nothing in practice, and I'm comfortable basing my assertion off that.

So you can't prove something, the same problem someone else is having with a different argument. But yet, you're correct and he's wrong?

Hmm.

Far from true. Chainmail is not always the best NIN TP body.

Practically speaking, the difference between 5/5 and mix/match for NIN is pretty small... Generally no more than ~5% for stock builds, sometimes slightly higher for maxed builds, potentially less depending on buffs and hitrate. So really, what you're saying is that it's not that bad even if you are correct, and you have no data to back up your claims. I suggest you review your position before continuing and bear in mind the fact that Minjo is not asserting 5/5 as unquestionably superior, only as an acceptable and likely superior option given what information we do have.

He can easily prove that they're wrong. Fact of the matter is he can't prove he's right, but given what we already know it's a sound assumption to say that 5/5 Emp is likely superior to mixing in other pieces due to the (poor) way that Blood pacts work.

Let's assume a 5% proc rate on the emp effect with all five pieces. This is by no means the actual proc rate, just a fabrication. Now let's assume 25% Blood Boon activation rate, +10% from pants+2. Again, fabricated, but might be accurate basing it off of Conserve MP (if there's data out there on proc rate, then ignore this and plug in the real number).

35% chance of activation, with a 5% chance of that activation supplying extra damage (minimum of a 50% increase). Statistically this looks to be around 1.75~3% chance of the effect activating overall, so let's say an average chance of 2.25% or so.

2.25% chance of 50%, 75%, or 100% extra damage

vs.

10~50 (unsure on what relic feet give tbh) attack and 2% critical hit rate on blood pacts that benefit very little from these stats, almost not at all from the attack.

Both are marginal differences, however I'll take the 2.25% chance to increase my damage by a very substantial amount over the 100% chance of adding minimal to no damage to my blood pacts.

Keep in mind that the emp proc effect could be higher, around 10% as was previously mentioned in this thread, which increases the chances of a proc to around 3.5~5%.

From what Byrth said it sounds like set bonus is independent of Blood Boon and actually procs after it, so with a 10% procrate and 35% Blood Boon procrate you'd see a 6.5% activation rate given your figures.