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Summoner merits
 Quetzalcoatl.Zubis
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By Quetzalcoatl.Zubis 2011-07-24 08:16:31
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I've been out of the game for a few years and I need to re-do my merits. Mag. Atk is a given with Abyssea; but what about the other option?

1. Phys.Attack (reportedly useless)
2. Phys.Accuracy (good for soloing which I do a lot of).
3. Mag.Accuracy (I know nothing about this).

So it's down to one of the Accuracy merits - any recommendations?

I hear that at 90 magic rarely resists, so maybe Mag.Acc isn't worth it. On the other hand I have Summoner's Bracers so maybe Phys.Acc isn't worth it either.
 Bahamut.Samsonxiii
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By Bahamut.Samsonxiii 2011-07-24 08:32:14
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I did Phys Acc and MAB.
 Ifrit.Eikechi
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By Ifrit.Eikechi 2011-07-24 08:43:40
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I would think in Aby, most acc options would be useless as your atma pass on to your pet. So basically if you're using a crit physical BP like pred claws, you're gonna be giving garuda +50 dex from Razed Ruins anyways...Outside of Aby in like Voidwatch though, your acc may run into some snags, so physical acc is always a good option. Magic attack is always good as well, since every category 2 BP is magic... I would do as Samson did and max those category 1. Cat 2 is entirely up to you and your favorite Avi. I would max out Shiva's and Ramuhs personally because inside Aby, those elements seem to be favored a lot (as each are the strongest end of their respective level 3 SC)
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By Artemicion 2011-07-24 08:48:09
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Curious if PhysAtk bonus would help mitigate or possibly neutralize the Attack bonus decrease from Avatar's Favor.
But for overall consistency and utility, I'd say Physical Acc & MAB would be the way to go.
 Siren.Kunimatsu
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By Siren.Kunimatsu 2011-07-24 09:30:44
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Artemicion said:
Curious if PhysAtk bonus would help mitigate or possibly neutralize the Attack bonus decrease from Avatar's Favor.

It wouldn't, the attack reduction from favor is way more than the minimal increase 10 physical attack from merits give.

Quetzalcoatl.Zubis said:
Mag. Atk is a given with Abyssea

5/5 magic attack merits is a given both inside and out abyssea, even back at the 75 cap, it's the only thing in that category that reliably and consistently increases damage output.

Magic accuracy has never been an issue for me, ever, theres always a chance to resist but with the amount of summoning skill you can get these days, you'll have a massive macc boost when past the skill cap, capping your magic hitrate on almost anything.

Apart from Voidwatch which I haven't tried yet, if you haven't already got capped hitrate on the mob, AF legs and relic hands will most likely close the gap, giving +14 acc each. But I hear the higher tier voidwatch NMs have stupid evasion, so 5/5 physical acc is the best choice if you plan on being SMN for that, and also for whatever rapetrain mobs SE adds in the future.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Zubis 2011-07-24 11:21:23
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Thanks all, I think I'll go with the Phy.Acc.
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By Asura.Pergatory 2011-07-25 12:04:46
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Siren.Kunimatsu said:
5/5 magic attack merits is a given both inside and out abyssea, even back at the 75 cap, it's the only thing in that category that reliably and consistently increases damage output.
It does seem to be conventional wisdom, but I respectfully disagree. I went 5/5 physical accuracy & physical attack back before the Group 2 merits existed, because it was a no-brainer back then as you can imagine. When the group 2 merits came out, I was never particularly impressed. Sure they had their situational uses (against enemies with very high physical resistance like Armed Gears), but in most cases I was able to do the best damage with physical BPs. That continues today, and so I simply have never done the MAB merits. I'm still 10/10 physical, and continue to smoke every magic-using SMN I come across in damage output. There's a guy in my shell who has Lv90 Nirvana, full +2, Caller's Sash, Tires Cape, etc... and even he admits that I do more damage against pretty much all NMs we've done together.

Magic BPs do seem to work better on normal exp-level mobs. You can consistently do about 4.2-4.8k with Heavenly Strike on those. Pred Claws will spike higher into the 6k+ range (and of course higher with set bonus), but also sometimes do closer to 2-3k whereas that's very rare for Heavenly Strike. So yes, merit BPs win on consistency for exp mobs.

