It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
Just for the record, I'm not saying I dislike them because of their beliefs. I don't think you have to be intelligent to be a kind, well-intentioned person. Faith is a system of belief based on the denial of observation, though, and observation and adjustment are the core of intelligence. One of the sweetest, most generous, most important people in my life is a person of faith. I love her to death, and wouldn't trade her for the world. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that I ultimately can't rely on her to make sound, rational decisions all the time. She believes things without support or the lack thereof, and as wonderful as the rest of her qualities may be, I don't pretend she isn't missing something that I find tremendously important to being an intelligent person.
And ultimately what it comes down to is that these people choose not to use the mechanism they were given to make rational choices. They're more than entitled to make their own decisions, they're just, well, not. In science, and critical thinking in general, you don't wait for what's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, you side with what makes the most sense. Supreme being controlling the universe doesn't make the most sense, by an incredibly large margin.
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
Just for the record, I'm not saying I dislike them because of their beliefs. I don't think you have to be intelligent to be a kind, well-intentioned person. Faith is a system of belief based on the denial of observation, though, and observation and adjustment are the core of intelligence. One of the sweetest, most generous, most important people in my life is a person of faith. I love her to death, and wouldn't trade her for the world. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that I ultimately can't rely on her to make sound, rational decisions all the time. She believes things without support or the lack thereof, and as wonderful as the rest of her qualities may be, I don't pretend she isn't missing something that I find tremendously important to being an intelligent person.
And ultimately what it comes down to is that these people choose not to use the mechanism they were given to make rational choices. They're more than entitled to make their own decisions, they're just, well, not. In science, and critical thinking in general, you don't wait for what's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, you side with what makes the most sense. Supreme being controlling the universe doesn't make the most sense, by an incredibly large margin.
Although I can mostly agree with what you're saying, and how you feel about it. I don't think someone believing in any god, makes them any less intelligent. It's one simple idea smashed into most peoples head at a very young age, some of us can see how inaccurate and archaic the bible and biblical rules are, while others just accept that there is a divine being.
OH MY GOD...
And people wonder why the world goes the wrong way.
People who thinks god.. well a God... well "something" exists are not more or less intelligent than other people... I just think they're idiot because they let other people (Religious autority) telling them how they have to think about this "God". When people will think about religion and about all other thing by their own perhaps the world will go better
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
The problem is that its not up to us to disprove it. Its up to those who believe it to prove it. That's where the burden of proof lies.
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
The problem is that its not up to us to disprove it. Its up to those who believe it to prove it. That's where the burden of proof lies.
Who says they have to prove it? It's up to the individual whether or not they believe . Again, faith means to believe in something regardless of whether there's any proof or not.
@Dodu, where I disagree with you is this: "Faith is a system of belief based on the denial of observation." I don't think that's at all accurate, since as I said, you can't prove that anyone's religion is wrong, so what observation are they supposed to be denying? What I don't understand, is why you think you can't trust someone because they believe in god? Do you think that if they found you dying by the side of the road they'd pray for you instead of calling an ambulance, then claim that god works in mysterious ways when no help arrived?
Just because someone believes in god, don't mistake that for them discounting science or denial of anything.
"I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."
-Albert Einstein
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
The problem is that its not up to us to disprove it. Its up to those who believe it to prove it. That's where the burden of proof lies.
Who says they have to prove it? It's up to the individual whether or not they believe . Again, faith means to believe in something regardless of whether there's any proof or not.
They don't have to prove it, but personally I think it's a tad bit silly to go around tooting your horn on how the sky man is a good guy and he made us all and so we should worship him in every breath when we have no actual proof of the sky man.
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
The problem is that its not up to us to disprove it. Its up to those who believe it to prove it. That's where the burden of proof lies.
Who says they have to prove it? It's up to the individual whether or not they believe . Again, faith means to believe in something regardless of whether there's any proof or not.
They don't have to prove it, but personally I think it's a tad bit silly to go around tooting your horn on how the sky man is a good guy and he made us all and so we should worship him in every breath when we have no actual proof of the sky man.
How about tooting your horn on how you are intellectually superior and how religious people are stupid?
