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RDM Job Manifesto
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-08-15 13:04:41
Fenrir.Niniann said: SAM, MNK, NIN/DRK, DRK/NIN were all tanks. RDM back before they nerfed it, or after nerf with only SMNs. And BRD back when Mazurka was a hate tool. I think I covered everything.
No only PLD.
If you didn't have a PLD you died. DD couldn't tank at all
THEY LIKE ALWAYS DIED
 Fenrir.Niniann
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 13:06:12
Shiva.Flionheart said: No only PLD.
If you didn't have a PLD you died. DD couldn't tank at all
THEY LIKE ALWAYS DIED
GET SOME GARUDA ROTATIONS IN THERE, WE NEED BLIIIIINKKKK!
[+]
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2269
By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-15 13:06:17
Shiva.Flionheart said: Fenrir.Niniann said: SAM, MNK, NIN/DRK, DRK/NIN were all tanks. RDM back before they nerfed it, or after nerf with only SMNs. And BRD back when Mazurka was a hate tool. I think I covered everything.
No only PLD.
If you didn't have a PLD you died. DD couldn't tank at all dood, hurricane wing was srs bns
Server: Cerberus
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-15 13:06:46
Fenrir.Niniann said: Shiva.Flionheart said: No only PLD.
If you didn't have a PLD you died. DD couldn't tank at all
THEY LIKE ALWAYS DIED
GET SOME GARUDA ROTATIONS IN THERE, WE NEED BLIIIIINKKKK! DON'T FORGET TO USE ODIN AT THE START TO TAKE DOWN ITS HPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-08-15 13:07:27
I guess you'd need a PLD if you back tanked Fafnir or something
Fenrir.Niniann
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 13:08:14
Shiva.Flionheart said: I guess you'd need a PLD if you back tanked Fafnir or something
DRK/NIN would do it better, or RDM pre-nerf. BLU could probably hold hate better at 75 too.
Sylph.Kiaru
Server: Sylph
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Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 13:08:33
A PLD wasn't the optimal tank, but that's the point. The "BEST" jobs for the situation weren't required, you could still get by PERFECTLY FINE and do just as well/almost as fast without the most optimal job listing.
A RDM or SCH LITERALLY(I mean *** literally) cannot mainheal a LOT of NM's, especially heroes ones and even some scars. No cure5, no dice.
A lot of melee jobs CANNOT proc reds, therefor are a waste of a slot if trying to replace a NIN or WAR.
A SCH and RDM cannot proc -ga's or AM's, therefor are a waste of a slot(if trying to replace a BLM, idk why a RDM would ever replace a BLM but a SCH could @ 75)
THIS IS THE PROBLEM. No matter your skill, no matter your gear, I don't give a *** if you're avesta, you're not doing ***. Level WHM on your main, mule, bot a WHM or gtfo.
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-08-15 13:09:11
Phoenix.Fondue said: Shiva.Flionheart said: Fenrir.Niniann said: SAM, MNK, NIN/DRK, DRK/NIN were all tanks. RDM back before they nerfed it, or after nerf with only SMNs. And BRD back when Mazurka was a hate tool. I think I covered everything.
No only PLD.
If you didn't have a PLD you died. DD couldn't tank at all
THEY LIKE ALWAYS DIED
trying too hard 
Fenrir.Niniann
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 13:10:02
Sylph.Kiaru said: A PLD wasn't the optimal tank, but that's the point. The "BEST" jobs for the situation weren't required, you could still get by PERFECTLY FINE and do just as well/almost as fast without the most optimal job listing.
Having the most optimal tank allows you to bring less people and push the limits of the situation though. That's how we were able to lowman Omega/Ultima etc back in the day.
Server: Shiva
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Posts: 23653
By Shiva.Flionheart 2011-08-15 13:10:43
Sylph.Kiaru said: A PLD wasn't the optimal tank, but that's the point. The "BEST" jobs for the situation weren't required, you could still get by PERFECTLY FINE and do just as well/almost as fast without the most optimal job listing.
A RDM or SCH LITERALLY(I mean *** literally) cannot mainheal a LOT of NM's, especially heroes ones and even some scars. No cure5, no dice.
A lot of melee jobs CANNOT proc reds, therefor are a waste of a slot if trying to replace a NIN or WAR.
A SCH and RDM cannot proc -ga's or AM's, therefor are a waste of a slot(if trying to replace a BLM, idk why a RDM would ever replace a BLM but a SCH could @ 75)
But I thought Abyssea was easy mode? Surely you could do anything with anything.
Sylph.Kiaru
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By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 13:13:10
Avesta wouldn't play RDM inside abyssea.
You didn't need to lowman something so hardcore that the tank mattered unless you were trying to prove something, having fun, or pushing your limits. You could just do it the "normal" way and get by with normal jobs. You cannot do that at all anymore.