However, as soon as you start talking about NMs, the magic BPs take a sharp dive. Almost every NM in the game has some form of MDB to reduce magic damage, and much less reduction to their physical side. Heavenly Strike will often drop from 4.6k down to the 2k range, but Pred Claws only does a few hundred less than what it does to exp-level mobs. Also consider that if you're leaving your avatar on the enemy, their melee hits will do 3 times as much with a physical atma build as with magic build. My Garuda will often do 2k damage between BPs. Further, in case you were thinking that any TP she got would be wasted unlike a magic build, she can use TP to heal herself better so it's not wasted. Whispering Wind can heal over 500 HP.

Granted, I'm a bit of a perfectionist and have all the ideal equipment... so I'd not be surprised if magic BPs are the way to go when your equipment is still a work in progress, just due to their consistency. However, if you have good equipment and are fighting anything beyond exp-level enemies, physical BPs will likely be your best option.

I do agree that Magic Acc is totally pointless even if you do a magic build, they seem to almost never resist, and I also agree that MAB is a good option to merit. It's consistent, and useful especially in exp parties. However, I strongly disagree that it's a given. Physical is still king with the right equipment. If you have really good equipment and have been doing magic BPs all this time, I highly recommend you explore the physical side.

Voracious Violet + Razed Ruins + Gnarled Horn is the best combo I've found. For slightly higher spike damage and slightly lower consistency, go with Voracious Violet + Razed Ruins + Sanguine Scythe. For solo, do VV+RR+Ducal Guard. I've used that last combo to solo Tunga, Xibalba, Carabosse, Tristitia, Turul, and countless other NMs.
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By Phoenix.Eiryn 2011-07-25 12:19:50
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Assuming I am correct in saying that Summoning skill = avvie phys. acc and magic acc, I have gone with 5/5 phys attack, 5/5 mab. To give an idea of how this works outside of abyssea I used PC on VNMs. The t3 and t4 Nms are some of the highest level mobs in the game and garuda hit all 3 hits, 11 out of 13 BPs. In my Magic BP gear I have 430 smn skill and 421 in my physical BP gear. This is with merits and 5/5 +2. The way I see it, if you want avvie accuracy, the 8/8 smn skill merits are what you should get.
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By Cerberus.Mystina 2011-07-25 12:22:57
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I'v explored both physcial and magical side of bps, and i'm going to have to dissagree with the fact that the magical side IS far more better and consistant, heavenly strike has been reliable and consistant on almost everything i'v fought that isn't resist to magic/ice, physcial is great, yes, but the damage is far to random to be relied apon, sure you can bust ut a 5-6k PC but the other 3-7 times you get "wiffs" which is what i call doing like 800-2k damage, or much lower then avarange, where as heavenly strike has always been high and consistant 3k-5k (8k+ with set proc), now of course for magic resist NMS you want physcial as you have no choice, but for everything else, heavenly strike will prove far better.The biggest plus is that they are RANGED which keeps you out of harms way when a monster is about to come smack you in the head after your pet dies where as physcial bps need to be upclose and personal and as SMN we all love the "XXX is to far away" when you shoot off a bp givin the nm time to smack you, which just wastes time, where ranged has no worries of that and will do enough damage to always get and keep the mobs attention

Standerd MAB atmas

MM (obviously as magic BPs are not cheap you WILL need this if you actually want to win without drain your entire stock of temp items inside abyssea)

Beyond (this pretty much overpowers shiva)

Ultimate/baying moon

that combo will win and beat physcial in almost every aspect that isnt a magic resist NM, shouldn't have any resist issues unless you're one of those SMNS that just bp in whatever gear you have on at the time.

Hedejejet is a prime example of a NM you Don't want to live long and stay close as he was a very annoying solo and nothing was droping his hp, but he was a example of something magic bps will save your life on as they are ranged and he can catch up to you quick.

Outside it entirley depends on what you fight, Magic Bps are far to expensive to be relied apon, but i don't expect SMNS to know how to fully function outside anyway (not insulting you it's just how most smns are in general)
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By Siren.Kunimatsu 2011-07-25 12:34:23
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I don't disagree that physical BPs are easily capable of exceeding magic BPs I often go full physical atmas too since I have the gear to keep up without refresh atma and without spamming temps, as well as using physical outside when I know it'll spike higher than magic on the mob.

But 5/5 physical attack merits don't do much at all, Kegsay tested avatar attack formulas and found out the attack merits do little to nothing to increase an avatars damage.