That is what the majority of atheists on this forum do.
Edit x3 because apparently I suck at quoting this morning.
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
The problem is that its not up to us to disprove it. Its up to those who believe it to prove it. That's where the burden of proof lies.
Who says they have to prove it? It's up to the individual whether or not they believe . Again, faith means to believe in something regardless of whether there's any proof or not.
They don't have to prove it, but personally I think it's a tad bit silly to go around tooting your horn on how the sky man is a good guy and he made us all and so we should worship him in every breath when we have no actual proof of the sky man.
I think it's equally as silly to toot your horn about a lack of faith, when religion is highly subjective.
Didn't read whole thread, and typically I don't respond to these though I lurk them... I think both sides have shot the dead horse a comical amount of times.
Anyway, I don't believe in any higher being of the creationist sense, but I'm more on the side of religion than atheism simply for the vast amount of literature every religion has given us. Reading the Bible is a lot like reading or simply enjoying Norse or Greek mythology; and we do that by playing videogames. The Bible has just as much ridiculous firebreathing sword-mouthed Jesus imagery than the other mythologies do, it's pretty cool. Your favourite bosses in Castlevania are straight Christianity (among others of course).
Most people who are anti-religion always claim that religion is shoved down their throats, and this is my biggest gripe. I haven't actually seen a lot of evidence, such as a personal encounter that affected one's life detrimentally, let alone actual realistic statistical information that church + state have actually set us back a great deal in modern times.
I went to Catholic school (which is just public school with a religion class, that also touches on world religions quite prominently). I don't know if a lot of atheists did, but I can't seriously find a good example of a religious person pushing their agenda down someone's throat. There's sensationalist news stories of crazy nuts on the street saying the world is going to end - but I've seen FFXIAH's reaction to typical sensationalist news and I am confident they can see that it is that and only that.
Did an encounter with a Mormon at the door or waiting for the bus really affect you atheists THAT much? I like when people at work or random others discuss their line of work, personal experiences, anecdotes, routine at the gym, etc. etc. It is merely another 'like' of that religious person and they are discussing it with you. Granted, they sometimes do it a little creepy. Anti-religion is a bandwagon much like other 'enlightened' fads like the hipster crowd. I apologize for that bad and offensive analogy.
Why bother protesting something so deeply? Lemmy from Motorhead's dad was a priest who left around the time Lemmy was born, so Lemmy is anti-religion. That's a decent personal preference. Can I hear more like this so that I can see a point to atheist rants?
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
The problem is that its not up to us to disprove it. Its up to those who believe it to prove it. That's where the burden of proof lies.
Who says they have to prove it? It's up to the individual whether or not they believe . Again, faith means to believe in something regardless of whether there's any proof or not.
They don't have to prove it, but personally I think it's a tad bit silly to go around tooting your horn on how the sky man is a good guy and he made us all and so we should worship him in every breath when we have no actual proof of the sky man.
I think it's equally as silly to toot your horn about a lack of faith, when religion is highly subjective.
Does that make all self confessed Atheists silly?
You're allowed to think so, just as I'm allowed to think that by definition religion is silly.
What don't most of you understand about the importance of critical thought? Its literally the building block of the intelligent decision. This isn't an issue exclusive to religion. The Tea Party Movement? That's the result of a handful of powerful, uncritical people telling a vast amount of uncritical people X and Y, with them lacking the critical thinking abilities to think through the ***. This isn't an example of the slippery slope fallacy. Uncritical thought is slide down the vertical edge of a mountain. Inability to see the lack of basis in religious doctrine directly equates to the inability to see the lack of basis in every other important aspect of life. Its the foundation of religious belief that makes it so dangerous and counterproductive to society.
You can tell me I've got some sort of intellectual superiority complex if you'd like, but as I've made quite plain, I don't claim to be in possession of some secret that only a few are privy to, I just choose to use my powers of skepticism and critical observation.
And you should really learn more about Einstein if you're going use his quotes as any sort of basis for retort. He, much like Hawking, are notorious for using "God" in a much different way than theists. Its even got its own name.