We're WOW arena status atm, class > skill.
Fenrir.Niniann
Server: Fenrir
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Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 13:13:59
Sylph.Kiaru said: Avesta wouldn't play RDM inside abyssea.
Yeah he does. I've seen him try to solo Turul for hours and he solo'd some Ironclads back at 75. I don't know if he uses atmas though!
Fenrir.Niniann
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 13:14:58
Phoenix.Fondue said: 
implying you could botclaim consistently with a tiny group! aha! checkmaet.
You could if you spread the latencies out, which is exactly what the paid bots do. Nice try, though. It's idiot proof with 50 people though.
Sylph.Kiaru
Server: Sylph
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Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 13:16:09
A person should be measured by their skill and gear, not the classes they pick to level. Do you know how much I hate WHM? It gives me a gigantic boredom headache - if I wasn't dual boxing a NIN with it as well I would flat out refuse to play the job. I understand some people like it, but we shouldn't be forced to play a single job in order to heal in a MMO with 20 *** jobs.
WOW has 4 healers and only like 10 jobs, rift has an entire calling dedicated to healing with multiple healing specs. FF14 has TWO healers and like 6 jobs. FF11 had 3 viable main healers, why are we down to 1 now? Stupid.
Fenrir.Niniann
Server: Fenrir
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Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 13:18:08
Phoenix.Fondue said: more people using a bot correctly = more claims, there is no disputing that
and there are plenty of bots that allow you to set times
Yes, but how is this making PLD look more appealing? I'm pretty sure that was somehow your argument to bringing up HNM botting. Which it's not an argument and I have no clue why you brought it up in the first place >_>;
Sylph.Kiaru
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By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 13:19:31
I already explained the paladin argument it wasn't the best, but it worked FINE. You might as well not even attempt almost all heroes NM's and some scars NM's without a muled/botted/whocaresaslongasitcasts2spellsWHM. This is a major problem.
I WOULD TAKE A BOTTED OR DUAL BOXED WHM OVER AVESTA HEALING ME(assuming he's good at healing, let's just pretend the best SCH or RDM in the universe healing me).
The red/yellow proc system is another problem altogether.
Carbuncle.Tweeek
Server: Carbuncle
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By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-08-15 13:20:27
Sylph.Kiaru said:
A RDM or SCH LITERALLY(I mean *** literally) cannot mainheal a LOT of NM's, especially heroes ones and even some scars. No cure5, no dice.
good, why should they?
A WHM LITERALLY cannot do nuking LITERALLY it can't nuke or inflict much damage LITERALLY it is a support / healing role.
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Sylph.Kiaru
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By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 13:21:06
I guess addeddum: white is just for pretty white books and a game with 20 jobs should only have 1 viable healer.
Lots of other MMO's can function with multiple healers :/
Sylph.Kiaru
Server: Sylph
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By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 13:24:09
SCH too Fondue...light arts(and especially addeddum white) limits you to only T3 nukes with D nuking skill. A WHM has better nuking power than a addedum whited SCH, lol. It also takes too many stratagems to constantly switch back and fourth between roles as a SCH so you either pick "healer" or "nuker", this completely nulls any "lulz whm is only healer" arguments.
WHM should be the best healer, obviously. Second best should be SCH, 3rd best should be RDM, all should be able to main heal. A SCH and RDM should not be equal to a war/whm(inside abyssea) mainhealing, sorry, completely insane.
Fenrir.Niniann
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-08-15 13:26:16
Phoenix.Fondue said: I wasnt trying to say pld was appealing lol but it certainly had a situationally interchangeable place with the other tanks you listed
unlike rdm vs whm now
I guess, but it couldn't even hold hate as well as everything listed. Which in some cases could cause issues. :/ I won't go into discussing it's vastly inferior damage, etc, since people seem to not care how long it takes to kill something.
I agree, RDM's nogood for Abyssea content. But as Tweek said, WHM can't do anything besides support so they should rightfully gain an edge over the other classes. WHM was completely useless at 75 cap.
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-15 13:26:57
Sylph.Kiaru said: SCH too Fondue...light arts(and especially addeddum white) limits you to only T3 nukes with D nuking skill. A WHM has better nuking power than a addedum whited SCH, lol. It also takes too many stratagems to constantly switch back and fourth between roles as a SCH so you either pick "healer" or "nuker", this completely nulls any "lulz whm is only healer" arguments. You don't play with very many good sch's huh?
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Carbuncle.Tweeek
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Posts: 732
By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-08-15 13:27:24
Sylph.Kiaru said: I guess addeddum: white is just for pretty white books and a game with 20 jobs should only have 1 viable healer.
Lots of other MMO's can function with multiple healers :/
Just because they can help doesn't mean they should be able to main heal everything.. if you give cure V to SCH and RDM why stop there why not give a massive amount of nuking spells to WHM? Then we will have "choices" in what we pick right?