I would rather have 5/5 magic attack merits so when I do require magic damage, it'll do as much damage as I can make it rather than than an extremely small boost to physical attack :/
 Cerberus.Mystina
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By Cerberus.Mystina 2011-07-25 12:38:28
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Maybe so, but neither do the Accuracy merits, due to SMN magic skill giving you more then enough accuracy needed, and SMN gets TONS of it thanks to Af3 so the question is, what else would you put them in? the lesser of 2 evils, sort of how BRDS have it for group one, both jobs after 1 merit choice nothing else is really worth meriting that will help. all personal choice.
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By Asura.Pergatory 2011-07-25 13:44:36
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Cerberus.Mystina said:
I'v explored both physcial and magical side of bps, and i'm going to have to dissagree with the fact that the magical side IS far more better and consistant, heavenly strike has been reliable and consistant on almost everything i'v fought that isn't resist to magic/ice, physcial is great, yes, but the damage is far to random to be relied apon, sure you can bust ut a 5-6k PC but the other 3-7 times you get "wiffs" which is what i call doing like 800-2k damage, or much lower then avarange
Then either your accuracy is not capped, or you aren't using the right atma. Pred Claws should be consistently in the 3-5k range MINIMUM. Mine average 4.5-6k generally. With set bonus, it goes into the 11k+ range. I've done 9k+ to NMs, including strong ones like Glavoid. You should only see less than 3k damage maybe one out of every 15-20 Pred Claws if you're doing it right. I think the reason most people under-rate physical BPs is because they throw on some decent (but not great) atmas and see a not-so-spectacular Pred Claws early on and they just say "screw it, it's too inconsistent." I would say the same if I tried Heavenly Strike with sub-optimal atmas/equipment. It's just a lot easier to reach optimal with Heavenly Strike because it's basically all in the atmas. Equipment & merits do very little to help your damage when using magic BPs.

Cerberus.Mystina said:
The biggest plus is that they are RANGED which keeps you out of harms way when a monster is about to come smack you in the head after your pet dies where as physcial bps need to be upclose and personal and as SMN we all love the "XXX is to far away" when you shoot off a bp givin the nm time to smack you, which just wastes time, where ranged has no worries of that and will do enough damage to always get and keep the mobs attention
This shouldn't be an issue either if you know what you're doing. Many SMNs using physical BPs are stuck in a rut mentality, not thinking of new ways to do things. Instead of Assault > BP, try BP > Assault. Your avatar will chase the monster while readying its BP. No more "too far away" message.

However, you are right, that sometimes it's just not worth the risk. The very example you gave, Hedjedjet, is one of the few NMs where I do actually use magical BPs. Another example is Arimaspi who can't even be hit by normal physical attacks. So yes there are situational times when you want to use magical BPs. However, physical will beat it 95% of the time. I've got all the necessary equipment/atma, and have thoroughly tried all the combos people praise on both sides of the fence. Can you honestly say the same? Because if you had, I don't think you'd be so quick to denounce physical BPs as inconsistent. Pred Claws can be amazingly consistent.

The same applies outside Abyssea. I've done well over 4k damage outside Abyssea, to exp-level mobs and above. I did a 4600 to the mother crystal in ACP11 just this weekend.
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By Cerberus.Mystina 2011-07-25 14:59:02
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Quote:
Then either your accuracy is not capped, or you aren't using the right atma. Pred Claws should be consistently in the 3-5k range MINIMUM. Mine average 4.5-6k generally. With set bonus, it goes into the 11k+ range. I've done 9k+ to NMs, including strong ones like Glavoid. You should only see less than 3k damage maybe one out of every 15-20 Pred Claws if you're doing it right. I think the reason most people under-rate physical BPs is because they throw on some decent (but not great) atmas and see a not-so-spectacular Pred Claws early on and they just say "screw it, it's too inconsistent." I would say the same if I tried Heavenly Strike with sub-optimal atmas/equipment. It's just a lot easier to reach optimal with Heavenly Strike because it's basically all in the atmas. Equipment & merits do very little to help your damage when using magic BPs.