It's called faith. What you say makes perfect sense, but it also kinda discounts peoples right to decide for themselves. It's scientifically impossible to prove that something doesn't exist, so there's not now, nor will there ever be any evidence against religion.
The problem is that its not up to us to disprove it. Its up to those who believe it to prove it. That's where the burden of proof lies.
Who says they have to prove it? It's up to the individual whether or not they believe . Again, faith means to believe in something regardless of whether there's any proof or not.
They don't have to prove it, but personally I think it's a tad bit silly to go around tooting your horn on how the sky man is a good guy and he made us all and so we should worship him in every breath when we have no actual proof of the sky man.
I think it's equally as silly to toot your horn about a lack of faith, when religion is highly subjective.
Does that make all self confessed Atheists silly?
You're allowed to think so, just as I'm allowed to think that by definition religion is silly.
Anti-religion is no more a bandwagon as religion was.
It's humans that have the superiority complex, thinking that we're so special. I like Dodu am only armed with skepticism and observation in which I make my own beliefs. I'm not proud nor sad to be an atheist.
Atheist do not all act in one way, just like christians aren't all fundamentalists.
What don't most of you understand about the importance of critical thought? Its literally the building block of the intelligent decision. This isn't an issue exclusive to religion. The Tea Party Movement? That's the result of a handful of powerful, uncritical people telling a vast amount of uncritical people X and Y, with them lacking the critical thinking abilities to think through the ***. This isn't an example of the slippery slope fallacy. Uncritical thought is slide down the vertical edge of a mountain. Inability to see the lack of basis in religious doctrine directly equates to the inability to see the lack of basis in every other important aspect of life. Its the foundation of religious belief that makes it so dangerous and counterproductive to society. You can tell me I've got some sort of intellectual superiority complex if you'd like, but as I've made quite plain, I don't claim to be in possession of some secret that only a few are privy to, I just choose to use my powers of skepticism and critical observation. And you should really learn more about Einstein if you're going use his quotes as any sort of basis for retort. He, much like Hawking, are notorious for using "God" in a much different way than theists. Its even got its own name.
Enlightening people isn't for self-proclaimed intellects on videogame forums. Unless it's about the math behind a gameplay mechanic.
But I agree with you fully, and I'm not attacking you or your reason for protest. It's just, unfortunately the way things are... well, there are stupid people. And... there always will be. Human rights have made survival of the fittest an outdated and untrue phrase. Deal with it, be smart, and do your best in life to use that intellectual decision-making power of yours to have a successful home and family. Don't waste it on enlightening a forum, online or offline.
Edit: while critical thought might be the building block of intelligent decision, intelligent decision isn't necessarily the building block for the solution of all of life's problems. Stupid people get by just fine and even better in a lot of cases.
Anti-religion is no more a bandwagon as religion was.
It's humans that have the superiority complex, thinking that we're so special. I like Dodu am only armed with skepticism and observation in which I make my own beliefs. I'm not proud nor sad to be an atheist.
Atheist do not all act in one way, just like christians aren't all fundamentalists.
I'm actually embarrassed by association when I see religious nuts or pretentious atheists.
What don't most of you understand about the importance of critical thought? Its literally the building block of the intelligent decision. This isn't an issue exclusive to religion. The Tea Party Movement? That's the result of a handful of powerful, uncritical people telling a vast amount of uncritical people X and Y, with them lacking the critical thinking abilities to think through the ***. This isn't an example of the slippery slope fallacy. Uncritical thought is slide down the vertical edge of a mountain. Inability to see the lack of basis in religious doctrine directly equates to the inability to see the lack of basis in every other important aspect of life. Its the foundation of religious belief that makes it so dangerous and counterproductive to society. You can tell me I've got some sort of intellectual superiority complex if you'd like, but as I've made quite plain, I don't claim to be in possession of some secret that only a few are privy to, I just choose to use my powers of skepticism and critical observation. And you should really learn more about Einstein if you're going use his quotes as any sort of basis for retort. He, much like Hawking, are notorious for using "God" in a much different way than theists. Its even got its own name.