Also you're acting like this concept of class > skill/gear is new. It's been this way since XI launch there was always and will always be a best of breed and worst of breed look at how the DD ranks have changed over the years.
Why do you play a game and put so much time, money and effort into something you seem to despise?
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By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-08-15 13:28:12
Fenrir.Niniann said: Phoenix.Fondue said: I wasnt trying to say pld was appealing lol but it certainly had a situationally interchangeable place with the other tanks you listed
unlike rdm vs whm now
I guess, but it couldn't even hold hate as well as everything listed. Which in some cases could cause issues. :/ I won't go into discussing it's vastly inferior damage, etc, since people seem to not care how long it takes to kill something.
I agree, RDM's nogood for Abyssea content. But as Tweek said, WHM can't do anything besides support so they should rightfully gain an edge over the other classes. WHM was completely useless at 75 cap. hey now, I have my mule roll out on rdm occasionally for phalanx II for charged whisker burns, just cuz constant 0 damage means I can pull the whole *** zone.
Sylph.Kiaru
Server: Sylph
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Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 13:28:51
Quote: WHM was completely useless at 75 cap.
WHM was the best healer after all the /SCH buffs and WHM buffs(esuna afflatus etc). We just didn't notice it because hiding behind shadows as /nin was viable, making RDM a good main healer, and most things didn't have huge AOE damage that ignored shadows. On anything extremely hard with lots of AOE, a RDM was HORRIBLE, rdm's aoe healing was, and still is complete crap, they also couldn't keep up with sponging as well as a WHM could.
I have tons of fun playing FFXI, I just understand that WHM is overpowered and RDM is complete trash(as well as SCH) inside abyssea O_o
Carbuncle.Tweeek
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By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-08-15 13:29:37
If they added a new class for healing then that would be one thing to argue, sure the game can survive with multiple healing classes. But SCH and RDM have many other advantages over WHM why do you think WHM was so obsolete for so long?
Camate said: Greetings red mages!
Thanks for all of your feedback and sorry to keep you waiting! Here are a handful of responses we got from the development team in regards to your questions and requests.
Quote: Do you have any plans to enhance the viability of our sword-wielding proficiency?
As was stated in the preface of the job adjustments concept, the core concept of these adjustments is to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content. That said, we mentioned that the job adjustments will focus on party structuring, but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages. We are actually planning adjustments to red mage’s proficiencies in the upcoming version update.
Quote: Make it possible to add enfeebling effects to En-spells.
We have no plans for this at the moment. When looking at the current system, where enfeebles take place using magic and En-spells increase damage, we’re pretty satisfied with the current separation of the two.
Quote: Add higher tier En-spells.
Planning to add these during the next version update. However, this isn’t going to be the tier-III version, we are thinking about a different type of En-spell.
Quote: Add an ability that enhances the effect of En-spells.
We would like to look into perhaps having this take place through merit points.
Quote: Make it possible for red mage to use Enlight and Endark.
Enlight and Endark are special magic spells for paladin and dark knight respectively and we have no plans to add them to red mage at this time.
Quote: Get rid of the 100% enfeeble resists on some monsters.
In regards to monsters that are completely resistant to certain spells, there is a high possibility that we won’t make any significant changes. However, there aren’t really too many of these monsters, so in regards to adjustments making it possible to land enfeebling magic easier, we feel it would be better for red mage’s to experience this effect on a larger amount of monsters.
Quote: Add new enhancing magic.
Since enhancing magic is an area that red mages excel at, we would like to add something. We have been receiving a lot of ideas for enhancing magic and we will be keeping them in mind when exploring this subject.
Quote: Will red mage be able to the use the higher tier Gravity?
We are planning to make this spell a red mage-specific spell, but are continuing to evaluate it.
Quote: Allow red mages to use one-hand sword weapon skills that can only be used by certain jobs and support jobs. We also want staff weapon skills.
We will be looking into both of these along with the weapon skills revamp.
Quote: Give red mage the “Fencer” job trait!
We looked into this, however, if we were to add this it wouldn’t be a job trait. The possibility is pretty high that it would be in the form of equipment that a red mage could wear.
Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11518-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto-RDM?p=165408&viewfull=1#post165408
Mostly disappointing stuff and wasted questions. I welcome whatever Melee buffs we get (i used to melee a lot on RDM but I'm planning on an Almace for BLU and RDM), but I'm facepalming that SE is denying us Fencer as a job trait. lol@GearWeWillNeverUseOverHaste >_>
It also doesn't say much for the backline crowd. Can't say we're Enfeebling Masters if we're still getting our most powerful enfeebles resisted on HNMs. And can we just get Quick Magic, Elemental Stave-like Swords/Daggers, Regen III and Extremely useful Debuffs already? =\
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