Actually, no, my PC IS consistant enough to where it does good damage, it's just that in the same situations i would use PC heavently strike has consistantly out damaged PC since it's set damage all the time due to the fact its magic, the only real guilty issue is that i DO use MM in both set ups due tot he MP costs, i'm sure if i did sacrafice the MM for a dd atma i will pull out far bigger numbers, but it will still remain random, due to being physical damage, but i do get aggrivated everytime i see "oops" damage, sure it dosnt happen often for me but it happens, where as heavntly strike has never had that issue, this is the exact same fights i have done with both physcial and magic set up, the magic has won in pretty much every fight, as i said, unless of course it's resistant to ice. i am not saying DON'T ever use physcial, it's just my fights have been far more faster and safer with the magic set up as opposed to relying on garuda for everything, this is of course assuming you fully merit Heavenly strike. Of course it is all in the atmas, you do need heavy MAB to keep the numbers that high, you would actualyl do more with a 3rd MAB atma, which will seal the deal, but due to the heavy MP cost of the merited BPS you will drain Mp very fast.


Quote:
This shouldn't be an issue either if you know what you're doing. Many SMNs using physical BPs are stuck in a rut mentality, not thinking of new ways to do things. Instead of Assault > BP, try BP > Assault. Your avatar will chase the monster while readying its BP. No more "too far away" message.

I don;t really have that issue actually, because i can usually time the BP to where it will hit them as they are running for me if physcial is needed, to far away for me only really happens if its a fast mob, or it stoped to cast as it was running, etc.

Quote:
However, you are right, that sometimes it's just not worth the risk. The very example you gave, Hedjedjet, is one of the few NMs where I do actually use magical BPs. Another example is Arimaspi who can't even be hit by normal physical attacks. So yes there are situational times when you want to use magical BPs. However, physical will beat it 95% of the time. I've got all the necessary equipment/atma, and have thoroughly tried all the combos people praise on both sides of the fence. Can you honestly say the same? Because if you had, I don't think you'd be so quick to denounce physical BPs as inconsistent. Pred Claws can be amazingly consistent.

Well, here is where you got me, because i , in all honesty have never seen a good SMN, at least one that understands the job, most SMNS i see just toss out garuda, PC with 2-3x Refresh atmas and call it a day, so i can't say i'v had experiance with OTHER good smns because quite frankly, i don't know any... but i am basing all this off my own experience, but it has not dissapointed me so far. i do use both sides when appropriate but i just prefer the magic side more due to quicker kills. every smn has there own style, but givin how rare good smns are, my hopes aren't exactly high.

Quote:
The same applies outside Abyssea. I've done well over 4k damage outside Abyssea, to exp-level mobs and above. I did a 4600 to the mother crystal in ACP11 just this weekend.

Well it's nice to see it works for you. outside you indeed would prefer the physcial side since you don't get big MAB options, and of course the mother crystal is a NM that resists magic, i havn't really "disowned" physcial style, i still use it mind you, but just in very few situations. But due to my other jobs heavy damage output i don't get to play with smn as much as i used to these days. because i'v had no need to solo just recently, became very addicted to rng.
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By Asura.Pergatory 2011-07-25 16:45:57
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Cerberus.Mystina said:
i DO use MM in both set ups due tot he MP costs
Yep, this is your issue right here. In order for physical to beat out magical, you really do need equal number of DD atmas. Minikin is a magical DD atma, it has INT+50. It's the equivalent of Voracious Violet for physical DD. So you're comparing magic damage with 3 magic DD atmas to physical damage with 2 physical DD and 1 magical DD atma.

If you get all the latest & greatest equipment, you don't need Minikin at all. You can stay self-sufficient without any refresh atmas. That's kind of a crucial point for physical DD which I should've mentioned, so I'm glad you thought of it. If you need Minikin to keep MP up, magical may indeed hold a strong advantage for that reason.

Cerberus.Mystina said:
you would actualyl do more with a 3rd MAB atma, which will seal the deal, but due to the heavy MP cost of the merited BPS you will drain Mp very fast.
Actually you might be surprised how much that INT+50 is doing for you. I've tried going from Ultimate+Beyond+Minikin to Ultimate+Beyond+Baying Moon, and my Heavenly Strike damage was almost exactly the same. And yes, I do have 5/5 Heavenly Strike, as well as the Pet:MAB+12 magian staff and all the other goodies.

Cerberus.Mystina said:
I don;t really have that issue actually, because i can usually time the BP to where it will hit them as they are running for me if physcial is needed, to far away for me only really happens if its a fast mob, or it stoped to cast as it was running, etc.
Yeah if you're attentive you can pull that off as well. The Assault trick is nice for those cases like you said where it stops to cast and throws off your prediction of where it would be, or whatnot. You're right though that sometimes it can still be risky, and it's easier (like in Hedjedjet soloing) so just hit Heavenly Strike as you're running away and you don't have to think about it. Pred Claws is a little more finicky, you have to be more deliberate about timing and all that. Hard to do if you're desperately trying to escape impending death. Magic BPs definitely have the advantage there.