Enlightening people isn't for self-proclaimed intellects on videogame forums. Unless it's about the math behind a gameplay mechanic.
But I agree with you fully, and I'm not attacking you or your reason for protest. It's just, unfortunately the way things are... well, there are stupid people. And... there always will be. Human rights have made survival of the fittest an outdated and untrue phrase. Deal with it, be smart, and do your best in life to use that intellectual decision-making power of yours to have a successful home and family. Don't waste it on enlightening a forum, online or offline.
Imo the whole atheism/theism deal is just too *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE to be relevant. They're like, an infinite paradox that never stops.
(Pictured: Anything involving Religion/Atheism)
Also pictured: Theism/Atheism.
Can humanity move on, please?
Phoenix.Vael said:
Enlightening people isn't for self-proclaimed intellects on videogame forums. Unless it's about the math behind a gameplay mechanic.
But I agree with you fully, and I'm not attacking you or your reason for protest. It's just, unfortunately the way things are... well, there are stupid people. And... there always will be. Human rights have made survival of the fittest an outdated and untrue phrase. Deal with it, be smart, and do your best in life to use that intellectual decision-making power of yours to have a successful home and family. Don't waste it on enlightening a forum, online or offline.
Edit: while critical thought might be the building block of intelligent decision, intelligent decision isn't necessarily the building block for the solution of all of life's problems. Stupid people get by just fine and even better in a lot of cases.
I feel my spiritual beliefs are private and don't discuss them with anyone unless specifically asked, I find it offensive when believers AND nonbelievers push it down your throats. You believe? FANTASTIC! You don't believe? FANTASTIC TOO! Gowai and stop judging how I live and believe :3
If I do not affect YOUR life with MY personal choices, what does it really matter to anyone, anyways? =/
I feel my spiritual beliefs are private and don't discuss them with anyone unless specifically asked, I find it offensive when believers AND nonbelievers push it down your throats. You believe? FANTASTIC! You don't believe? FANTASTIC TOO! Gowai and stop judging how I live and believe :3
I feel my spiritual beliefs are private and don't discuss them with anyone unless specifically asked, I find it offensive when believers AND nonbelievers push it down your throats. You believe? FANTASTIC! You don't believe? FANTASTIC TOO! Gowai and stop judging how I live and believe :3
If I do not affect YOUR life with MY personal choices, what does it really matter to anyone, anyways? =/
Quote for truth.
I'm the exact same way. I seem to pick on atheists more, but recently I've found atheists the vocal majority.
Even the most stridently religious of you is an atheist towards Ra, the Sun God. You're atheist about Quetzalcoatl, Athena, Saturn, Zeus, Odin, or any other of the thousands and millions of gods and goddesses who have come and gone throughout human history.
And you don't give them a single waking moment of thought or careful contemplation to their non-existence. You do not engage in "the religion of not believing in Imahmana Viracocha." There are no weekly meetings. There's no political movement. You just don't give it any consideration whatsoever.
Atheists are precisely the same way -- they just add one more god to the list.
Not even Christopher Hitchens (the most publicly virulent anti-religious person I can recall offhand) wants to outlaw religion, nor would consider a religious person an impossibly flawed, evil being who does not deserve to hold elected office or be invited into one's house. He just wants religion to leave him alone.
Yet the stigma against atheists in our society is so strong, publicly proclaiming yourself to be one is akin to proclaiming yourself an agent of Lucifer. It is impossible to achieve any elected office in this country after such a pronouncement. Many studies have shown that the hatred towards atheists in this country is more widespread and vitriolic than even the hatred towards militant Islam.
So please, don't equate the two.
Once again, Jaerik hits the nail on the head so thoroughly that I can't think of anything to add.
I'm glad I live in Sweden for this reason. Most people here aren't religious so it doesn't matter if you're an atheist :/ We don't have many hardcore believers either and religious people don't condemn you for not believing. (Well there was one crazy woman that came up to me and told me to repent and to accept Jesus before it was too late lol >_> I hadn't even said anything, I was just sitting on a bench)
The reason I quoted Einstein is because by your logic, he, as a believer in god, was completely incapable of critical thought. Maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're saying "believes in god = stupid." There are certainly religious nutjobs whose beliefs completely blind them to reason or rational thinking, but you seem to be very closed minded to the fact that it's possible to believe in god AND be a rational thinker. But again, maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point.
Phoenix.Fredjan said:
Leviathan.Angelskiss said:
I feel my spiritual beliefs are private and don't discuss them with anyone unless specifically asked, I find it offensive when believers AND nonbelievers push it down your throats. You believe? FANTASTIC! You don't believe? FANTASTIC TOO! Gowai and stop judging how I live and believe :3
Even the most stridently religious of you is an atheist towards Ra, the Sun God. You're atheist about Quetzalcoatl, Athena, Saturn, Zeus, Odin, or any other of the thousands and millions of gods and goddesses who have come and gone throughout human history.
And you don't give them a single waking moment of thought or careful contemplation to their non-existence. You do not engage in "the religion of not believing in Imahmana Viracocha." There are no weekly meetings. There's no political movement. You just don't give it any consideration whatsoever.
Atheists are precisely the same way -- they just add one more god to the list.
Not even Christopher Hitchens (the most publicly virulent anti-religious person I can recall offhand) wants to outlaw religion, nor would consider a religious person an impossibly flawed, evil being who does not deserve to hold elected office or be invited into one's house. He just wants religion to leave him alone.
Yet the stigma against atheists in our society is so strong, publicly proclaiming yourself to be one is akin to proclaiming yourself an agent of Lucifer. It is impossible to achieve any elected office in this country after such a pronouncement. Many studies have shown that the hatred towards atheists in this country is more widespread and vitriolic than even the hatred towards militant Islam.
So please, don't equate the two.
Once again, Jaerik hits the nail on the head so thoroughly that I can't think of anything to add.
His opening line is the one I love. While the rest is great to support his idea, the first line is the best.
"You're all atheists already. Every one of you."
I may have to change my quote to that now.
It's about time Jaerik said something inspirational and insightful versus the usual bipartisan statements in which people usually jump on the agree with him bandwagon.
The reason I quoted Einstein is because by your logic, he, as a believer in god, was completely incapable of critical thought. Maybe I'm just completely misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're saying "believes in god = stupid." There are certainly religious nutjobs whose beliefs completely blind them to reason or rational thinking, but you seem to be very closed minded to the fact that it's possible to believe in god AND be a rational thinker. But again, maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point.
Einstein was an atheist. As is Hawking. Both use the word "God" to mean something radically different than most theists understand the word.
Even the most stridently religious of you is an atheist towards Ra, the Sun God. You're atheist about Quetzalcoatl, Athena, Saturn, Zeus, Odin, or any other of the thousands and millions of gods and goddesses who have come and gone throughout human history.
And you don't give them a single waking moment of thought or careful contemplation to their non-existence. You do not engage in "the religion of not believing in Imahmana Viracocha." There are no weekly meetings. There's no political movement. You just don't give it any consideration whatsoever.
Atheists are precisely the same way -- they just add one more god to the list.
Not even Christopher Hitchens (the most publicly virulent anti-religious person I can recall offhand) wants to outlaw religion, nor would consider a religious person an impossibly flawed, evil being who does not deserve to hold elected office or be invited into one's house. He just wants religion to leave him alone.
Yet the stigma against atheists in our society is so strong, publicly proclaiming yourself to be one is akin to proclaiming yourself an agent of Lucifer. It is impossible to achieve any elected office in this country after such a pronouncement. Many studies have shown that the hatred towards atheists in this country is more widespread and vitriolic than even the hatred towards militant Islam.
So please, don't equate the two.
Remora.Dodu said:
Not that I'm interested in discussing whether I personally am for or against declarations of non-theism, but genuine belief in the supernatural requires a large deficiency in one's ability to think critically. If inability to think critically doesn't make you an idiot, I'm not really sure what does.
At the very least, I think drastically less of the intellectual capacity of anyone that can be swayed into believing something without any factional reasoning behind it.
these two things made my *** day, and that and to quote Pat Condell, aggressive atheism is really defensive atheism.