Cerberus.Mystina said:
Well, here is where you got me, because i , in all honesty have never seen a good SMN, at least one that understands the job, most SMNS i see just toss out garuda, PC with 2-3x Refresh atmas and call it a day, so i can't say i'v had experiance with OTHER good smns because quite frankly, i don't know any...
Ugh, I can definitely relate here. There are a lot of SMNs out there, and very few who honestly take the job seriously. So yeah, that can definitely taint your experiences a bit. :(
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By Asura.Miyara 2011-07-25 23:15:44
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I did 5/5 on phys and magic attack. With max summoning skill (and assuming some gear on top of that) you'll get enough accuracy bonuses from those that you'll rarely miss. Inside and outside abyssea I only miss on some of the most evasive of mobs, and even then it's more of a once in a great while miss, rather than anything recurring.
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By Leviathan.Matteh 2011-07-25 23:20:56
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i did Magic Attack on my smn but noticed very little difference, hardly if any in merit bp attacks. after droping them my bp merit attacks stayed the same. with SMN skill at 404 (uncaped) my merit bp's dontlack in dmg outside aby and remain consitant for being outside aby and the same for when in aby under aby atma buffs. Went with Phy ATT and Phy ACC + RR + Garuda = fun times. just my two cents. try both. merits too easy to make.
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By Bismarck.Altar 2011-07-25 23:29:54
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How are you keeping your mp up without a refresh atma? Especially with Wards/Rages taking like 250 mp every 45 secs...
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By Cerberus.Quipto 2011-07-25 23:30:25
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Wasn't there extensive testing done a few years back showing that avatar's physical accuracy capped around the 70% mark? Therefore making physical acc merits useless since there is plent of skill+ and acc+ gear to get to that mark.
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By Leviathan.Matteh 2011-07-25 23:42:18
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Could skip avatar phy acc if you plan to get all the phy acc gear for smn. However i consider voidwatch as a possiable place for it to be part of as well and most of those nm's require to be using ACC food as a melee job so why not just throw in phy acc so thats les phy acc you have to wear?

its been sorta debated in this thread



Can read here for more futher testing results. Very long page, dont be on a slow connection





EDIT: Added More
 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2011-07-26 03:23:28
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Bismarck.Altar said:
How are you keeping your mp up without a refresh atma? Especially with Wards/Rages taking like 250 mp every 45 secs...

With af3+2 and some of the avatar staves (i have wind and dark), along with convert, refresh, or sublimation, and elemental siphon, I don't run out of mp. Only when I'm soloing can it ever be a problem and even then I've never run out of mp I just have to manage it a bit differently.

Try 3 DD atmas, you will be surprised with how many bp's you can do without running out of mp.
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-07-26 03:27:55
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Leviathan.Matteh said:
However i consider voidwatch as a possiable place for it to be part of as well and most of those nm's require to be using ACC food as a melee job so why not just throw in phy acc so thats les phy acc you have to wear?

I can't read what you posted really my connection's been pretty bad tonight however...

In Voidwatch, if you really need the accuracy, you'd probably be using Spinning Dive, and ignoring pclaws completely. Or using magic pacts.
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By Siren.Kunimatsu 2011-07-26 04:49:54
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Well since physical attack & acc merits are useless, the obvious choice would be

5/5 magic attack
5/5 Elemental spirit cost

Less MP drain if you end up going over a tick while siphoning, and you can keep lightspirit up easily for super wtf healing ability!
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By Asura.Pergatory 2011-07-26 10:22:36
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Siren.Kunimatsu said:
Well since physical attack & acc merits are useless, the obvious choice would be

5/5 magic attack
5/5 Elemental spirit cost

Less MP drain if you end up going over a tick while siphoning, and you can keep lightspirit up easily for super wtf healing ability!
Ha ha ha very funny
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By Shiva.Alistrianna 2011-08-06 23:22:58
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Cerberus.Quipto said:
Wasn't there extensive testing done a few years back showing that avatar's physical accuracy capped around the 70% mark? Therefore making physical acc merits useless since there is plent of skill+ and acc+ gear to get to that mark.

You are probably referring to the testing that showed physical BP accuracy to be a minmum of 70% regardless of monster evasion.